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Re: Braiding trim

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  • Luiseach@aol.com
    You might want to try some of the flat kumihimo braids that can be made on a card. They have the advantage of curving around seams, necklines, etc. better
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 5, 2006
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      You might want to try some of the flat kumihimo braids that can be made on a
      card. They have the advantage of curving around seams, necklines, etc.
      better than an inkle-woven or card-woven piece.

      Luighseach


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Aliskye
      Hey Luighseach! Can you recommend some good basic (easy :) kumihimo books? I m having fun with one of the patterns and want to learn a few more. regards,
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 8, 2006
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        Hey Luighseach!

        Can you recommend some good basic (easy :) kumihimo books? I'm having
        fun with one of the patterns and want to learn a few more.

        regards,

        aliskye
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Luiseach@... wrote:
        >
        > You might want to try some of the flat kumihimo braids > Luighseach
      • J. May
        Hello Aliskye, From your original question, it sounded like you wanted a trim appropriate for the garb you were making. I no longer have the original post
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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          Hello Aliskye,

          From your original question, it sounded like you wanted a trim appropriate
          for the garb you were making. I no longer have the original post where you
          ask for help, but I got the impression that you were doing Western European
          garb and it was a later period than tablet weaving was appropriate for. To
          my understanding, kumihimo is exclusively a Japanese decoration, and
          wouldn't be found on clothing in Europe. I'm not suggestion you don't play
          with it, I just don't believe it's the best answer to your original
          question.

          Samia
        • Chris Laning
          ... Actually I don t think that s quite the case. Kumihimo is basically a technique that makes it easier to do long, complex multi-stranded braids with even
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 9, 2006
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            At 9:16 AM -0600 12/9/06, J. May wrote:
            >From your original question, it sounded like you wanted a trim appropriate
            >for the garb you were making. I no longer have the original post where you
            >ask for help, but I got the impression that you were doing Western European
            >garb and it was a later period than tablet weaving was appropriate for. To
            >my understanding, kumihimo is exclusively a Japanese decoration, and
            >wouldn't be found on clothing in Europe.

            Actually I don't think that's quite the case. Kumihimo is basically a
            technique that makes it easier to do long, complex multi-stranded
            braids with even tension, and it has the added advantage that it's
            easy to put the work down and pick it up again -- something that's
            much harder to do if you were just working the same braid in your
            hands. Unlike finger-looped braids, you can't tell from analyzing a
            _finished_ kumihimo braid that it was made using kumihimo, rather
            than some other method -- the structure is identical to what you'd
            get if you braided it in your fingers. (That is, assuming you could
            manage sixteen or twenty or thirty-two strands in your fingers at
            all.)

            There's also a theory that what we now call "kumihimo" is actually a
            technique that originally came into Japan from European sailors, who
            may have used a similar stand-and-bobbins approach to complex braids.
            I don't know if there's good evidence for this, however.

            But since kumihimo isn't the only way to produce the same braids,
            there certainly could be complex multi-strand braiding used on
            European garments (I don't know if there is). Kumihimo might well
            _not_ be the way that those European braids were produced in period,
            but it would certainly be practical.
            --
            ____________________________________________________________

            O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
            + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
            http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
            ____________________________________________________________
          • Greg Lindahl
            ... But fingerloop braiding is documented to Europe. So talking about kumihimo without mentioning fingerloop braids (until this email) isn t very good when the
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 10, 2006
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              On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 05:06:07PM -0800, Chris Laning wrote:

              > Unlike finger-looped braids, you can't tell from analyzing a
              > _finished_ kumihimo braid that it was made using kumihimo, rather
              > than some other method -- the structure is identical to what you'd
              > get if you braided it in your fingers.

              But fingerloop braiding is documented to Europe. So talking about
              kumihimo without mentioning fingerloop braids (until this email) isn't
              very good when the question was about Europe. I'm not trying to be
              combative here, I just tend to assume that anyone asking questions on
              an Authentic list is going to want to know the most relevant answer.

              > (That is, assuming you could manage sixteen or twenty or thirty-two
              > strands in your fingers at all.)

              Most fingerloop braid recipes involve an odd number of fingers. For
              larger counts, 2 (or even 3) people work together.

              > There's also a theory that what we now call "kumihimo" is actually a
              > technique that originally came into Japan from European sailors, who
              > may have used a similar stand-and-bobbins approach to complex braids.
              > I don't know if there's good evidence for this, however.

              Well, there's evidence of finger braiding in the 15th, 16th, and 17th
              centuries, and no evidence of using a device. There is bobbin lace,
              but it's quite different from kumihimo.

              See http://fingerloop.org/ for more info on fingerloop braids.

              -- Gregory
            • Chris Laning
              ... Sorry, not knowing a good term to distinguish fingerloop braiding from braiding which is done by hand but NOT the fingerlooped kind , I was trying to use
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 10, 2006
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                At 9:27 AM -0800 12/10/06, Greg Lindahl wrote:
                >On Sat, Dec 09, 2006 at 05:06:07PM -0800, Chris Laning wrote:
                >
                >> Unlike finger-looped braids, you can't tell from analyzing a
                >> _finished_ kumihimo braid that it was made using kumihimo, rather
                >> than some other method -- the structure is identical to what you'd
                >> get if you braided it in your fingers.
                >
                >But fingerloop braiding is documented to Europe. So talking about
                >kumihimo without mentioning fingerloop braids (until this email) isn't
                >very good when the question was about Europe. I'm not trying to be
                >combative here, I just tend to assume that anyone asking questions on
                >an Authentic list is going to want to know the most relevant answer.

                Sorry, not knowing a good term to distinguish fingerloop braiding
                from "braiding which is done by hand but NOT the fingerlooped kind",
                I was trying to use "finger braiding" as that term. Clearly that's
                confusing. How about calling it "single-strand braiding" since it
                doesn't use loops?

                Granted, fingerloop braids are well documented to Europe. What I
                _don't_ know is whether single-strand braiding is equally well
                documented. (I suppose I could go looking on some of the narrow-wares
                mailing lists and ask.) Currently, fingerloop braiding is the more
                "famous" type among historical-clothing aficionados, but that by
                itself doesn't prove that it was more common historically than the
                single-strand type.

                > > (That is, assuming you could manage sixteen or twenty or thirty-two
                >> strands in your fingers at all.)
                >
                >Most fingerloop braid recipes involve an odd number of fingers. For
                >larger counts, 2 (or even 3) people work together.

                Oops, sorry, I was talking about single-strand braids there.

                > > There's also a theory that what we now call "kumihimo" is actually a
                >> technique that originally came into Japan from European sailors, who
                >> may have used a similar stand-and-bobbins approach to complex braids.
                >> I don't know if there's good evidence for this, however.
                >
                >Well, there's evidence of finger braiding in the 15th, 16th, and 17th
                >centuries, and no evidence of using a device. There is bobbin lace,
                >but it's quite different from kumihimo.

                I'm not sure I'd be so quick to say there was *no* evidence of using
                a device, when I know the "sailor theory" is circulating and it is
                likely to be based on _something_. It's not one of my major research
                areas, but I admit to being curious about what it is based on.

                And we do know that single-strand braiding with bobbins was well
                known before the Middle Ages: it's discussed in Margrethe Hald's
                _Ancient Danish textiles from bogs and burials_.

                --
                ____________________________________________________________

                O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                ____________________________________________________________
              • Sandra Dodd
                -=-about calling it single-strand braiding -=- But it uses more than one strand. Single strand braiding reminds me of slicing leather and twisting the
                Message 7 of 11 , Dec 11, 2006
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                  -=-about calling it "single-strand braiding"-=-

                  But it uses more than one strand. <g>

                  Single strand braiding reminds me of slicing leather and twisting the
                  intact end in and out to make a braid that still fastened on each
                  end. Mystery braid.

                  AElflaed

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Aliskye
                  ... appropriate ... where you ... European ... for. To ... don t play ... Hi Samia, I don t think I was the one who asked the original question (but lord knows
                  Message 8 of 11 , Dec 12, 2006
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "J. May" <mnmay@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Aliskye,
                    >
                    > From your original question, it sounded like you wanted a trim
                    appropriate
                    > for the garb you were making. I no longer have the original post
                    where you
                    > ask for help, but I got the impression that you were doing Western
                    European
                    > garb and it was a later period than tablet weaving was appropriate
                    for. To
                    > my understanding, kumihimo is exclusively a Japanese decoration, and
                    > wouldn't be found on clothing in Europe. I'm not suggestion you
                    don't play
                    > with it, I just don't believe it's the best answer to your original
                    > question.
                    >
                    > Samia

                    Hi Samia,

                    I don't think I was the one who asked the original question (but lord
                    knows I'm not sure what I had for breakfast this morning.) My area
                    of interest is primarily Elizabethan but I think a lot of the narrow
                    ware braids (fingerloop braiding, tablet weaving and kumihimo) give
                    pretty much the same result and it wouldn't be noticable if I used
                    one or the other as decoration.

                    In any case, I'm enjoying doing the kumihimo for simple braids for
                    award cords, but would love to learn some new patterns.

                    regards,

                    aliskye
                    >
                  • Aliskye
                    ... What about lucets? I thought those dated back to the Viking era (though I ve never really seen the solid evidence of this.) regards, aliskye
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 12, 2006
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@...> wrote:

                      > Well, there's evidence of finger braiding in the 15th, 16th, and 17th
                      > centuries, and no evidence of using a device. There is bobbin lace,
                      > but it's quite different from kumihimo.
                      >
                      > See http://fingerloop.org/ for more info on fingerloop braids.
                      >
                      > -- Gregory

                      What about lucets? I thought those dated back to the Viking era
                      (though I've never really seen the solid evidence of this.)

                      regards,

                      aliskye
                    • Ghita Amati
                      ... lord ... Actually...I asked the original question...but hey...Ive learned alot on this list be reading the answer to other peoples questions too! Ive been
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 13, 2006
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                        > Hi Samia,
                        >
                        > I don't think I was the one who asked the original question (but
                        lord
                        > knows I'm not sure what I had for breakfast this morning.)


                        Actually...I asked the original question...but hey...Ive learned
                        alot on this list be reading the answer to other peoples questions
                        too!

                        Ive been playing around with alot of the different weaving
                        techniques...I was already familiar with lucet braiding, I use it to
                        make cords to lace up bodices...and who woulda thought that the card
                        weaving I learned all those years ago in girl scouts to make
                        friendship bracelets was a period practice?!?

                        So Ive learned all kind of things!

                        But...the origional question was about recreating the wide trims on
                        14th century cotehardie (fitted gown). All the art Ive looked at,
                        doesnt show the trim in enough detail to really make out how it was
                        made. Does anyone here know? Was it a different color of cloth? Was
                        it a form of weaving a different color directly into the fabric of
                        the gown? Is it built up of several different layers and forms? Does
                        anyone have any links that show it in better detail? Any books I
                        could find to document it?

                        Ghita
                      • Ghita Amati
                        We ve been talking about this same topic on a few different web groups I belong to, and one of the topics that came up was how to braid a small lacing cord.
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 13, 2006
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                          We've been talking about this same topic on a few different web groups
                          I belong to, and one of the topics that came up was how to braid a
                          small lacing cord. Quite a while back I developed a way of doing a
                          really handy lacing cord based on lucet braiding techniques without
                          having to go out and buy a lucet. It kinda got enough interest that I
                          decided to fix up a quick little website with some pictures and a
                          brief description of what I do, since it was so hard to describe with
                          only words.

                          If anyone here is interested, the site is www.geocities.com/dj_mccreary

                          I truly do not know if this is period. I know lucet braiding is. I
                          know fingerloop braiding is...This is kind of a combination.

                          Ghita
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