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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Dog Collars and Medieval Buckles

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  • Bookwyrm
    ... Ah, but that s the point. For ME, the markings are not medically necessary. The dog is medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a courtesy to those charged
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
      On 02/06/06, d_archambeaux <ericarchambault@...> wrote:
      > > On the last image, you can see what I take to be writing. Would
      > >it be > minimally intrusive to use a similar font to write "Service
      > Dog" on > the collar in modern English, in order to make the marking
      >
      > Any form of marking you deem necessary is going to be acceptable.
      > This goes to the medical necessity threads that have been beaten to
      > death on the list. If the markings have got to be balze orange
      > with refelctive lettering, so be it.

      Ah, but that's the point. For ME, the markings are not medically
      necessary. The dog is medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a
      courtesy to those charged with keeping pets out of no-pets sites.

      The balancing act here is to courteously not intrude on other people's
      enjoyment with something obviously out of period, like his mundane
      embroidered nylong backpack, while still making it clear enough to the
      terribly harassed person who is trying to make sure the rules are
      followed and we may, in fact, use the site again that I am no threat,
      and that she doesn't need to spend a lot of time arguing with me about
      whether or not the dog is allowed.

      Rest assured that I would not consider compromising something
      medically necessary for the sake of authenticity . . . but I do want
      to make it minimally intrusive. Standard disclaimer about these being
      my standards for me, not ones that I would attempt to apply to anybody
      else. I'm not trying to beat it to death, just to find independent
      opinions on a particular proposed balance.

      --
      Bookwyrm and Empath
      Ontario, Canada
    • Bookwyrm
      ... If not new, at least recent? You re right, of course, that if they endlessly recycled buckles, there wouldn t be enough finds for them to be affordable.
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
        On 02/06/06, Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...> wrote:
        > In period, one would use a new buckle, not a
        > centuries-old one.

        If not new, at least recent? You're right, of course, that if they
        endlessly recycled buckles, there wouldn't be enough finds for them to
        be affordable. The most affordable artifacts are probably also the
        most disposable. (The same holds true at a garage sale :-)

        > So although a surviving find gets full points for
        > material, style, workmanship, etc, it fails on
        > sturdiness, lack of wear and tear, essentially on age.
        > So which is super-authentic, a surviving find or a new
        > piece of work which copies as much as possible that
        > surviving find (minus the ravages of the centuries)?

        Well, for me, part of the consideration was that metalwork is not one
        of my skills. Buying a buckle is thus my only option. You are, of
        course, correct in implying that a reasonably affluent persona would
        have bought new . . . but this brings one to another issue: If the
        original buckle was forged (as Ercule d'Archambeaux suggested to be
        likely), modern buckles are stamped, and easily available
        reproductions are cast (either from original work or from existing
        finds)

        Do I need to hunt down a smith?

        > The same question occurred to me while reading an
        > excellent book on medieval furniture which includes
        > sections on how to "age" it. If one is trying to copy
        > an extant piece exactly as it is now, that makes
        > sense. But it is not how the piece would have appeared
        > when it was made.

        Hmm. But if we're doing things for recreational use, they won't GET
        the same level of traffic that they would have gotten, and our
        environments are different. I think my personal preference would be
        to simulate how it would look after a year or two of use, rather than
        centuries or brand new. Realistically, using brand new stuff is going
        to be a fairly rare occurrence in a stuff-poor environment.

        --
        Bookwyrm and Empath
        Ontario, Canada
      • Dawn Malmstrom
        ... In my opinion, any medical helper dog should be kept in their mundane uniforms . That way the mundane authorites can tell at a clance that they are
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
          > For ME, the markings are not medically necessary. The dog is
          > medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a courtesy to those charged
          > with keeping pets out of no-pets sites.
          >
          > The balancing act here is to courteously not intrude on other
          > people's enjoyment with something obviously out of period, like his
          > mundane embroidered nylong backpack, while still making it clear
          > enough to the terribly harassed person who is trying to make sure
          > the rules are followed and we may, in fact, use the site again that
          > I am no threat, and that she doesn't need to spend a lot of time
          > arguing with me about whether or not the dog is allowed.
          >

          In my opinion, any medical helper dog should be kept in their mundane
          "uniforms". That way the mundane authorites can tell at a clance that
          they are working dogs, not pets (this is the best way of ending any
          argument with the people at gate). Like wheelchairs, these are
          something that I would gladly use my visual filter to accept. Also,
          many have been taught to aproach a working dog differently then a pet.

          For the sake of the SCA folk and ease of the site crew, I would
          contact the Autocrat for the event before the event and have papers
          for the dog to give to the person at the gate and a copy for the
          chiurgeon. The autocrat can inform the site owner of the helper dog
          coming --there are many laws on the books that insure that he is
          welcome-- and be ready for you at the gate (remember many people at
          gate are new).

          I know its extra work, but it beats getting to an event only to have
          to argue your way in.

          Donata Bonacorsi
        • Terri Morgan
          I can attest that when someone with a working dog contacted me (when I was the Pennsic Troll) ahead of time, it was *wonderful*. Not only did it brighten my
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
            I can attest that when someone with a working dog contacted me (when I was
            the Pennsic Troll) ahead of time, it was *wonderful*. Not only did it
            brighten my day but it increased the number of volunteers I had when the
            word got out ("We're going to have a person come through with a sightdog/
            alarm dog/ trained monkey (!) and they'll be needing to contact ____ when
            they get here"). Everyone wanted to be the person who got to meet the dog
            and its owner *first*, indulgent folks that they were.

            I've seen working animals with and without special 'SCA' collars/backpacks -
            generally, there has been no problem in recognising them as such no matter
            what their collar looks like. When they're working, it's obvious. Use what
            appeals to you. But may I suggest that if you do decide to make a special
            'camping/vacation' collar for your dog, that you consider putting the
            Chirurgeons symbol on it somewhere if you are concerned about other folks
            being able to tell.


            Hrothny
          • Bookwyrm
            ... That sounds like a wonderful idea. However, is it legal ? My dog is wonderful for MY needs, but he doesn t meet the standards to be part of the
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
              On 04/06/06, Terri Morgan <online2much@...> wrote:
              > But may I suggest that if you do decide to make a special
              > 'camping/vacation' collar for your dog, that you consider
              > putting the Chirurgeons symbol on it somewhere if you are
              > concerned about other folks being able to tell.

              That sounds like a wonderful idea.

              However, is it 'legal"? My dog is wonderful for MY needs, but he
              doesn't meet the standards to be part of the chirugeonate.

              --
              Bookwyrm and Empath
              Ontario, Canada
            • Andrea Hughett
              Greetings all, Over the next several years I am going to be converting my house to a daycare center and the detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
                Greetings all,

                Over the next several years I am going to be
                converting my house to a daycare center and the
                detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                when not actually in use.

                So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                attempting to create.

                Thank you for your help.

                Andrea of Anglespur
                kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                So many books, so little time!

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              • Susan B. Farmer
                ... While this may be later than you want, Peter Thornton has a book titled The Italian Renaissance Interior. *wonderful* book! Here s a review
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
                  Quoting Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...>:

                  > Greetings all,
                  >
                  > Over the next several years I am going to be
                  > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                  > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                  > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                  > to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                  > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                  > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                  > machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                  > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                  > when not actually in use.
                  >
                  > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                  > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                  > attempting to create.

                  While this may be later than you want, Peter Thornton has a book titled
                  The Italian Renaissance Interior.

                  *wonderful* book!

                  Here's a review
                  http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3394/is_199409/ai_n8140290

                  ILL may be your friend. As I recall, this is a pricey book.

                  Jerusha
                  -----
                  Susan Farmer
                  sfarmer@...
                  University of Tennessee
                  Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                  http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
                • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                  A few thoughts: Chests and trunks make great places to store things (and it provides a place to put the sewing machine, etc., once you take it out). Ikea used
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
                    A few thoughts:

                    Chests and trunks make great places to store things (and it provides a
                    place to put the sewing machine, etc., once you take it out). Ikea
                    used to have some nice wooden chests that could easily be modified
                    (painted, decorated, etc.) to fit into a more mediaeval look.

                    For computers: Think about wireless computers and using laptops. The
                    laptops can be hidden out of sight easily enough, and have the
                    advantage of being portable.

                    You can use curtains around the walls--a popular wall covering, at
                    least in the 15th and 16th centuries (and I believe earlier) in
                    England. This can allow you to hide doors or other items, if you
                    want.

                    Perhaps further than you want to go: World Market has some nice
                    matting that reminds me of the rush mats that might give a good feel
                    to the room, but I've not tried it myself.

                    Just a few thoughts late at night.


                    -Ii
                  • Tiffany Brown
                    The first two references that spring to mind: U.T. Holmes Daily living in the 12th Century I m sure you ve heard about it by now, possibly even read it. It
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
                      The first two references that spring to mind:

                      U.T. Holmes "Daily living in the 12th Century"
                      I'm sure you've heard about it by now, possibly even read it. It has
                      a long chapter describing the layout of a townhouse, and annother
                      describing a country manor.
                      The description seems to indicate rather less clutter of posetions
                      than today, but false walls or wall hangings might be effective for
                      soem intense storage spaces. Beds with hangings (to keep the warmth
                      in) were the fashion, so maybe a fake bed wit hthe curtains closed
                      could serve as a space for the sewing machine and other clutter?.

                      Zarnecki (ed) "romenesque art" book and companion video
                      There are several extant 12th C english buildings. One a dwelling in
                      an upstairs corner of a warehouse. The book is great for fittings -
                      check out the doorknobs and oil lamps, the video give a very brief,
                      but 3D tour of some of those buildings.

                      If you can't find those books instantly, let me know and I'll dig out
                      a proper citation.

                      There are also a lot of 12th C extant bits and bobs in museum online
                      photo libraries - trunks, wall hangings, that sort of thing.

                      Sounds like a facinating project,
                      Teffania

                      On 6/20/06, Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...> wrote:
                      > Greetings all,
                      >
                      > Over the next several years I am going to be
                      > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                      > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                      > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                      > to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                      > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                      > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                      > machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                      > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                      > when not actually in use.
                      >
                      > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                      > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                      > attempting to create.
                      >
                      > Thank you for your help.
                      >
                      > Andrea of Anglespur
                      > kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                      > So many books, so little time!
                      >
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                      >
                      >
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                      >
                    • Dragon
                      MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST THANK YOU Hi, It does indeed sound fascinating, I do hope you will post pics and stuff. A lot depends on how accurate
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
                        MODERATOR NOTE:
                        PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                        THANK YOU

                        Hi,

                        It does indeed sound fascinating, I do hope you will post pics and stuff.

                        A lot depends on how accurate you want to get. A lot of churches are
                        being refitted around the country, you might find some treasure if you
                        check out the architectural salvage places. I doubt it would be
                        genuinely medieval but it might have the right look.

                        Just a thought.

                        Dragon
                      • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                        Andrea of Anglespur....room ideas Dear Lady, Last autumn I had my 2 1/2 car garage converted into a medieval Hall. The area that would have been the buttery
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
                          Andrea of Anglespur....room ideas

                          Dear Lady,

                          Last autumn I had my 2 1/2 car garage converted into a medieval Hall. The area that would have been the buttery is my lovely laundry room that has excellent disguise when we have get togethers and all serving of beverages etc. takes place from this room. Where the solar would have been I have a storage rooom above the buttery and part of the hall, with a drop down staircase. We left the structural beams and enclosed them in somewhat rough planking to increase the size. These were burned with a torch to darken and age them before they were stained. I had a closet built to the approximate design of one I saw in Warrick Castle and also imitated a method of hanging colothing items on the wall. I went with modern triple glazed windows with cross hatching as I wanted all the light I could get for needlework, spinning and such. Fortunately I already had found a wall sconce and a chandelier on Ebay that are perfect in the lighting. The doorways are arched and the one into
                          the house is waiting for it's planks. I found some nice hardware at Lowe's, and in catalogs.

                          My real concession to medieval decorating is coming out in my wall paintings. I am copying several marvelous figures that I found in Easby Abby, England and in some examples of Danish church interiors. I did not initially think of painting anything more than faux stone walls, but I am hooked now on the murals. The odd shapes of the roof line and other bits are lending themselves nicely to some little odds and ends of characters I found here and there in wall art.

                          We finished up with iron rods for curtains, antlers, old dark furniture and persian rugs and it is all coming together. It's the favorite room of the house.

                          Hope this helps. If you have questions let me know.

                          Elyn de Haoucmore




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                        • Christiana
                          Another response to: ... Here are 4 books to look up. The first 3 I have not had time to cross compare so I can t comment on accuracy, but they may be of some
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
                            Another response to:

                            Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...>:
                            >
                            > > Greetings all,
                            > >
                            > > Over the next several years I am going to be
                            > > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                            > > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                            > > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be
                            > fun
                            > > to do it in a medieval style, more or less
                            > 12th/13th
                            > > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would
                            > not
                            > > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                            > > machine, computer, and excessive books from the
                            > place,
                            > > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind
                            > curtains
                            > > when not actually in use.
                            > >
                            > > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                            > > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance
                            > I am
                            > > attempting to create.
                            >

                            Here are 4 books to look up. The first 3 I have not
                            had time to cross compare so I can't comment on
                            accuracy, but they may be of some use:
                            Life on a Medieval Barony by William Stearns Davis (an
                            early 20th century book, with a scholarly background)
                            A Baronial Household of the 13th Century by Margaret
                            Wade Labarge (mid 20th century)
                            Growing Up in the 13th Century by Alfred Duggan (publ.
                            in England, mid 20th C)
                            Lastly, I offer a definitely good quality book:
                            Pilgrimage to Rome in the Middle Ages by Debra J.
                            Birch, ISSN 0955-2480 by Boydell and Brewer. This
                            originallly sold at $95 locally, but I waited VERY
                            patiently until it was marked down enough to be
                            affordable! Despite the subject, there is good info
                            to glean. Well researched.

                            Christiana de Avochelie

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                          • Jerilyn Winstead
                            MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST THANK YOU Elyn, please please please post some photos!!!!! drooling here Jane
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 21, 2006
                              MODERATOR NOTE:
                              PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST
                              THANK YOU

                              Elyn, please please please post some photos!!!!!

                              drooling here

                              Jane
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