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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Dog Collars and Medieval Buckles

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  • Tiffany Brown
    ... Sorry, I should stop using shorthand. Indeed - no closures remaining on the article, likely lost over the years. There is some funny shaping at the back,
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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      On 6/1/06, Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Jun 1, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Tiffany Brown wrote:
      > > http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=2858
      >
      > Gorgeous! (And the sort of thing you wouldn't come up with if we
      > didn't have the surviving example.) I'd hesitate to conclude that
      > the original had _no_ closures -- simply that any closures were
      > distinct from this decorative metalwork. The description suggests
      > that it was originally attached to a fabric backing -- to which,
      > presumably, any closure or buckle would have been attached.

      Sorry, I should stop using shorthand. Indeed - no closures remaining
      on the article, likely lost over the years. There is some funny
      shaping at the back, that I expect was part of a closure (could be a
      buckle?), but I doubt we'd be able to tell what kind until we saw an
      example of the kind to compare it to. So no help for solving that
      riddle.

      Also - knowing the 12th C asthetic somewhat, and since this looks like
      the collar of someone with some money - I wouldn't be surprised if
      gems (cheap fake or moderately priced) were sewn to the backing
      material in the gaps. I very much doubt the backing material would be
      the velvet that the article says, as velvets were still pretty rare at
      this stage. Some other cloth (perhaps a silk twill - harder wearing
      and still very oppulent, or something cheaper) or even a woven backing
      (eg tabletweaving) seems more likely, as does a sturdy leather which
      could be further decorated.


      teffania
      "I'm not obsessed with the 12th Century, honest :-)"
    • Bookwyrm
      ... A bit far for me to go. The curator was quite helpful by e-mail, however. Unfortunately, none of the over-the-top collars described in the literature.
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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        On 01/06/06, Jane Stockton <jane_stockton@...> wrote:
        > http://www.leeds-castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_museum.html

        A bit far for me to go. The curator was quite helpful by e-mail,
        however. Unfortunately, none of the over-the-top collars described in
        the literature.

        On 18/07/05, Andrew Wells <andrewwells@...> wrote:
        > The Leeds Castle collection, which goes back to the 16th century, has no
        > collars made of the fine materials you mention.
        . . .
        > Collars which have survived from these early days are usually of brass or
        > iron though some of the more substantial leather collars still exist. Most
        > collars through the centuries have been lined with leather, of which only a
        > trace or nothing remains.
        >
        > A delicate collar such as that you mention is unlikely to have survived so
        > it is difficult to be sure of its construction. Given the almost universal
        > use of leather as the material nearest the dog's coat, I believe that 'your'
        > collar would probably have been based on a leather strap. A lighter
        > material would have been capable of being tied too tight, and pulling when
        > the lead was stretched. I suppose hemp is a possibility, but I think less
        > likely in a household which could afford leather, and there is a possibility
        > of hemp chafing.

        Nothing solid, but good logic.

        --
        Bookwyrm and Empath
        Ontario, Canada
      • m d b
        ... castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_mu seum.html ... in ... I went in 1997, and can remember being intrigued by the wide
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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          > On 01/06/06, Jane Stockton <jane_stockton@...> wrote:
          > > http://www.leeds-
          castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_mu
          seum.html
          >
          > A bit far for me to go. The curator was quite helpful by e-mail,
          > however. Unfortunately, none of the over-the-top collars described
          in
          > the literature.

          I went in 1997, and can remember being intrigued by the wide variety,
          and there were spikes everywhere! I seriously doubted at the time
          that some were in fact for use on real dogs;)

          I don't know if I have any photos, I'll have a look and let you know
          if I have any of interest. I know I changed films in the room, and
          probably took at least one inside.

          Here are some photos someone else took:
          http://albums.laurenstravels.com/leeds-castle-grounds?page=5
          http://community.webshots.com/album/60822265tbGuWX

          I can't recall which ones I saw then were pre 1600, but I suspect
          most of the photos shown above an't, but I'm sure there are more
          photo galleries out there.

          Leeds Castle really is lovely, and next time I get to England I will
          be going, but not with a tour group;) I did a bus about day trip and
          nearly got left at Canterbury Cathedral... I lost track of time and
          got back just as the bus was pulling out at the top of the town...

          Willemyne,
          http://glittersweet.com
        • d_archambeaux
          ... are surviving finds from the middle ages. ... buckles to ... I have made a pair of pulling harnesses for my shepards to draw a small wagon, 6 ounce
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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            --- Bookwyrm <bookwyrm.com@...> wrote:
            > If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar (which I do),
            > Obviously, the most authentic medieval buckles would be ones that
            are surviving finds from the middle ages.
            > Would it be safe to trust a pair of small-ish centuries-old
            buckles to
            > continue to hold in use today, or do I go hunting for the best
            > possible reproductions?

            I have made a pair of pulling harnesses for my shepards to draw a
            small wagon, 6 ounce leather well oiled, and padded at the collar.

            For hardware, no don't risk a genuine artifact. I've been collecting
            artifacts, from knives to horse tack, and I'd hate to see a
            surviving piece be subjected to a lunging pulling dog.

            Try to find a modern Feed and Tack store in your area. They'll
            carry a wide variety of hardware for repairing horse saddles and
            harness work. If you've got your medieval design in mind, you'll
            find many odd shaped pieces that can be made to serve and be
            reasonably authentic. For example, I've got a 12th cen. Snaffel Bit.
            It is virtually identical to the modern item.

            If the hardware is strong enough to hold a horse,
            it'll manage any dog.


            > Would those be cast, or forged?

            Forged. for heavy duty items castings would be unlikely.

            > On the last image, you can see what I take to be writing. Would
            >it be > minimally intrusive to use a similar font to write "Service
            Dog" on > the collar in modern English, in order to make the marking

            Any form of marking you deem necessary is going to be acceptable.
            This goes to the medical necessity threads that have been beaten to
            death on the list. If the markings have got to be balze orange
            with refelctive lettering, so be it.

            My dogs in harness, were assumed to be "service animals" at Great
            Western War. It really did suprise me, their harnesses are designed
            for work, and the dogs while behavied enough to go to events, aren't
            nearly well behavied enough to be service animals.

            When marking your collar, keep in mind what can be scratched off
            when the dog decides there is an itch under the new collar.
            Mine removed alot of heraldic painting that I had done on the
            harnesses.


            Good Luck,
            Ercule d'Archambeaux

            Caid
          • Andrea Hughett
            ... I really don t want this read as a criticism, but I am interested in this as a philosophical point. In period, one would use a new buckle, not a
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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              > --- Bookwyrm <bookwyrm.com@...> wrote:
              > > If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar
              > (which I do),
              > > Obviously, the most authentic medieval buckles
              > would be ones that
              > are surviving finds from the middle ages.

              I really don't want this read as a criticism, but I am
              interested in this as a philosophical point. In
              period, one would use a new buckle, not a
              centuries-old one. So although a surviving find gets
              full points for material, style, workmanship, etc, it
              fails on sturdiness, lack of wear and tear,
              essentially on age. So which is super-authentic, a
              surviving find or a new piece of work which copies as
              much as possible that surviving find (minus the
              ravages of the centuries)?

              The same question occurred to me while reading an
              excellent book on medieval furniture which includes
              sections on how to "age" it. If one is trying to copy
              an extant piece exactly as it is now, that makes
              sense. But it is not how the piece would have appeared
              when it was made.

              Obviously different people are going to have different
              takes on this question, but I am interested in how
              people thing about it?

              Andrea of Anglespur
              kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
              So many books, so little time!

              __________________________________________________
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            • Bookwyrm
              ... Ah, but that s the point. For ME, the markings are not medically necessary. The dog is medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a courtesy to those charged
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                On 02/06/06, d_archambeaux <ericarchambault@...> wrote:
                > > On the last image, you can see what I take to be writing. Would
                > >it be > minimally intrusive to use a similar font to write "Service
                > Dog" on > the collar in modern English, in order to make the marking
                >
                > Any form of marking you deem necessary is going to be acceptable.
                > This goes to the medical necessity threads that have been beaten to
                > death on the list. If the markings have got to be balze orange
                > with refelctive lettering, so be it.

                Ah, but that's the point. For ME, the markings are not medically
                necessary. The dog is medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a
                courtesy to those charged with keeping pets out of no-pets sites.

                The balancing act here is to courteously not intrude on other people's
                enjoyment with something obviously out of period, like his mundane
                embroidered nylong backpack, while still making it clear enough to the
                terribly harassed person who is trying to make sure the rules are
                followed and we may, in fact, use the site again that I am no threat,
                and that she doesn't need to spend a lot of time arguing with me about
                whether or not the dog is allowed.

                Rest assured that I would not consider compromising something
                medically necessary for the sake of authenticity . . . but I do want
                to make it minimally intrusive. Standard disclaimer about these being
                my standards for me, not ones that I would attempt to apply to anybody
                else. I'm not trying to beat it to death, just to find independent
                opinions on a particular proposed balance.

                --
                Bookwyrm and Empath
                Ontario, Canada
              • Bookwyrm
                ... If not new, at least recent? You re right, of course, that if they endlessly recycled buckles, there wouldn t be enough finds for them to be affordable.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                  On 02/06/06, Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...> wrote:
                  > In period, one would use a new buckle, not a
                  > centuries-old one.

                  If not new, at least recent? You're right, of course, that if they
                  endlessly recycled buckles, there wouldn't be enough finds for them to
                  be affordable. The most affordable artifacts are probably also the
                  most disposable. (The same holds true at a garage sale :-)

                  > So although a surviving find gets full points for
                  > material, style, workmanship, etc, it fails on
                  > sturdiness, lack of wear and tear, essentially on age.
                  > So which is super-authentic, a surviving find or a new
                  > piece of work which copies as much as possible that
                  > surviving find (minus the ravages of the centuries)?

                  Well, for me, part of the consideration was that metalwork is not one
                  of my skills. Buying a buckle is thus my only option. You are, of
                  course, correct in implying that a reasonably affluent persona would
                  have bought new . . . but this brings one to another issue: If the
                  original buckle was forged (as Ercule d'Archambeaux suggested to be
                  likely), modern buckles are stamped, and easily available
                  reproductions are cast (either from original work or from existing
                  finds)

                  Do I need to hunt down a smith?

                  > The same question occurred to me while reading an
                  > excellent book on medieval furniture which includes
                  > sections on how to "age" it. If one is trying to copy
                  > an extant piece exactly as it is now, that makes
                  > sense. But it is not how the piece would have appeared
                  > when it was made.

                  Hmm. But if we're doing things for recreational use, they won't GET
                  the same level of traffic that they would have gotten, and our
                  environments are different. I think my personal preference would be
                  to simulate how it would look after a year or two of use, rather than
                  centuries or brand new. Realistically, using brand new stuff is going
                  to be a fairly rare occurrence in a stuff-poor environment.

                  --
                  Bookwyrm and Empath
                  Ontario, Canada
                • Dawn Malmstrom
                  ... In my opinion, any medical helper dog should be kept in their mundane uniforms . That way the mundane authorites can tell at a clance that they are
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                    > For ME, the markings are not medically necessary. The dog is
                    > medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a courtesy to those charged
                    > with keeping pets out of no-pets sites.
                    >
                    > The balancing act here is to courteously not intrude on other
                    > people's enjoyment with something obviously out of period, like his
                    > mundane embroidered nylong backpack, while still making it clear
                    > enough to the terribly harassed person who is trying to make sure
                    > the rules are followed and we may, in fact, use the site again that
                    > I am no threat, and that she doesn't need to spend a lot of time
                    > arguing with me about whether or not the dog is allowed.
                    >

                    In my opinion, any medical helper dog should be kept in their mundane
                    "uniforms". That way the mundane authorites can tell at a clance that
                    they are working dogs, not pets (this is the best way of ending any
                    argument with the people at gate). Like wheelchairs, these are
                    something that I would gladly use my visual filter to accept. Also,
                    many have been taught to aproach a working dog differently then a pet.

                    For the sake of the SCA folk and ease of the site crew, I would
                    contact the Autocrat for the event before the event and have papers
                    for the dog to give to the person at the gate and a copy for the
                    chiurgeon. The autocrat can inform the site owner of the helper dog
                    coming --there are many laws on the books that insure that he is
                    welcome-- and be ready for you at the gate (remember many people at
                    gate are new).

                    I know its extra work, but it beats getting to an event only to have
                    to argue your way in.

                    Donata Bonacorsi
                  • Terri Morgan
                    I can attest that when someone with a working dog contacted me (when I was the Pennsic Troll) ahead of time, it was *wonderful*. Not only did it brighten my
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
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                      I can attest that when someone with a working dog contacted me (when I was
                      the Pennsic Troll) ahead of time, it was *wonderful*. Not only did it
                      brighten my day but it increased the number of volunteers I had when the
                      word got out ("We're going to have a person come through with a sightdog/
                      alarm dog/ trained monkey (!) and they'll be needing to contact ____ when
                      they get here"). Everyone wanted to be the person who got to meet the dog
                      and its owner *first*, indulgent folks that they were.

                      I've seen working animals with and without special 'SCA' collars/backpacks -
                      generally, there has been no problem in recognising them as such no matter
                      what their collar looks like. When they're working, it's obvious. Use what
                      appeals to you. But may I suggest that if you do decide to make a special
                      'camping/vacation' collar for your dog, that you consider putting the
                      Chirurgeons symbol on it somewhere if you are concerned about other folks
                      being able to tell.


                      Hrothny
                    • Bookwyrm
                      ... That sounds like a wonderful idea. However, is it legal ? My dog is wonderful for MY needs, but he doesn t meet the standards to be part of the
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
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                        On 04/06/06, Terri Morgan <online2much@...> wrote:
                        > But may I suggest that if you do decide to make a special
                        > 'camping/vacation' collar for your dog, that you consider
                        > putting the Chirurgeons symbol on it somewhere if you are
                        > concerned about other folks being able to tell.

                        That sounds like a wonderful idea.

                        However, is it 'legal"? My dog is wonderful for MY needs, but he
                        doesn't meet the standards to be part of the chirugeonate.

                        --
                        Bookwyrm and Empath
                        Ontario, Canada
                      • Andrea Hughett
                        Greetings all, Over the next several years I am going to be converting my house to a daycare center and the detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
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                          Greetings all,

                          Over the next several years I am going to be
                          converting my house to a daycare center and the
                          detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                          room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                          to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                          century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                          serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                          machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                          I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                          when not actually in use.

                          So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                          anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                          attempting to create.

                          Thank you for your help.

                          Andrea of Anglespur
                          kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                          So many books, so little time!

                          __________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                        • Susan B. Farmer
                          ... While this may be later than you want, Peter Thornton has a book titled The Italian Renaissance Interior. *wonderful* book! Here s a review
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
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                            Quoting Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...>:

                            > Greetings all,
                            >
                            > Over the next several years I am going to be
                            > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                            > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                            > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                            > to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                            > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                            > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                            > machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                            > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                            > when not actually in use.
                            >
                            > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                            > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                            > attempting to create.

                            While this may be later than you want, Peter Thornton has a book titled
                            The Italian Renaissance Interior.

                            *wonderful* book!

                            Here's a review
                            http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3394/is_199409/ai_n8140290

                            ILL may be your friend. As I recall, this is a pricey book.

                            Jerusha
                            -----
                            Susan Farmer
                            sfarmer@...
                            University of Tennessee
                            Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                            http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
                          • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                            A few thoughts: Chests and trunks make great places to store things (and it provides a place to put the sewing machine, etc., once you take it out). Ikea used
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
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                              A few thoughts:

                              Chests and trunks make great places to store things (and it provides a
                              place to put the sewing machine, etc., once you take it out). Ikea
                              used to have some nice wooden chests that could easily be modified
                              (painted, decorated, etc.) to fit into a more mediaeval look.

                              For computers: Think about wireless computers and using laptops. The
                              laptops can be hidden out of sight easily enough, and have the
                              advantage of being portable.

                              You can use curtains around the walls--a popular wall covering, at
                              least in the 15th and 16th centuries (and I believe earlier) in
                              England. This can allow you to hide doors or other items, if you
                              want.

                              Perhaps further than you want to go: World Market has some nice
                              matting that reminds me of the rush mats that might give a good feel
                              to the room, but I've not tried it myself.

                              Just a few thoughts late at night.


                              -Ii
                            • Tiffany Brown
                              The first two references that spring to mind: U.T. Holmes Daily living in the 12th Century I m sure you ve heard about it by now, possibly even read it. It
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                The first two references that spring to mind:

                                U.T. Holmes "Daily living in the 12th Century"
                                I'm sure you've heard about it by now, possibly even read it. It has
                                a long chapter describing the layout of a townhouse, and annother
                                describing a country manor.
                                The description seems to indicate rather less clutter of posetions
                                than today, but false walls or wall hangings might be effective for
                                soem intense storage spaces. Beds with hangings (to keep the warmth
                                in) were the fashion, so maybe a fake bed wit hthe curtains closed
                                could serve as a space for the sewing machine and other clutter?.

                                Zarnecki (ed) "romenesque art" book and companion video
                                There are several extant 12th C english buildings. One a dwelling in
                                an upstairs corner of a warehouse. The book is great for fittings -
                                check out the doorknobs and oil lamps, the video give a very brief,
                                but 3D tour of some of those buildings.

                                If you can't find those books instantly, let me know and I'll dig out
                                a proper citation.

                                There are also a lot of 12th C extant bits and bobs in museum online
                                photo libraries - trunks, wall hangings, that sort of thing.

                                Sounds like a facinating project,
                                Teffania

                                On 6/20/06, Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...> wrote:
                                > Greetings all,
                                >
                                > Over the next several years I am going to be
                                > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                                > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                                > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                                > to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                                > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                                > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                                > machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                                > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                                > when not actually in use.
                                >
                                > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                                > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                                > attempting to create.
                                >
                                > Thank you for your help.
                                >
                                > Andrea of Anglespur
                                > kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                                > So many books, so little time!
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________
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                                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ----------------------------------------------------
                                > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Dragon
                                MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST THANK YOU Hi, It does indeed sound fascinating, I do hope you will post pics and stuff. A lot depends on how accurate
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                  MODERATOR NOTE:
                                  PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                                  THANK YOU

                                  Hi,

                                  It does indeed sound fascinating, I do hope you will post pics and stuff.

                                  A lot depends on how accurate you want to get. A lot of churches are
                                  being refitted around the country, you might find some treasure if you
                                  check out the architectural salvage places. I doubt it would be
                                  genuinely medieval but it might have the right look.

                                  Just a thought.

                                  Dragon
                                • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                                  Andrea of Anglespur....room ideas Dear Lady, Last autumn I had my 2 1/2 car garage converted into a medieval Hall. The area that would have been the buttery
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                    Andrea of Anglespur....room ideas

                                    Dear Lady,

                                    Last autumn I had my 2 1/2 car garage converted into a medieval Hall. The area that would have been the buttery is my lovely laundry room that has excellent disguise when we have get togethers and all serving of beverages etc. takes place from this room. Where the solar would have been I have a storage rooom above the buttery and part of the hall, with a drop down staircase. We left the structural beams and enclosed them in somewhat rough planking to increase the size. These were burned with a torch to darken and age them before they were stained. I had a closet built to the approximate design of one I saw in Warrick Castle and also imitated a method of hanging colothing items on the wall. I went with modern triple glazed windows with cross hatching as I wanted all the light I could get for needlework, spinning and such. Fortunately I already had found a wall sconce and a chandelier on Ebay that are perfect in the lighting. The doorways are arched and the one into
                                    the house is waiting for it's planks. I found some nice hardware at Lowe's, and in catalogs.

                                    My real concession to medieval decorating is coming out in my wall paintings. I am copying several marvelous figures that I found in Easby Abby, England and in some examples of Danish church interiors. I did not initially think of painting anything more than faux stone walls, but I am hooked now on the murals. The odd shapes of the roof line and other bits are lending themselves nicely to some little odds and ends of characters I found here and there in wall art.

                                    We finished up with iron rods for curtains, antlers, old dark furniture and persian rugs and it is all coming together. It's the favorite room of the house.

                                    Hope this helps. If you have questions let me know.

                                    Elyn de Haoucmore




                                    ---------------------------------
                                    Ring'em or ping'em. Make PC-to-phone calls as low as 1ยข/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Christiana
                                    Another response to: ... Here are 4 books to look up. The first 3 I have not had time to cross compare so I can t comment on accuracy, but they may be of some
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                      Another response to:

                                      Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...>:
                                      >
                                      > > Greetings all,
                                      > >
                                      > > Over the next several years I am going to be
                                      > > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                                      > > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                                      > > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be
                                      > fun
                                      > > to do it in a medieval style, more or less
                                      > 12th/13th
                                      > > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would
                                      > not
                                      > > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                                      > > machine, computer, and excessive books from the
                                      > place,
                                      > > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind
                                      > curtains
                                      > > when not actually in use.
                                      > >
                                      > > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                                      > > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance
                                      > I am
                                      > > attempting to create.
                                      >

                                      Here are 4 books to look up. The first 3 I have not
                                      had time to cross compare so I can't comment on
                                      accuracy, but they may be of some use:
                                      Life on a Medieval Barony by William Stearns Davis (an
                                      early 20th century book, with a scholarly background)
                                      A Baronial Household of the 13th Century by Margaret
                                      Wade Labarge (mid 20th century)
                                      Growing Up in the 13th Century by Alfred Duggan (publ.
                                      in England, mid 20th C)
                                      Lastly, I offer a definitely good quality book:
                                      Pilgrimage to Rome in the Middle Ages by Debra J.
                                      Birch, ISSN 0955-2480 by Boydell and Brewer. This
                                      originallly sold at $95 locally, but I waited VERY
                                      patiently until it was marked down enough to be
                                      affordable! Despite the subject, there is good info
                                      to glean. Well researched.

                                      Christiana de Avochelie

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                                    • Jerilyn Winstead
                                      MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST THANK YOU Elyn, please please please post some photos!!!!! drooling here Jane
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 21, 2006
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                                        MODERATOR NOTE:
                                        PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST
                                        THANK YOU

                                        Elyn, please please please post some photos!!!!!

                                        drooling here

                                        Jane
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