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Dog Collars and Medieval Buckles

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  • Bookwyrm
    If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar (which I do), I would do a ton of research (which I have, and still almost-am, though I m out of leads and
    Message 1 of 24 , May 31, 2006
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      If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar (which I do), I would
      do a ton of research (which I have, and still almost-am, though I'm
      out of leads and anything from here on in is serendipity) and try to
      match materials as much as possible.

      Obviously, the most authentic medieval buckles would be ones that are
      surviving finds from the middle ages. They're not -insanely-
      expensive. The real question in my mind would be one of strength.
      Would it be safe to trust a pair of small-ish centuries-old buckles to
      continue to hold in use today, or do I go hunting for the best
      possible reproductions? Would those be cast, or forged? Okay; maybe
      I need to look harder for the London finds book, since my library
      won't ILL it for me.

      I'm departing from Mistress Alianora Munro's belief that the
      well-depicted unicorn collars would map well to existing dog collars;
      examining the Unicorn Tapestries at the Met's web site, one does not
      see the one-buckle-of-strap-width pattern on any of the dogs, though
      it is on the unicorn.

      At the moment http://tinyurl.com/rbdbg is the closure method I'm
      hoping to try, though some cheaper experiments will be done before I
      go all out :-) Some of the other closures, I cannot fathom at all.

      Speaking of collar issues, leash loops are a quandry.
      http://tinyurl.com/qjtem shows a typical one. Mistress Alianora Munro
      simply uses a standard D-ring, but to me that would stand out worse
      than a zipper on a kirtle! The closest I can find in the modern world
      are certain cabinet and drawer pulls, but they tend to be cast of zinc
      (a relatively weak metal) and coated with whatever they're supposed to
      imitate. Period references seem to refer to the leash loops as
      "swivels", but I am uncertain how they are supposed to swivel. Round
      like the hands of a clock, or flopping side to side so the ring
      doesn't snag on everything they pass? All the pictures seem to show
      them upright in the same position.

      While I'm at it, the same source (Metropolitan Museum of Art's unicorn
      tapestries) has a great depiction of somebody actually attaching a
      line to a collar . . . but the knot is like nothing I can place or
      recreate. http://tinyurl.com/m85gr . Perhaps the artist simply did
      not know whereof she spoke? I know that uncoupling, or releasing the
      hounds to give chase, was a task for a six-year-old boy learning to be
      a dog carer, so the knot can't have been THAT hard to release under
      pressure? Or do the frequent expenditures for couples imply that the
      line was simply cut to release the dogs, letting people worry about
      getting the rope off later? Post-hunt and during-hunt images from the
      Unicorn Tapestries don't show tag ends of rope on the fine collars,
      though . . .

      On the last image, you can see what I take to be writing. Would it be
      minimally intrusive to use a similar font to write "Service Dog" on
      the collar in modern English, in order to make the marking accessible
      to modern peoples without having to produce an illuminated doctor's
      note attesting to the service-dogness of my dog each time? Should the
      reverse of that doctor's note include documentation of certain dogs
      accompanying period people at all times, should any object to the
      introduction of such a modern thing as a service dog in a
      re-creational environment?

      --
      Bookwyrm and Empath, the service dog who will ultimately wear this.
      Ontario, Canada
    • Jane Stockton
      ... Isn t Google great: http://www.leeds-castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_museum.html Cheers, Jane ... Jane Stockton -
      Message 2 of 24 , May 31, 2006
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        At 02:48 PM 1/06/2006, you wrote:
        >If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar (which I do), I would
        >do a ton of research (which I have, and still almost-am, though I'm
        >out of leads and anything from here on in is serendipity) and try to
        >match materials as much as possible.

        Isn't Google great:
        http://www.leeds-castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_museum.html

        Cheers,
        Jane


        ------------------------------------
        Jane Stockton - jane_stockton@...
        Barony of Mordenvale, Kingdom of Lochac

        In Prayse of the Needle - http://needleprayse.webcon.net.au/ (personal website)
        Historical Needlework Resources - http://medieval.webcon.net.au/
        (resource website)
        The Needles' Excellency - http://laren.blogspot.com/ (blog)
      • Tiffany Brown
        ... Have you seen this? Dog collar (no closures) from 12th C ireland. http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=2858 Just in case it was one
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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          On 6/1/06, Bookwyrm <bookwyrm.com@...> wrote:
          > If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar (which I do), I would
          > do a ton of research (which I have, and still almost-am, though I'm
          > out of leads and anything from here on in is serendipity) and try to
          > match materials as much as possible.

          Have you seen this?
          Dog collar (no closures) from 12th C ireland.
          http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=2858

          Just in case it was one that you'd missed.

          Teffania
        • Bookwyrm
          ... I had missed that! Thank you ever so much for the link! -- Bookwyrm and Empath Ontario, Canada
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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            On 01/06/06, Tiffany Brown <teffania@...> wrote:
            > Have you seen this?
            > Dog collar (no closures) from 12th C ireland.
            > http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=2858

            I had missed that! Thank you ever so much for the link!

            --
            Bookwyrm and Empath
            Ontario, Canada
          • Benjamin Cooper
            Bookwyrm, I have a few photographs of the dog collar from saxony 1608-1611 that is sitting in the Met. I took on my last trip to New York city. There is a
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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              Bookwyrm,
              I have a few photographs of the dog collar from saxony 1608-1611 that is sitting in the Met. I took on my last trip to New York city. There is a detail of the buckles. If you want copies let me know and I will email them to you.

              Ian Muir




              ---------------------------------
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            • Heather Rose Jones
              ... Gorgeous! (And the sort of thing you wouldn t come up with if we didn t have the surviving example.) I d hesitate to conclude that the original had _no_
              Message 6 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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                On Jun 1, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Tiffany Brown wrote:

                > On 6/1/06, Bookwyrm <bookwyrm.com@...> wrote:
                >> If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar (which I do), I would
                >> do a ton of research (which I have, and still almost-am, though I'm
                >> out of leads and anything from here on in is serendipity) and try to
                >> match materials as much as possible.
                >
                > Have you seen this?
                > Dog collar (no closures) from 12th C ireland.
                > http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=2858

                Gorgeous! (And the sort of thing you wouldn't come up with if we
                didn't have the surviving example.) I'd hesitate to conclude that
                the original had _no_ closures -- simply that any closures were
                distinct from this decorative metalwork. The description suggests
                that it was originally attached to a fabric backing -- to which,
                presumably, any closure or buckle would have been attached.

                Tangwystyl

                --
                Heather Rose Jones
                check out the Surviving Garments Database! <http://
                heatherrosejones.com/survivinggarments/>
                heather.jones@...
                http://www.heatherrosejones.com
                LJ:hrj
              • Tiffany Brown
                ... Sorry, I should stop using shorthand. Indeed - no closures remaining on the article, likely lost over the years. There is some funny shaping at the back,
                Message 7 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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                  On 6/1/06, Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Jun 1, 2006, at 12:25 AM, Tiffany Brown wrote:
                  > > http://www.askaboutireland.ie/show_narrative_page.do?page_id=2858
                  >
                  > Gorgeous! (And the sort of thing you wouldn't come up with if we
                  > didn't have the surviving example.) I'd hesitate to conclude that
                  > the original had _no_ closures -- simply that any closures were
                  > distinct from this decorative metalwork. The description suggests
                  > that it was originally attached to a fabric backing -- to which,
                  > presumably, any closure or buckle would have been attached.

                  Sorry, I should stop using shorthand. Indeed - no closures remaining
                  on the article, likely lost over the years. There is some funny
                  shaping at the back, that I expect was part of a closure (could be a
                  buckle?), but I doubt we'd be able to tell what kind until we saw an
                  example of the kind to compare it to. So no help for solving that
                  riddle.

                  Also - knowing the 12th C asthetic somewhat, and since this looks like
                  the collar of someone with some money - I wouldn't be surprised if
                  gems (cheap fake or moderately priced) were sewn to the backing
                  material in the gaps. I very much doubt the backing material would be
                  the velvet that the article says, as velvets were still pretty rare at
                  this stage. Some other cloth (perhaps a silk twill - harder wearing
                  and still very oppulent, or something cheaper) or even a woven backing
                  (eg tabletweaving) seems more likely, as does a sturdy leather which
                  could be further decorated.


                  teffania
                  "I'm not obsessed with the 12th Century, honest :-)"
                • Bookwyrm
                  ... A bit far for me to go. The curator was quite helpful by e-mail, however. Unfortunately, none of the over-the-top collars described in the literature.
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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                    On 01/06/06, Jane Stockton <jane_stockton@...> wrote:
                    > http://www.leeds-castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_museum.html

                    A bit far for me to go. The curator was quite helpful by e-mail,
                    however. Unfortunately, none of the over-the-top collars described in
                    the literature.

                    On 18/07/05, Andrew Wells <andrewwells@...> wrote:
                    > The Leeds Castle collection, which goes back to the 16th century, has no
                    > collars made of the fine materials you mention.
                    . . .
                    > Collars which have survived from these early days are usually of brass or
                    > iron though some of the more substantial leather collars still exist. Most
                    > collars through the centuries have been lined with leather, of which only a
                    > trace or nothing remains.
                    >
                    > A delicate collar such as that you mention is unlikely to have survived so
                    > it is difficult to be sure of its construction. Given the almost universal
                    > use of leather as the material nearest the dog's coat, I believe that 'your'
                    > collar would probably have been based on a leather strap. A lighter
                    > material would have been capable of being tied too tight, and pulling when
                    > the lead was stretched. I suppose hemp is a possibility, but I think less
                    > likely in a household which could afford leather, and there is a possibility
                    > of hemp chafing.

                    Nothing solid, but good logic.

                    --
                    Bookwyrm and Empath
                    Ontario, Canada
                  • m d b
                    ... castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_mu seum.html ... in ... I went in 1997, and can remember being intrigued by the wide
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jun 1, 2006
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                      > On 01/06/06, Jane Stockton <jane_stockton@...> wrote:
                      > > http://www.leeds-
                      castle.com/content/visiting_the_castle/dog_collar_museum/dog_collar_mu
                      seum.html
                      >
                      > A bit far for me to go. The curator was quite helpful by e-mail,
                      > however. Unfortunately, none of the over-the-top collars described
                      in
                      > the literature.

                      I went in 1997, and can remember being intrigued by the wide variety,
                      and there were spikes everywhere! I seriously doubted at the time
                      that some were in fact for use on real dogs;)

                      I don't know if I have any photos, I'll have a look and let you know
                      if I have any of interest. I know I changed films in the room, and
                      probably took at least one inside.

                      Here are some photos someone else took:
                      http://albums.laurenstravels.com/leeds-castle-grounds?page=5
                      http://community.webshots.com/album/60822265tbGuWX

                      I can't recall which ones I saw then were pre 1600, but I suspect
                      most of the photos shown above an't, but I'm sure there are more
                      photo galleries out there.

                      Leeds Castle really is lovely, and next time I get to England I will
                      be going, but not with a tour group;) I did a bus about day trip and
                      nearly got left at Canterbury Cathedral... I lost track of time and
                      got back just as the bus was pulling out at the top of the town...

                      Willemyne,
                      http://glittersweet.com
                    • d_archambeaux
                      ... are surviving finds from the middle ages. ... buckles to ... I have made a pair of pulling harnesses for my shepards to draw a small wagon, 6 ounce
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                        --- Bookwyrm <bookwyrm.com@...> wrote:
                        > If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar (which I do),
                        > Obviously, the most authentic medieval buckles would be ones that
                        are surviving finds from the middle ages.
                        > Would it be safe to trust a pair of small-ish centuries-old
                        buckles to
                        > continue to hold in use today, or do I go hunting for the best
                        > possible reproductions?

                        I have made a pair of pulling harnesses for my shepards to draw a
                        small wagon, 6 ounce leather well oiled, and padded at the collar.

                        For hardware, no don't risk a genuine artifact. I've been collecting
                        artifacts, from knives to horse tack, and I'd hate to see a
                        surviving piece be subjected to a lunging pulling dog.

                        Try to find a modern Feed and Tack store in your area. They'll
                        carry a wide variety of hardware for repairing horse saddles and
                        harness work. If you've got your medieval design in mind, you'll
                        find many odd shaped pieces that can be made to serve and be
                        reasonably authentic. For example, I've got a 12th cen. Snaffel Bit.
                        It is virtually identical to the modern item.

                        If the hardware is strong enough to hold a horse,
                        it'll manage any dog.


                        > Would those be cast, or forged?

                        Forged. for heavy duty items castings would be unlikely.

                        > On the last image, you can see what I take to be writing. Would
                        >it be > minimally intrusive to use a similar font to write "Service
                        Dog" on > the collar in modern English, in order to make the marking

                        Any form of marking you deem necessary is going to be acceptable.
                        This goes to the medical necessity threads that have been beaten to
                        death on the list. If the markings have got to be balze orange
                        with refelctive lettering, so be it.

                        My dogs in harness, were assumed to be "service animals" at Great
                        Western War. It really did suprise me, their harnesses are designed
                        for work, and the dogs while behavied enough to go to events, aren't
                        nearly well behavied enough to be service animals.

                        When marking your collar, keep in mind what can be scratched off
                        when the dog decides there is an itch under the new collar.
                        Mine removed alot of heraldic painting that I had done on the
                        harnesses.


                        Good Luck,
                        Ercule d'Archambeaux

                        Caid
                      • Andrea Hughett
                        ... I really don t want this read as a criticism, but I am interested in this as a philosophical point. In period, one would use a new buckle, not a
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                          > --- Bookwyrm <bookwyrm.com@...> wrote:
                          > > If I wanted to do a super-authentic dog collar
                          > (which I do),
                          > > Obviously, the most authentic medieval buckles
                          > would be ones that
                          > are surviving finds from the middle ages.

                          I really don't want this read as a criticism, but I am
                          interested in this as a philosophical point. In
                          period, one would use a new buckle, not a
                          centuries-old one. So although a surviving find gets
                          full points for material, style, workmanship, etc, it
                          fails on sturdiness, lack of wear and tear,
                          essentially on age. So which is super-authentic, a
                          surviving find or a new piece of work which copies as
                          much as possible that surviving find (minus the
                          ravages of the centuries)?

                          The same question occurred to me while reading an
                          excellent book on medieval furniture which includes
                          sections on how to "age" it. If one is trying to copy
                          an extant piece exactly as it is now, that makes
                          sense. But it is not how the piece would have appeared
                          when it was made.

                          Obviously different people are going to have different
                          takes on this question, but I am interested in how
                          people thing about it?

                          Andrea of Anglespur
                          kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                          So many books, so little time!

                          __________________________________________________
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                        • Bookwyrm
                          ... Ah, but that s the point. For ME, the markings are not medically necessary. The dog is medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a courtesy to those charged
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                            On 02/06/06, d_archambeaux <ericarchambault@...> wrote:
                            > > On the last image, you can see what I take to be writing. Would
                            > >it be > minimally intrusive to use a similar font to write "Service
                            > Dog" on > the collar in modern English, in order to make the marking
                            >
                            > Any form of marking you deem necessary is going to be acceptable.
                            > This goes to the medical necessity threads that have been beaten to
                            > death on the list. If the markings have got to be balze orange
                            > with refelctive lettering, so be it.

                            Ah, but that's the point. For ME, the markings are not medically
                            necessary. The dog is medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a
                            courtesy to those charged with keeping pets out of no-pets sites.

                            The balancing act here is to courteously not intrude on other people's
                            enjoyment with something obviously out of period, like his mundane
                            embroidered nylong backpack, while still making it clear enough to the
                            terribly harassed person who is trying to make sure the rules are
                            followed and we may, in fact, use the site again that I am no threat,
                            and that she doesn't need to spend a lot of time arguing with me about
                            whether or not the dog is allowed.

                            Rest assured that I would not consider compromising something
                            medically necessary for the sake of authenticity . . . but I do want
                            to make it minimally intrusive. Standard disclaimer about these being
                            my standards for me, not ones that I would attempt to apply to anybody
                            else. I'm not trying to beat it to death, just to find independent
                            opinions on a particular proposed balance.

                            --
                            Bookwyrm and Empath
                            Ontario, Canada
                          • Bookwyrm
                            ... If not new, at least recent? You re right, of course, that if they endlessly recycled buckles, there wouldn t be enough finds for them to be affordable.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                              On 02/06/06, Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...> wrote:
                              > In period, one would use a new buckle, not a
                              > centuries-old one.

                              If not new, at least recent? You're right, of course, that if they
                              endlessly recycled buckles, there wouldn't be enough finds for them to
                              be affordable. The most affordable artifacts are probably also the
                              most disposable. (The same holds true at a garage sale :-)

                              > So although a surviving find gets full points for
                              > material, style, workmanship, etc, it fails on
                              > sturdiness, lack of wear and tear, essentially on age.
                              > So which is super-authentic, a surviving find or a new
                              > piece of work which copies as much as possible that
                              > surviving find (minus the ravages of the centuries)?

                              Well, for me, part of the consideration was that metalwork is not one
                              of my skills. Buying a buckle is thus my only option. You are, of
                              course, correct in implying that a reasonably affluent persona would
                              have bought new . . . but this brings one to another issue: If the
                              original buckle was forged (as Ercule d'Archambeaux suggested to be
                              likely), modern buckles are stamped, and easily available
                              reproductions are cast (either from original work or from existing
                              finds)

                              Do I need to hunt down a smith?

                              > The same question occurred to me while reading an
                              > excellent book on medieval furniture which includes
                              > sections on how to "age" it. If one is trying to copy
                              > an extant piece exactly as it is now, that makes
                              > sense. But it is not how the piece would have appeared
                              > when it was made.

                              Hmm. But if we're doing things for recreational use, they won't GET
                              the same level of traffic that they would have gotten, and our
                              environments are different. I think my personal preference would be
                              to simulate how it would look after a year or two of use, rather than
                              centuries or brand new. Realistically, using brand new stuff is going
                              to be a fairly rare occurrence in a stuff-poor environment.

                              --
                              Bookwyrm and Empath
                              Ontario, Canada
                            • Dawn Malmstrom
                              ... In my opinion, any medical helper dog should be kept in their mundane uniforms . That way the mundane authorites can tell at a clance that they are
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jun 2, 2006
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                                > For ME, the markings are not medically necessary. The dog is
                                > medically necessary. The MARKINGS are a courtesy to those charged
                                > with keeping pets out of no-pets sites.
                                >
                                > The balancing act here is to courteously not intrude on other
                                > people's enjoyment with something obviously out of period, like his
                                > mundane embroidered nylong backpack, while still making it clear
                                > enough to the terribly harassed person who is trying to make sure
                                > the rules are followed and we may, in fact, use the site again that
                                > I am no threat, and that she doesn't need to spend a lot of time
                                > arguing with me about whether or not the dog is allowed.
                                >

                                In my opinion, any medical helper dog should be kept in their mundane
                                "uniforms". That way the mundane authorites can tell at a clance that
                                they are working dogs, not pets (this is the best way of ending any
                                argument with the people at gate). Like wheelchairs, these are
                                something that I would gladly use my visual filter to accept. Also,
                                many have been taught to aproach a working dog differently then a pet.

                                For the sake of the SCA folk and ease of the site crew, I would
                                contact the Autocrat for the event before the event and have papers
                                for the dog to give to the person at the gate and a copy for the
                                chiurgeon. The autocrat can inform the site owner of the helper dog
                                coming --there are many laws on the books that insure that he is
                                welcome-- and be ready for you at the gate (remember many people at
                                gate are new).

                                I know its extra work, but it beats getting to an event only to have
                                to argue your way in.

                                Donata Bonacorsi
                              • Terri Morgan
                                I can attest that when someone with a working dog contacted me (when I was the Pennsic Troll) ahead of time, it was *wonderful*. Not only did it brighten my
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
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                                  I can attest that when someone with a working dog contacted me (when I was
                                  the Pennsic Troll) ahead of time, it was *wonderful*. Not only did it
                                  brighten my day but it increased the number of volunteers I had when the
                                  word got out ("We're going to have a person come through with a sightdog/
                                  alarm dog/ trained monkey (!) and they'll be needing to contact ____ when
                                  they get here"). Everyone wanted to be the person who got to meet the dog
                                  and its owner *first*, indulgent folks that they were.

                                  I've seen working animals with and without special 'SCA' collars/backpacks -
                                  generally, there has been no problem in recognising them as such no matter
                                  what their collar looks like. When they're working, it's obvious. Use what
                                  appeals to you. But may I suggest that if you do decide to make a special
                                  'camping/vacation' collar for your dog, that you consider putting the
                                  Chirurgeons symbol on it somewhere if you are concerned about other folks
                                  being able to tell.


                                  Hrothny
                                • Bookwyrm
                                  ... That sounds like a wonderful idea. However, is it legal ? My dog is wonderful for MY needs, but he doesn t meet the standards to be part of the
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jun 4, 2006
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                                    On 04/06/06, Terri Morgan <online2much@...> wrote:
                                    > But may I suggest that if you do decide to make a special
                                    > 'camping/vacation' collar for your dog, that you consider
                                    > putting the Chirurgeons symbol on it somewhere if you are
                                    > concerned about other folks being able to tell.

                                    That sounds like a wonderful idea.

                                    However, is it 'legal"? My dog is wonderful for MY needs, but he
                                    doesn't meet the standards to be part of the chirugeonate.

                                    --
                                    Bookwyrm and Empath
                                    Ontario, Canada
                                  • Andrea Hughett
                                    Greetings all, Over the next several years I am going to be converting my house to a daycare center and the detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
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                                      Greetings all,

                                      Over the next several years I am going to be
                                      converting my house to a daycare center and the
                                      detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                                      room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                                      to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                                      century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                                      serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                                      machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                                      I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                                      when not actually in use.

                                      So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                                      anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                                      attempting to create.

                                      Thank you for your help.

                                      Andrea of Anglespur
                                      kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                                      So many books, so little time!

                                      __________________________________________________
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                                    • Susan B. Farmer
                                      ... While this may be later than you want, Peter Thornton has a book titled The Italian Renaissance Interior. *wonderful* book! Here s a review
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
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                                        Quoting Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...>:

                                        > Greetings all,
                                        >
                                        > Over the next several years I am going to be
                                        > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                                        > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                                        > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                                        > to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                                        > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                                        > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                                        > machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                                        > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                                        > when not actually in use.
                                        >
                                        > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                                        > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                                        > attempting to create.

                                        While this may be later than you want, Peter Thornton has a book titled
                                        The Italian Renaissance Interior.

                                        *wonderful* book!

                                        Here's a review
                                        http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3394/is_199409/ai_n8140290

                                        ILL may be your friend. As I recall, this is a pricey book.

                                        Jerusha
                                        -----
                                        Susan Farmer
                                        sfarmer@...
                                        University of Tennessee
                                        Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                                        http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
                                      • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
                                        A few thoughts: Chests and trunks make great places to store things (and it provides a place to put the sewing machine, etc., once you take it out). Ikea used
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jun 19, 2006
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                                          A few thoughts:

                                          Chests and trunks make great places to store things (and it provides a
                                          place to put the sewing machine, etc., once you take it out). Ikea
                                          used to have some nice wooden chests that could easily be modified
                                          (painted, decorated, etc.) to fit into a more mediaeval look.

                                          For computers: Think about wireless computers and using laptops. The
                                          laptops can be hidden out of sight easily enough, and have the
                                          advantage of being portable.

                                          You can use curtains around the walls--a popular wall covering, at
                                          least in the 15th and 16th centuries (and I believe earlier) in
                                          England. This can allow you to hide doors or other items, if you
                                          want.

                                          Perhaps further than you want to go: World Market has some nice
                                          matting that reminds me of the rush mats that might give a good feel
                                          to the room, but I've not tried it myself.

                                          Just a few thoughts late at night.


                                          -Ii
                                        • Tiffany Brown
                                          The first two references that spring to mind: U.T. Holmes Daily living in the 12th Century I m sure you ve heard about it by now, possibly even read it. It
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                            The first two references that spring to mind:

                                            U.T. Holmes "Daily living in the 12th Century"
                                            I'm sure you've heard about it by now, possibly even read it. It has
                                            a long chapter describing the layout of a townhouse, and annother
                                            describing a country manor.
                                            The description seems to indicate rather less clutter of posetions
                                            than today, but false walls or wall hangings might be effective for
                                            soem intense storage spaces. Beds with hangings (to keep the warmth
                                            in) were the fashion, so maybe a fake bed wit hthe curtains closed
                                            could serve as a space for the sewing machine and other clutter?.

                                            Zarnecki (ed) "romenesque art" book and companion video
                                            There are several extant 12th C english buildings. One a dwelling in
                                            an upstairs corner of a warehouse. The book is great for fittings -
                                            check out the doorknobs and oil lamps, the video give a very brief,
                                            but 3D tour of some of those buildings.

                                            If you can't find those books instantly, let me know and I'll dig out
                                            a proper citation.

                                            There are also a lot of 12th C extant bits and bobs in museum online
                                            photo libraries - trunks, wall hangings, that sort of thing.

                                            Sounds like a facinating project,
                                            Teffania

                                            On 6/20/06, Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...> wrote:
                                            > Greetings all,
                                            >
                                            > Over the next several years I am going to be
                                            > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                                            > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                                            > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be fun
                                            > to do it in a medieval style, more or less 12th/13th
                                            > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would not
                                            > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                                            > machine, computer, and excessive books from the place,
                                            > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind curtains
                                            > when not actually in use.
                                            >
                                            > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                                            > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance I am
                                            > attempting to create.
                                            >
                                            > Thank you for your help.
                                            >
                                            > Andrea of Anglespur
                                            > kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                                            > So many books, so little time!
                                            >
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                                          • Dragon
                                            MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST THANK YOU Hi, It does indeed sound fascinating, I do hope you will post pics and stuff. A lot depends on how accurate
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                              MODERATOR NOTE:
                                              PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                                              THANK YOU

                                              Hi,

                                              It does indeed sound fascinating, I do hope you will post pics and stuff.

                                              A lot depends on how accurate you want to get. A lot of churches are
                                              being refitted around the country, you might find some treasure if you
                                              check out the architectural salvage places. I doubt it would be
                                              genuinely medieval but it might have the right look.

                                              Just a thought.

                                              Dragon
                                            • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                                              Andrea of Anglespur....room ideas Dear Lady, Last autumn I had my 2 1/2 car garage converted into a medieval Hall. The area that would have been the buttery
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                                Andrea of Anglespur....room ideas

                                                Dear Lady,

                                                Last autumn I had my 2 1/2 car garage converted into a medieval Hall. The area that would have been the buttery is my lovely laundry room that has excellent disguise when we have get togethers and all serving of beverages etc. takes place from this room. Where the solar would have been I have a storage rooom above the buttery and part of the hall, with a drop down staircase. We left the structural beams and enclosed them in somewhat rough planking to increase the size. These were burned with a torch to darken and age them before they were stained. I had a closet built to the approximate design of one I saw in Warrick Castle and also imitated a method of hanging colothing items on the wall. I went with modern triple glazed windows with cross hatching as I wanted all the light I could get for needlework, spinning and such. Fortunately I already had found a wall sconce and a chandelier on Ebay that are perfect in the lighting. The doorways are arched and the one into
                                                the house is waiting for it's planks. I found some nice hardware at Lowe's, and in catalogs.

                                                My real concession to medieval decorating is coming out in my wall paintings. I am copying several marvelous figures that I found in Easby Abby, England and in some examples of Danish church interiors. I did not initially think of painting anything more than faux stone walls, but I am hooked now on the murals. The odd shapes of the roof line and other bits are lending themselves nicely to some little odds and ends of characters I found here and there in wall art.

                                                We finished up with iron rods for curtains, antlers, old dark furniture and persian rugs and it is all coming together. It's the favorite room of the house.

                                                Hope this helps. If you have questions let me know.

                                                Elyn de Haoucmore




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                                              • Christiana
                                                Another response to: ... Here are 4 books to look up. The first 3 I have not had time to cross compare so I can t comment on accuracy, but they may be of some
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jun 20, 2006
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                                                  Another response to:

                                                  Andrea Hughett <aindreva@...>:
                                                  >
                                                  > > Greetings all,
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Over the next several years I am going to be
                                                  > > converting my house to a daycare center and the
                                                  > > detached two-car garage to an adult retreat/sewing
                                                  > > room/cat haven/library/office. I think it would be
                                                  > fun
                                                  > > to do it in a medieval style, more or less
                                                  > 12th/13th
                                                  > > century Welsh/British. Although it obviously would
                                                  > not
                                                  > > serve my needs to omit necessities such as sewing
                                                  > > machine, computer, and excessive books from the
                                                  > place,
                                                  > > I do want to hide them in furniture or behind
                                                  > curtains
                                                  > > when not actually in use.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > So I am looking for ideas, pictures, descriptions,
                                                  > > anything that will help me visualize the ambiance
                                                  > I am
                                                  > > attempting to create.
                                                  >

                                                  Here are 4 books to look up. The first 3 I have not
                                                  had time to cross compare so I can't comment on
                                                  accuracy, but they may be of some use:
                                                  Life on a Medieval Barony by William Stearns Davis (an
                                                  early 20th century book, with a scholarly background)
                                                  A Baronial Household of the 13th Century by Margaret
                                                  Wade Labarge (mid 20th century)
                                                  Growing Up in the 13th Century by Alfred Duggan (publ.
                                                  in England, mid 20th C)
                                                  Lastly, I offer a definitely good quality book:
                                                  Pilgrimage to Rome in the Middle Ages by Debra J.
                                                  Birch, ISSN 0955-2480 by Boydell and Brewer. This
                                                  originallly sold at $95 locally, but I waited VERY
                                                  patiently until it was marked down enough to be
                                                  affordable! Despite the subject, there is good info
                                                  to glean. Well researched.

                                                  Christiana de Avochelie

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                                                • Jerilyn Winstead
                                                  MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST THANK YOU Elyn, please please please post some photos!!!!! drooling here Jane
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jun 21, 2006
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                                                    MODERATOR NOTE:
                                                    PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST TO THIS LIST
                                                    THANK YOU

                                                    Elyn, please please please post some photos!!!!!

                                                    drooling here

                                                    Jane
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