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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Palm Sunday Mass in period

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  • Chris Laning
    ... Without being able to put my hand on reference books at the moment, I m pretty sure that yes, it s period, and generally what seems to happen is that some
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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      At 7:30 PM +1000 4/9/06, Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
      >I've just come home from Palm Sunday Mass and it occurred to me that palm
      >fronds and the traditional substitute, olive twigs would have been very hard
      >to get in north western Europe, so does anybody know if the blessing of the
      >palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in period or is it a post
      >period addition? And if it was a period tradition what sort of substitute
      >was used? Now it's fairly easy to either import these from warmer areas or
      >grow them in a hot house but these are not period options.
      >Any resources or conjecture?

      Without being able to put my hand on reference books at the moment,
      I'm pretty sure that yes, it's period, and generally what seems to
      happen is that some hapless local plant is seized on as the accepted
      local stand-in for palm fronds. I know that in England, it's often
      willow twigs, which don't in the least look like palm leaves, but
      which are at least showing some signs of life at this time of year
      (i.e. blooming).

      IIRC, it's even fairly common for the local favorite to be referred
      to as "palm" at other times of year.
      --
      ____________________________________________________________

      O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
      + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
      http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
      ____________________________________________________________
    • borderlands15213
      ... that palm ... very hard ... blessing of the ... a post ... substitute ... and generally what seems to ... accepted ... A friend s
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Chris Laning <claning@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > At 7:30 PM +1000 4/9/06, Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
        > >I've just come home from Palm Sunday Mass and it occurred to me
        that palm
        > >fronds and the traditional substitute, olive twigs would have been
        very hard
        > >to get in north western Europe, so does anybody know if the
        blessing of the
        > >palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in period or is it
        a post
        > >period addition? And if it was a period tradition what sort of
        substitute
        > >was used? <<snipped>>>>
        <<snipped>>> and generally what seems to
        > happen is that some hapless local plant is seized on as the
        accepted
        > local stand-in for palm fronds. I know that in England, it's often
        > willow twigs, which don't in the least look like palm leaves, but
        > which are at least showing some signs of life at this time of year
        > (i.e. blooming).
        <<snipped>>>

        A friend's family is Ukranian Orthodox and has been receiving blessed
        pollard willows, what in the US we usually call pussy-willow, every
        Orthodox Palm Sunday. His mother plants them *every* Easter-tide,
        and no matter the month, the weather, or what-may-you, those things
        root, grow, and bloom the following year, and the year after, and
        after, et cetera.
        So, the English substitution would make sense, if this works in
        Ukraine and in the northeastern United States in March or April.

        Yseult the Gentle
      • Lyle H. Gray
        ... Yes, pussy-willows grow in the northeastern United States in March and/or April. It s one of our signs of Spring. Lyle FitzWilliam -- Lyle H. Gray
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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          On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, borderlands15213 wrote:

          > A friend's family is Ukranian Orthodox and has been receiving blessed
          > pollard willows, what in the US we usually call pussy-willow, every
          > Orthodox Palm Sunday. His mother plants them *every* Easter-tide,
          > and no matter the month, the weather, or what-may-you, those things
          > root, grow, and bloom the following year, and the year after, and
          > after, et cetera.
          > So, the English substitution would make sense, if this works in
          > Ukraine and in the northeastern United States in March or April.

          Yes, pussy-willows grow in the northeastern United States in
          March and/or April. It's one of our signs of Spring.

          Lyle FitzWilliam

          --
          Lyle H. Gray
          gray@... -- text only, please
          http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
          --
          Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
        • Andrea Hughett
          ... so does anybody know ... Although I don t have any information about period practice the Eastern Orthodox still use pussy willows (nowadays along with the
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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            --- Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...> wrote:

            so does anybody know
            > if the blessing of the
            > palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in
            > period or is it a post
            > period addition? And if it was a period tradition
            > what sort of substitute
            > was used?

            Although I don't have any information about period
            practice the Eastern Orthodox still use pussy willows
            (nowadays along with the palms, but originally instead
            of) for the very reason that palms would not have been
            available in Russia et al.

            I think also, and someone will correct me if I am
            wrong, that the Jewish pilgrims coming to Jerusalem
            for the Passover would have had willow branches? Which
            would explain why the Orthodox custom arose.

            Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
            mka Andrea

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          • borderlands15213
            I know they do, Lyle. What amazes me is that this lady has *never* had a failure-to-take-root of any of the pollard willows which have been blessed,
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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              I know they do, Lyle. <VBG> What amazes me is that this lady has
              *never* had a failure-to-take-root of any of the pollard willows
              which have been blessed, but vows and declares other cuttings of
              pollard-willows won't take root for her. <shrug>

              Yseult the Gentle

              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Lyle H. Gray" <gray@...> wrote:
              >
              > On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, borderlands15213 wrote:
              >
              > > A friend's family is Ukranian Orthodox and has been receiving
              blessed
              > > pollard willows, <<snipped>>> His mother plants them *every*
              Easter-tide,
              > > and no matter the month, the weather, or what-may-you, those
              things
              > > root, grow, and bloom the following year <<<snipped>>>.
              >
              > Yes, pussy-willows grow in the northeastern United States in
              > March and/or April. It's one of our signs of Spring.
              >
              > Lyle FitzWilliam
              >
              > --
              > Lyle H. Gray
              > gray@... -- text only, please
              > http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
              > --
              > Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
              >
            • Lady_Lark_Azure
              You know, in all of the years I ve been in the SCA and thought about my faith in period, the Palm fronds were one thing I never wondered how they did it.
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 10, 2006
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                You know, in all of the years I've been in the SCA and thought about
                my faith in period, the Palm fronds were one thing I never wondered
                how they did it. Thanks for starting the discussion.

                When I used to sing at the cathedral in Newark, my first Maundy
                Thursday mass brought on one of those continuity moments. For those
                who don't know, for Catholics, Thursday's mass is the last one until
                the Easter vigil (Mass of the Ressurection) on Saturday night.
                Therefore, they have to consecrate extra hosts/bread for the
                Veneration of the Cross on Friday, which is then placed in the
                tabernacle.

                At the cathedral this meant a procession--the archbishop, coped and
                mitered, walking under a canopy on poles carried by four accolytes,
                following the crucifer (cross bearer), thurifer (incense bearer) and
                candle bearers. This was followed by the choir, then the
                congregation. We would process down the main aisle and back up the
                side aisle to the lady chapel behind the main alter. All of this
                while chanting Pange Lingua/Tantum Ergo an 11th century hymn--and for
                those who have never seen it, Sacred Heart is a splendid gothic
                building. The thought that I was doing this as it had been done for
                nearly a thousand years was pretty powerful.

                Isabeau
              • Chris Laning
                I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on the following detail of a painting:
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 14, 2006
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                  I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on
                  the following detail of a painting:

                  http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG

                  This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                  "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                  1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                  "palm" for the occasion.
                  --
                  ____________________________________________________________

                  O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                  + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                  http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                  ____________________________________________________________
                • Susan B. Farmer
                  ... Cool. Some sort of Willow (Salix sp.) species to me. :-) Is there a link to information about the painting itself? Jerusha ... Susan Farmer
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 15, 2006
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                    Quoting Chris Laning <claning@...>:

                    > I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on
                    > the following detail of a painting:
                    >
                    > http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG
                    >
                    > This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                    > "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                    > 1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                    > "palm" for the occasion.

                    Cool. Some sort of Willow (Salix sp.) species to me. :-)

                    Is there a link to information about the painting itself?

                    Jerusha
                    -----
                    Susan Farmer
                    sfarmer@...
                    University of Tennessee
                    Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                    http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
                  • borderlands15213
                    From what I can see on this monitor, that s a pollard (pussy) willow; the artist very carefully delineated the blooming catkins. Yseult the Gentle
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 15, 2006
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                      From what I can see on this monitor, that's a pollard (pussy) willow;
                      the artist very carefully delineated the blooming catkins.

                      Yseult the Gentle


                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Chris Laning <claning@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on
                      > the following detail of a painting:
                      >
                      > http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG
                      >
                      > This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                      > "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                      > 1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                      > "palm" for the occasion.
                      > --
                      > ____________________________________________________________
                      >
                      > O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                      > + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                      > http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                      > ____________________________________________________________
                      >
                    • Chris Laning
                      ... No, alas, only the date and time I noted. (And that s only if I translated the German correctly.....) I found the painting by going to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 15, 2006
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                        At 8:36 AM -0400 4/15/06, Susan B. Farmer wrote:
                        >Quoting Chris Laning <claning@...>:
                        > > http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG
                        >>
                        >> This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                        >> "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                        >> 1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                        >> "palm" for the occasion.
                        >
                        >Cool. Some sort of Willow (Salix sp.) species to me. :-)
                        >
                        >Is there a link to information about the painting itself?

                        No, alas, only the date and time I noted. (And that's only if I
                        translated the German correctly.....)

                        I found the painting by going to
                        http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/ , selecting "Personnamen"
                        from the drop-down options in the top menu on the left and clicking
                        on the "Auswohlen" button, and then typing in "hl. klara" in the
                        input box at the bottom, and clicking on "Zeige Bilder". This brings
                        up a bunch of thumbnails with information in the right-hand frame on
                        the screen. (Be patient, it may take the page awhile to load
                        completely.) It's about the fourth item down.
                        --
                        ____________________________________________________________
                        O Christian Ashley, gentlewoman to Lady Stafford
                        + Chris Laning <claning@...>
                        O Guild of St. George, Northern California
                        + http://paternosters.blogspot.com - http://paternoster-row.org
                        ____________________________________________________________
                      • faena0216
                        MODERATOR NOTE - KINDLY SIGN YOUR POSTS. THANK YOU. From Medieval-religion: The sixth Sunday in Lent, or Sunday before Easter, is called in the old Missal
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 27, 2006
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                          MODERATOR NOTE - KINDLY SIGN YOUR POSTS. THANK YOU.

                          From Medieval-religion:

                          The sixth Sunday in Lent, or Sunday before Easter, is called in the
                          old
                          Missal Dominica in Palmis, that is, Palm Sunday. In the modern Missal
                          it is called Passion Sunday, a term formerly used of the fifth Sunday
                          in Lent. Its Mass contains two striking features: The blessing and
                          distribution of palms, and the reading of the long Passion narrative.

                          I quote from "Historical Survey of Holy Week: Its Services and
                          Ceremonial" by J.W. Tyrer, Alcuin Club Collections no. xxix (1932):

                          `The Blessing of Palms and the Procession which follows it were
                          introduced into the West at a comparatively late date. They are not
                          mentioned by Isidore in his account of Palm Sunday . . . not by
                          Rabanus
                          Maurus . . . who simply repeats Isidore. Nor do any of the early
                          Sacramentaries . . . say anything about them, nor does O[rdo] R
                          [omanus
                          primus], though it gives a full account of the ceremonies of Holy
                          Week.
                          Aldhelm, bishop of Sherborne (A.D. 705-9) mentions indeed the custom
                          of
                          singing Hosanna in church on Palm Sunday but nothing more . . . But
                          Amalarius of Metz, a contemporary of Rabanus Maurus . . . adds "In
                          memory of this we are accustomed throughout our churches to carry
                          branches and to cry Hosanna"' (p. 49-50).

                          It would appear then that we are talking about a ninth-century
                          innovation. It may be of interest to mention what these branches were
                          made of, since palm was not easily available in Northern Europe.
                          Tyrer
                          again:

                          `In countries where neither palms nor olives grew some substitutes
                          had
                          to be provided. And what these substitutes were in England is shown
                          by
                          churchwarden's accounts of the fifteenth and sixteen centuries. Box
                          was
                          not unfrequently used for this purpose . . . Sometimes Yew appears,
                          instead of Box or in addition to it . . . But the commonest
                          substitute,
                          the one indeed almost invariably mentioned, is Palm, by which is
                          meant,
                          not real palms, but willow branches, covered as they are in early
                          spring with beautiful catkins . . . In my youth in Lancashire we
                          always
                          spoke of the branches of the flowering willow as `palms', and
                          certainly
                          they are much more comely and fit for use in God's service than the
                          dried palm-leaves so fashionable nowadays. It must not be forgotten
                          that the branches of trees were everywhere supplemented by Flowers'
                          (p.
                          55-56).
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