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Palm Sunday Mass in period

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  • Elizabeth Walpole
    WARNING Religion ahead tune out now if you don t like such discussions (n.b. I m not looking for opinions so it s not inflammatory but some people get
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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      WARNING Religion ahead tune out now if you don't like such discussions (n.b.
      I'm not looking for opinions so it's not inflammatory but some people get
      concerned about any mention of religion)
      I've just come home from Palm Sunday Mass and it occurred to me that palm
      fronds and the traditional substitute, olive twigs would have been very hard
      to get in north western Europe, so does anybody know if the blessing of the
      palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in period or is it a post
      period addition? And if it was a period tradition what sort of substitute
      was used? Now it's fairly easy to either import these from warmer areas or
      grow them in a hot house but these are not period options.
      Any resources or conjecture?
      Elizabeth
      --------------------------------------------
      Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
      Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
      ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
      http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/
    • Bruce
      I can only offer conjecture, not documentation, but it may help you determine what to look for if you research this further. My first thought is that the
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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        I can only offer conjecture, not documentation, but it may help you
        determine what to look for if you research this further.

        My first thought is that the extent of trade during and before the
        Middle-Ages is often under estimated. Secondly, Britain is only 1300
        miles away from North Africa by sea. Even in a ship traveling with an
        average speed of just 4 knots would be able to sail that distance in
        12 days.

        So it is possible. But just because it could have been done, doesn't
        mean that it was done.

        Su criado humilde,
        --Diego
      • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
        http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=105 This website has quite a bit of information on the history of Palm Sunday. When you scroll down, it
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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          http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=105
          This website has quite a bit of information on the history of Palm
          Sunday. When you scroll down, it talks about what was used by people
          who couldn't obtain palm. It also mentions as part of the procession
          an image of Jesus on a donkey was pulled & some of these images
          still survive, that might be something to research. I'm going to
          look & see if I can find any of these on line.
          Toujours a vos ordres,
          Margaret Hepburn
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Elizabeth Walpole"
          <ewalpole@...> wrote:
          >
          > WARNING Religion ahead tune out now if you don't like such
          discussions (n.b.
          > I'm not looking for opinions so it's not inflammatory but some
          people get
          > concerned about any mention of religion)
          > I've just come home from Palm Sunday Mass and it occurred to me
          that palm
          > fronds and the traditional substitute, olive twigs would have been
          very hard
          > to get in north western Europe, so does anybody know if the
          blessing of the
          > palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in period or is it
          a post
          > period addition? And if it was a period tradition what sort of
          substitute
          > was used? Now it's fairly easy to either import these from warmer
          areas or
          > grow them in a hot house but these are not period options.
          > Any resources or conjecture?
          > Elizabeth
          > --------------------------------------------
          > Elizabeth Walpole | Elizabeth Beaumont
          > Canberra, Australia | Politarchopolis, Lochac
          > ewalpole[at]tpg.com.au
          > http://au.geocities.com/e_walpole/
          >
        • Chris Laning
          ... Without being able to put my hand on reference books at the moment, I m pretty sure that yes, it s period, and generally what seems to happen is that some
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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            At 7:30 PM +1000 4/9/06, Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
            >I've just come home from Palm Sunday Mass and it occurred to me that palm
            >fronds and the traditional substitute, olive twigs would have been very hard
            >to get in north western Europe, so does anybody know if the blessing of the
            >palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in period or is it a post
            >period addition? And if it was a period tradition what sort of substitute
            >was used? Now it's fairly easy to either import these from warmer areas or
            >grow them in a hot house but these are not period options.
            >Any resources or conjecture?

            Without being able to put my hand on reference books at the moment,
            I'm pretty sure that yes, it's period, and generally what seems to
            happen is that some hapless local plant is seized on as the accepted
            local stand-in for palm fronds. I know that in England, it's often
            willow twigs, which don't in the least look like palm leaves, but
            which are at least showing some signs of life at this time of year
            (i.e. blooming).

            IIRC, it's even fairly common for the local favorite to be referred
            to as "palm" at other times of year.
            --
            ____________________________________________________________

            O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
            + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
            http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
            ____________________________________________________________
          • borderlands15213
            ... that palm ... very hard ... blessing of the ... a post ... substitute ... and generally what seems to ... accepted ... A friend s
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Chris Laning <claning@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > At 7:30 PM +1000 4/9/06, Elizabeth Walpole wrote:
              > >I've just come home from Palm Sunday Mass and it occurred to me
              that palm
              > >fronds and the traditional substitute, olive twigs would have been
              very hard
              > >to get in north western Europe, so does anybody know if the
              blessing of the
              > >palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in period or is it
              a post
              > >period addition? And if it was a period tradition what sort of
              substitute
              > >was used? <<snipped>>>>
              <<snipped>>> and generally what seems to
              > happen is that some hapless local plant is seized on as the
              accepted
              > local stand-in for palm fronds. I know that in England, it's often
              > willow twigs, which don't in the least look like palm leaves, but
              > which are at least showing some signs of life at this time of year
              > (i.e. blooming).
              <<snipped>>>

              A friend's family is Ukranian Orthodox and has been receiving blessed
              pollard willows, what in the US we usually call pussy-willow, every
              Orthodox Palm Sunday. His mother plants them *every* Easter-tide,
              and no matter the month, the weather, or what-may-you, those things
              root, grow, and bloom the following year, and the year after, and
              after, et cetera.
              So, the English substitution would make sense, if this works in
              Ukraine and in the northeastern United States in March or April.

              Yseult the Gentle
            • Lyle H. Gray
              ... Yes, pussy-willows grow in the northeastern United States in March and/or April. It s one of our signs of Spring. Lyle FitzWilliam -- Lyle H. Gray
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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                On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, borderlands15213 wrote:

                > A friend's family is Ukranian Orthodox and has been receiving blessed
                > pollard willows, what in the US we usually call pussy-willow, every
                > Orthodox Palm Sunday. His mother plants them *every* Easter-tide,
                > and no matter the month, the weather, or what-may-you, those things
                > root, grow, and bloom the following year, and the year after, and
                > after, et cetera.
                > So, the English substitution would make sense, if this works in
                > Ukraine and in the northeastern United States in March or April.

                Yes, pussy-willows grow in the northeastern United States in
                March and/or April. It's one of our signs of Spring.

                Lyle FitzWilliam

                --
                Lyle H. Gray
                gray@... -- text only, please
                http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
                --
                Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
              • Andrea Hughett
                ... so does anybody know ... Although I don t have any information about period practice the Eastern Orthodox still use pussy willows (nowadays along with the
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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                  --- Elizabeth Walpole <ewalpole@...> wrote:

                  so does anybody know
                  > if the blessing of the
                  > palm fronds was a part of the Palm Sunday Mass in
                  > period or is it a post
                  > period addition? And if it was a period tradition
                  > what sort of substitute
                  > was used?

                  Although I don't have any information about period
                  practice the Eastern Orthodox still use pussy willows
                  (nowadays along with the palms, but originally instead
                  of) for the very reason that palms would not have been
                  available in Russia et al.

                  I think also, and someone will correct me if I am
                  wrong, that the Jewish pilgrims coming to Jerusalem
                  for the Passover would have had willow branches? Which
                  would explain why the Orthodox custom arose.

                  Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt
                  mka Andrea

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                • borderlands15213
                  I know they do, Lyle. What amazes me is that this lady has *never* had a failure-to-take-root of any of the pollard willows which have been blessed,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 9, 2006
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                    I know they do, Lyle. <VBG> What amazes me is that this lady has
                    *never* had a failure-to-take-root of any of the pollard willows
                    which have been blessed, but vows and declares other cuttings of
                    pollard-willows won't take root for her. <shrug>

                    Yseult the Gentle

                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Lyle H. Gray" <gray@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > On Mon, 10 Apr 2006, borderlands15213 wrote:
                    >
                    > > A friend's family is Ukranian Orthodox and has been receiving
                    blessed
                    > > pollard willows, <<snipped>>> His mother plants them *every*
                    Easter-tide,
                    > > and no matter the month, the weather, or what-may-you, those
                    things
                    > > root, grow, and bloom the following year <<<snipped>>>.
                    >
                    > Yes, pussy-willows grow in the northeastern United States in
                    > March and/or April. It's one of our signs of Spring.
                    >
                    > Lyle FitzWilliam
                    >
                    > --
                    > Lyle H. Gray
                    > gray@... -- text only, please
                    > http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
                    > --
                    > Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
                    >
                  • Lady_Lark_Azure
                    You know, in all of the years I ve been in the SCA and thought about my faith in period, the Palm fronds were one thing I never wondered how they did it.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Apr 10, 2006
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                      You know, in all of the years I've been in the SCA and thought about
                      my faith in period, the Palm fronds were one thing I never wondered
                      how they did it. Thanks for starting the discussion.

                      When I used to sing at the cathedral in Newark, my first Maundy
                      Thursday mass brought on one of those continuity moments. For those
                      who don't know, for Catholics, Thursday's mass is the last one until
                      the Easter vigil (Mass of the Ressurection) on Saturday night.
                      Therefore, they have to consecrate extra hosts/bread for the
                      Veneration of the Cross on Friday, which is then placed in the
                      tabernacle.

                      At the cathedral this meant a procession--the archbishop, coped and
                      mitered, walking under a canopy on poles carried by four accolytes,
                      following the crucifer (cross bearer), thurifer (incense bearer) and
                      candle bearers. This was followed by the choir, then the
                      congregation. We would process down the main aisle and back up the
                      side aisle to the lady chapel behind the main alter. All of this
                      while chanting Pange Lingua/Tantum Ergo an 11th century hymn--and for
                      those who have never seen it, Sacred Heart is a splendid gothic
                      building. The thought that I was doing this as it had been done for
                      nearly a thousand years was pretty powerful.

                      Isabeau
                    • Chris Laning
                      I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on the following detail of a painting:
                      Message 10 of 14 , Apr 14, 2006
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                        I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on
                        the following detail of a painting:

                        http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG

                        This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                        "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                        1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                        "palm" for the occasion.
                        --
                        ____________________________________________________________

                        O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                        + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                        http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                        ____________________________________________________________
                      • Susan B. Farmer
                        ... Cool. Some sort of Willow (Salix sp.) species to me. :-) Is there a link to information about the painting itself? Jerusha ... Susan Farmer
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 15, 2006
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                          Quoting Chris Laning <claning@...>:

                          > I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on
                          > the following detail of a painting:
                          >
                          > http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG
                          >
                          > This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                          > "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                          > 1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                          > "palm" for the occasion.

                          Cool. Some sort of Willow (Salix sp.) species to me. :-)

                          Is there a link to information about the painting itself?

                          Jerusha
                          -----
                          Susan Farmer
                          sfarmer@...
                          University of Tennessee
                          Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                          http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
                        • borderlands15213
                          From what I can see on this monitor, that s a pollard (pussy) willow; the artist very carefully delineated the blooming catkins. Yseult the Gentle
                          Message 12 of 14 , Apr 15, 2006
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                            From what I can see on this monitor, that's a pollard (pussy) willow;
                            the artist very carefully delineated the blooming catkins.

                            Yseult the Gentle


                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Chris Laning <claning@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I was looking for something else online this evening, and happened on
                            > the following detail of a painting:
                            >
                            > http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG
                            >
                            > This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                            > "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                            > 1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                            > "palm" for the occasion.
                            > --
                            > ____________________________________________________________
                            >
                            > O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                            > + Kingdom of the West - Chris Laning <claning@...>
                            > http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                            > ____________________________________________________________
                            >
                          • Chris Laning
                            ... No, alas, only the date and time I noted. (And that s only if I translated the German correctly.....) I found the painting by going to
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 15, 2006
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                              At 8:36 AM -0400 4/15/06, Susan B. Farmer wrote:
                              >Quoting Chris Laning <claning@...>:
                              > > http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7006293.JPG
                              >>
                              >> This is an anonymous painting of the Bishop of Assisi bestowing a
                              >> "palm" on St. Clare on Palm Sunday. It's from Bamberg, dated about
                              >> 1465-75, and clearly shows some other plant playing the role of the
                              >> "palm" for the occasion.
                              >
                              >Cool. Some sort of Willow (Salix sp.) species to me. :-)
                              >
                              >Is there a link to information about the painting itself?

                              No, alas, only the date and time I noted. (And that's only if I
                              translated the German correctly.....)

                              I found the painting by going to
                              http://www.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/realonline/ , selecting "Personnamen"
                              from the drop-down options in the top menu on the left and clicking
                              on the "Auswohlen" button, and then typing in "hl. klara" in the
                              input box at the bottom, and clicking on "Zeige Bilder". This brings
                              up a bunch of thumbnails with information in the right-hand frame on
                              the screen. (Be patient, it may take the page awhile to load
                              completely.) It's about the fourth item down.
                              --
                              ____________________________________________________________
                              O Christian Ashley, gentlewoman to Lady Stafford
                              + Chris Laning <claning@...>
                              O Guild of St. George, Northern California
                              + http://paternosters.blogspot.com - http://paternoster-row.org
                              ____________________________________________________________
                            • faena0216
                              MODERATOR NOTE - KINDLY SIGN YOUR POSTS. THANK YOU. From Medieval-religion: The sixth Sunday in Lent, or Sunday before Easter, is called in the old Missal
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 27, 2006
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                                MODERATOR NOTE - KINDLY SIGN YOUR POSTS. THANK YOU.

                                From Medieval-religion:

                                The sixth Sunday in Lent, or Sunday before Easter, is called in the
                                old
                                Missal Dominica in Palmis, that is, Palm Sunday. In the modern Missal
                                it is called Passion Sunday, a term formerly used of the fifth Sunday
                                in Lent. Its Mass contains two striking features: The blessing and
                                distribution of palms, and the reading of the long Passion narrative.

                                I quote from "Historical Survey of Holy Week: Its Services and
                                Ceremonial" by J.W. Tyrer, Alcuin Club Collections no. xxix (1932):

                                `The Blessing of Palms and the Procession which follows it were
                                introduced into the West at a comparatively late date. They are not
                                mentioned by Isidore in his account of Palm Sunday . . . not by
                                Rabanus
                                Maurus . . . who simply repeats Isidore. Nor do any of the early
                                Sacramentaries . . . say anything about them, nor does O[rdo] R
                                [omanus
                                primus], though it gives a full account of the ceremonies of Holy
                                Week.
                                Aldhelm, bishop of Sherborne (A.D. 705-9) mentions indeed the custom
                                of
                                singing Hosanna in church on Palm Sunday but nothing more . . . But
                                Amalarius of Metz, a contemporary of Rabanus Maurus . . . adds "In
                                memory of this we are accustomed throughout our churches to carry
                                branches and to cry Hosanna"' (p. 49-50).

                                It would appear then that we are talking about a ninth-century
                                innovation. It may be of interest to mention what these branches were
                                made of, since palm was not easily available in Northern Europe.
                                Tyrer
                                again:

                                `In countries where neither palms nor olives grew some substitutes
                                had
                                to be provided. And what these substitutes were in England is shown
                                by
                                churchwarden's accounts of the fifteenth and sixteen centuries. Box
                                was
                                not unfrequently used for this purpose . . . Sometimes Yew appears,
                                instead of Box or in addition to it . . . But the commonest
                                substitute,
                                the one indeed almost invariably mentioned, is Palm, by which is
                                meant,
                                not real palms, but willow branches, covered as they are in early
                                spring with beautiful catkins . . . In my youth in Lancashire we
                                always
                                spoke of the branches of the flowering willow as `palms', and
                                certainly
                                they are much more comely and fit for use in God's service than the
                                dried palm-leaves so fashionable nowadays. It must not be forgotten
                                that the branches of trees were everywhere supplemented by Flowers'
                                (p.
                                55-56).
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