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Re: Need some sewing guidance... turret/pillbox hats

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  • Emmie
    ... the same way that gopherred veils are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself. IMHO, yes, with other culture like the
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Laura Morgan
      <valkerie1000@...> wrote:
      >
      > you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made
      the same way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be
      made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself.


      IMHO, yes, with other culture like the English and French that was
      true. THe hats found in the Codex though, I believe that was some
      typ of cording or a braid. Though I am curious of the wool ruffle
      Elyn mentioned. I posted some pictures from some German art from
      near the time era that show decorated fillets that appear to be
      cording. THere are also a few folios from the Manesse Codex, to
      include one that shows a gopherred veil. It looks very different
      than the "pork pie hats" do. Again, just MHO.

      YIS,

      Elisabeth Hänsel
    • SilverLoon2001@aol.com
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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        << you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made the same
        way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge
        that frilled by itself. That might be why some of them have a wavy top edge
        and some didn't. depended on how the cloth was woven. >>

        That is certainly a possibility. I have tended to think the ones in the
        Manesse Codex might be a separate frill because of the distinct line between "cap"
        and "frill" shown in each example.

        Hmmm. Something else to ponder -- thank you!

        ~ Hedewigis.
      • SilverLoon2001@aol.com
        Thank
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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          << I posted some pictures from some German art from
          near the time era that show decorated fillets that appear to be
          cording. ... Elisabeth Hänsel >>

          Thank you for the additions, especially for "The Visitation." I had tried to
          get to New York to see it in person, but plans did not work out as well as I
          had hoped. Your picture is a much higher resolution than I had found before.
          Is the entire photo on-line?

          Your own first attempt really has the "stuffed" appearance of the original MS
          illuminations. Now I can see why the Communitas Monacensis added cording.
          What did you use?

          In service,
          ~ Hedewigis.
        • Emmie
          ... You bet! I found it at the Met website. (BTW, that is one of my favorite pieces. I love the trim on it.) ... Cotton cord/stuffing that is used for
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, SilverLoon2001@... wrote:
            >
            > Is the entire photo on-line?

            You bet! I found it at the Met website. (BTW, that is one of my
            favorite pieces. I love the trim on it.)

            > What did you use?

            Cotton cord/stuffing that is used for making those stuffed edges in
            pillows and such.... stuff into a linen tube. It was difficult to
            manipulate. This time I am trying a tubular plait-braided linen cord.

            YIS,

            Elisabeth
          • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
            MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST THANK YOU What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of felt? I am always unsure when trying to
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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              MODERATOR NOTE:
              PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
              THANK YOU

              What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of felt? I am always unsure when trying to replicate a picture as to what textile is actually being shown. And as you know, there is not always text to explain the lovely illustrations. Sometimes it seems like a choice between what would likely have been readily available and what might have been available to a person of perhaps a high status (read that, more money and access to imported goods) wearing it. I have come to a point where I may try several materials and simply wear the best replication, or all of them if they please me and look good.

              Elyn
            • Guenievre de Monmarche
              ... I haven t been following this thread until the felt thing came up, so I m not sure what time period you re thinking and this might be a bit late for you,
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                >
                > What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of
                > felt? I am always unsure when trying to replicate a picture as to what
                > textile is actually being shown. And as you know, there is not always
                > text to explain the lovely illustrations. Sometimes it seems like a
                > choice between what would likely have been readily available and what
                > might have been available to a person of perhaps a high status (read
                > that, more money and access to imported goods) wearing it. I have come
                > to a point where I may try several materials and simply wear the best
                > replication, or all of them if they please me and look good.
                >
                > Elyn

                I haven't been following this thread until the felt thing came up, so I'm
                not sure what time period you're thinking and this might be a bit late for
                you, but there is at least one 14th century extant felt hat that I know of -
                it was concealed in a church and is on exhibition in a little museum in
                England. Some details about it are found here:
                http://search.concealedgarments.org/results.jsp?view=detail&pos=1&id=1553

                So obviously felt was being used for hats, even if it can't be proven that
                it was used for the "pillbox" type hats.


                Guenièvre
              • Emmie
                ... of felt? I have not found any, yet. I am planning on getting in touch with a couple of German groups I found online. There are some sources that seem to
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "hawkhurstmanor@..."
                  <hawkhurstmanor@...> wrote:
                  > What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made
                  of felt?


                  I have not found any, yet. I am planning on getting in touch with a
                  couple of German groups I found online. There are some sources that
                  seem to be more readily available there (in Germany/Europe) than what
                  we have here. That gets a little annoying in research. There might
                  be in later period... the Germans and there interesting hats. Could
                  the "pork pie hat" been the start of a morph in the unique German hats
                  we see later on?

                  Elisabeth
                • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                  MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST CUT OUT THE PREVIOUS POST BEFORE SENDING YOUR MESSAGE TO THE GROUP THANK YOU Thank you....I appreciate the info very
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                    MODERATOR NOTE:
                    PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                    CUT OUT THE PREVIOUS POST BEFORE SENDING YOUR MESSAGE TO THE GROUP
                    THANK YOU

                    Thank you....I appreciate the info very much.
                    Elyn
                  • TudorLdy@aol.com
                    ... My lady, if I can offer you a gentle correction, the correct term is gauffered . A spelling variant frequently seen is goffered . A ruffled edge does
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                      >> "gopherred veils"

                      My lady, if I can offer you a gentle correction, the correct term is
                      'gauffered'. A spelling variant frequently seen is 'goffered'.

                      A ruffled edge does not frill itself (that I know of), but the crimping
                      is done by a hot gauffering iron. I do know this practice is applied
                      to ruffs, I do not know specifically if it is applied to the cap in
                      question, as this is somewhat earlier than my period, and I have not
                      examined the pictures being discussed.

                      However, a pillbox cap is *not difficult*. Unless one is interested in
                      doing millinery from the ground up (inasmuch as the original poster
                      stated that she has only intermediate sewing experience), consider that
                      fabric stores that have bridal departments frequently have buckram hat
                      forms. A pillbox is pretty basic, and not hard to find. For a first
                      attempt, no one would fault her for using a commercially made form as
                      the base, and concentrating more on the details of 'making it period'.

                      In service,
                      Elizabeth Blackdane
                    • Emmie
                      ... Actually, I am very interested in millinery from the ground up. Yes, my sewing skills are not the best, but I see it as an opportunity for
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, TudorLdy@... wrote:
                        > However, a pillbox cap is *not difficult*. Unless one is interested
                        >in doing millinery from the ground up (inasmuch as the original
                        >poster stated that she has only intermediate sewing experience),
                        >consider that abric stores that have bridal departments frequently
                        >have buckram hat forms.


                        Actually, I am very interested in millinery from the ground up. Yes,
                        my sewing skills are not the best, but I see it as an opportunity for
                        self-improvement : ) With that in mind I intend on using 2-3 layers
                        of a heavy linen in the place of buckram (a suggestion given from the
                        SCA_Milliners Yahoo Group.) Thank you for your suggestion though. I
                        will keep it in mind if I get too frustrated with the project.

                        YIS,

                        Elisabeth Hänsel
                      • Emmie
                        Whew! I finally finished my German Toque! It is not perfect, but it truly was a learning experience with making pill-box style hats. It is medium weight
                        Message 11 of 14 , Apr 27, 2006
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                          Whew! I finally finished my German Toque! It is not perfect, but
                          it truly was a learning experience with making pill-box style hats.
                          It is medium weight linen with a heavy duty (canvas type) linen
                          acting in the stead of buckram. It is hand sewn with linen thread.
                          The braid is a 6 piece braid with linen threads. (that was the most
                          tedious part.) The entire project was filled with firsts for me:
                          making a hat with a crown, medieval braiding and hand-sewing
                          anything that did not look like a 3 year old made it ; )

                          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=16
                          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=17
                          http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=18

                          I am pleased, but I know I have a ways to go. The picture shows the
                          seam in order to get any needed constructive comments.

                          YIS,

                          Elisabeth Hänsel
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