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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Need some sewing guidance... turret/pillbox hats

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  • Laura Morgan
    you know, I always suspected that those frilled hats were made the same way that gopherred veils are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge that
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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      you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made the same way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself. That might be why some of them have a wavy top edge and some didn't. depended on how the cloth was woven.

      What do y'all think?

      Laura





      Laura Morgan
      with Aubrey, Booga & Orion





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    • Emmie
      I tried this site back in Aug 05... using bable fish to translate. I was in my first month in the SCA and I was JUST learning to sew. I have it partially
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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        I tried this site back in Aug 05... using bable fish to translate. I
        was in my first month in the SCA and I was JUST learning to sew. I
        have it partially finished in my sewing trunk... my translation was a
        bit off... so it looked like a short chef's toque, lol. I posted what
        I consider my first successful attempt in my photo a;bum for the group
        (the pins are no longer in the hat though, lol.)

        YIS,

        Elisabeth Hänsel
      • Emmie
        ... the same way that gopherred veils are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself. IMHO, yes, with other culture like the
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Laura Morgan
          <valkerie1000@...> wrote:
          >
          > you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made
          the same way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be
          made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself.


          IMHO, yes, with other culture like the English and French that was
          true. THe hats found in the Codex though, I believe that was some
          typ of cording or a braid. Though I am curious of the wool ruffle
          Elyn mentioned. I posted some pictures from some German art from
          near the time era that show decorated fillets that appear to be
          cording. THere are also a few folios from the Manesse Codex, to
          include one that shows a gopherred veil. It looks very different
          than the "pork pie hats" do. Again, just MHO.

          YIS,

          Elisabeth Hänsel
        • SilverLoon2001@aol.com
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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            << you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made the same
            way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge
            that frilled by itself. That might be why some of them have a wavy top edge
            and some didn't. depended on how the cloth was woven. >>

            That is certainly a possibility. I have tended to think the ones in the
            Manesse Codex might be a separate frill because of the distinct line between "cap"
            and "frill" shown in each example.

            Hmmm. Something else to ponder -- thank you!

            ~ Hedewigis.
          • SilverLoon2001@aol.com
            Thank
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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              << I posted some pictures from some German art from
              near the time era that show decorated fillets that appear to be
              cording. ... Elisabeth Hänsel >>

              Thank you for the additions, especially for "The Visitation." I had tried to
              get to New York to see it in person, but plans did not work out as well as I
              had hoped. Your picture is a much higher resolution than I had found before.
              Is the entire photo on-line?

              Your own first attempt really has the "stuffed" appearance of the original MS
              illuminations. Now I can see why the Communitas Monacensis added cording.
              What did you use?

              In service,
              ~ Hedewigis.
            • Emmie
              ... You bet! I found it at the Met website. (BTW, that is one of my favorite pieces. I love the trim on it.) ... Cotton cord/stuffing that is used for
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, SilverLoon2001@... wrote:
                >
                > Is the entire photo on-line?

                You bet! I found it at the Met website. (BTW, that is one of my
                favorite pieces. I love the trim on it.)

                > What did you use?

                Cotton cord/stuffing that is used for making those stuffed edges in
                pillows and such.... stuff into a linen tube. It was difficult to
                manipulate. This time I am trying a tubular plait-braided linen cord.

                YIS,

                Elisabeth
              • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST THANK YOU What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of felt? I am always unsure when trying to
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                  MODERATOR NOTE:
                  PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                  THANK YOU

                  What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of felt? I am always unsure when trying to replicate a picture as to what textile is actually being shown. And as you know, there is not always text to explain the lovely illustrations. Sometimes it seems like a choice between what would likely have been readily available and what might have been available to a person of perhaps a high status (read that, more money and access to imported goods) wearing it. I have come to a point where I may try several materials and simply wear the best replication, or all of them if they please me and look good.

                  Elyn
                • Guenievre de Monmarche
                  ... I haven t been following this thread until the felt thing came up, so I m not sure what time period you re thinking and this might be a bit late for you,
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                    >
                    > What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of
                    > felt? I am always unsure when trying to replicate a picture as to what
                    > textile is actually being shown. And as you know, there is not always
                    > text to explain the lovely illustrations. Sometimes it seems like a
                    > choice between what would likely have been readily available and what
                    > might have been available to a person of perhaps a high status (read
                    > that, more money and access to imported goods) wearing it. I have come
                    > to a point where I may try several materials and simply wear the best
                    > replication, or all of them if they please me and look good.
                    >
                    > Elyn

                    I haven't been following this thread until the felt thing came up, so I'm
                    not sure what time period you're thinking and this might be a bit late for
                    you, but there is at least one 14th century extant felt hat that I know of -
                    it was concealed in a church and is on exhibition in a little museum in
                    England. Some details about it are found here:
                    http://search.concealedgarments.org/results.jsp?view=detail&pos=1&id=1553

                    So obviously felt was being used for hats, even if it can't be proven that
                    it was used for the "pillbox" type hats.


                    Guenièvre
                  • Emmie
                    ... of felt? I have not found any, yet. I am planning on getting in touch with a couple of German groups I found online. There are some sources that seem to
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "hawkhurstmanor@..."
                      <hawkhurstmanor@...> wrote:
                      > What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made
                      of felt?


                      I have not found any, yet. I am planning on getting in touch with a
                      couple of German groups I found online. There are some sources that
                      seem to be more readily available there (in Germany/Europe) than what
                      we have here. That gets a little annoying in research. There might
                      be in later period... the Germans and there interesting hats. Could
                      the "pork pie hat" been the start of a morph in the unique German hats
                      we see later on?

                      Elisabeth
                    • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                      MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST CUT OUT THE PREVIOUS POST BEFORE SENDING YOUR MESSAGE TO THE GROUP THANK YOU Thank you....I appreciate the info very
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                        MODERATOR NOTE:
                        PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                        CUT OUT THE PREVIOUS POST BEFORE SENDING YOUR MESSAGE TO THE GROUP
                        THANK YOU

                        Thank you....I appreciate the info very much.
                        Elyn
                      • TudorLdy@aol.com
                        ... My lady, if I can offer you a gentle correction, the correct term is gauffered . A spelling variant frequently seen is goffered . A ruffled edge does
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                          >> "gopherred veils"

                          My lady, if I can offer you a gentle correction, the correct term is
                          'gauffered'. A spelling variant frequently seen is 'goffered'.

                          A ruffled edge does not frill itself (that I know of), but the crimping
                          is done by a hot gauffering iron. I do know this practice is applied
                          to ruffs, I do not know specifically if it is applied to the cap in
                          question, as this is somewhat earlier than my period, and I have not
                          examined the pictures being discussed.

                          However, a pillbox cap is *not difficult*. Unless one is interested in
                          doing millinery from the ground up (inasmuch as the original poster
                          stated that she has only intermediate sewing experience), consider that
                          fabric stores that have bridal departments frequently have buckram hat
                          forms. A pillbox is pretty basic, and not hard to find. For a first
                          attempt, no one would fault her for using a commercially made form as
                          the base, and concentrating more on the details of 'making it period'.

                          In service,
                          Elizabeth Blackdane
                        • Emmie
                          ... Actually, I am very interested in millinery from the ground up. Yes, my sewing skills are not the best, but I see it as an opportunity for
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, TudorLdy@... wrote:
                            > However, a pillbox cap is *not difficult*. Unless one is interested
                            >in doing millinery from the ground up (inasmuch as the original
                            >poster stated that she has only intermediate sewing experience),
                            >consider that abric stores that have bridal departments frequently
                            >have buckram hat forms.


                            Actually, I am very interested in millinery from the ground up. Yes,
                            my sewing skills are not the best, but I see it as an opportunity for
                            self-improvement : ) With that in mind I intend on using 2-3 layers
                            of a heavy linen in the place of buckram (a suggestion given from the
                            SCA_Milliners Yahoo Group.) Thank you for your suggestion though. I
                            will keep it in mind if I get too frustrated with the project.

                            YIS,

                            Elisabeth Hänsel
                          • Emmie
                            Whew! I finally finished my German Toque! It is not perfect, but it truly was a learning experience with making pill-box style hats. It is medium weight
                            Message 13 of 14 , Apr 27, 2006
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                              Whew! I finally finished my German Toque! It is not perfect, but
                              it truly was a learning experience with making pill-box style hats.
                              It is medium weight linen with a heavy duty (canvas type) linen
                              acting in the stead of buckram. It is hand sewn with linen thread.
                              The braid is a 6 piece braid with linen threads. (that was the most
                              tedious part.) The entire project was filled with firsts for me:
                              making a hat with a crown, medieval braiding and hand-sewing
                              anything that did not look like a 3 year old made it ; )

                              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=16
                              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=17
                              http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=18

                              I am pleased, but I know I have a ways to go. The picture shows the
                              seam in order to get any needed constructive comments.

                              YIS,

                              Elisabeth Hänsel
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