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Re: Need some sewing guidance... turret/pillbox hats

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  • SilverLoon2001@aol.com
    The following page is in German, but has a nice depiction of the frilled hat shown in the Manesse Codex.
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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      The following page is in German, but has a nice depiction of the frilled hat
      shown in the Manesse Codex.

      http://www.monacensis.de/tipps/gewand/Anleitung_fuer_ein_Gebende_nach_der_Code
      x_Manesse/index.php?title=Anleitung_fuer_ein_Gebende_nach_der_Codex_Manesse

      I made mine using buckram as a stiffener. Tagboard worked for the initial
      form development -- it was much more guess than science. The edges of the
      flattened cap are curved, with the top edge several inches longer than the lower.

      I created my frill by folding a length of linen and then pleating it. This
      was as high as the cap, plus the frill height, and was sewn to the inside of the
      cap, providing additional stiffening as well as the frill along the upper
      edge. I did not add the cording shown in step 4 -- the linen was stiff enough on
      its own. More linen was sewn to the outside of the cap and to cover the
      inside, as shown in step 3. As mentioned by an earlier poster, I, too, made my c
      ap entirely by hand -- control is so much easier!

      My next one will use Vellum instead of buckram. Vellum will withstand spot
      cleaning, and has been documented by Isabel Ximenes de Gauçin to 13th century
      Spain as a toca frame. See her work at

      http://silverrylle.eastkingdom.org/research/index.html
      Pleated Spanish Toca

      I know, Spain and Switzerland are worlds apart, but I found the vellum to
      make sense for this application.


      In service,

      ~ Hedewigis Ockenfüß
      Shire of Caer Adamant
      (Delaware, USA)


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Laura Morgan
      you know, I always suspected that those frilled hats were made the same way that gopherred veils are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge that
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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        you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made the same way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself. That might be why some of them have a wavy top edge and some didn't. depended on how the cloth was woven.

        What do y'all think?

        Laura





        Laura Morgan
        with Aubrey, Booga & Orion





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Emmie
        I tried this site back in Aug 05... using bable fish to translate. I was in my first month in the SCA and I was JUST learning to sew. I have it partially
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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          I tried this site back in Aug 05... using bable fish to translate. I
          was in my first month in the SCA and I was JUST learning to sew. I
          have it partially finished in my sewing trunk... my translation was a
          bit off... so it looked like a short chef's toque, lol. I posted what
          I consider my first successful attempt in my photo a;bum for the group
          (the pins are no longer in the hat though, lol.)

          YIS,

          Elisabeth Hänsel
        • Emmie
          ... the same way that gopherred veils are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself. IMHO, yes, with other culture like the
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Laura Morgan
            <valkerie1000@...> wrote:
            >
            > you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made
            the same way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be
            made...with a woven edge that frilled by itself.


            IMHO, yes, with other culture like the English and French that was
            true. THe hats found in the Codex though, I believe that was some
            typ of cording or a braid. Though I am curious of the wool ruffle
            Elyn mentioned. I posted some pictures from some German art from
            near the time era that show decorated fillets that appear to be
            cording. THere are also a few folios from the Manesse Codex, to
            include one that shows a gopherred veil. It looks very different
            than the "pork pie hats" do. Again, just MHO.

            YIS,

            Elisabeth Hänsel
          • SilverLoon2001@aol.com
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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              << you know, I always suspected that those frilled "hats" were made the same
              way that "gopherred veils" are thought by some to be made...with a woven edge
              that frilled by itself. That might be why some of them have a wavy top edge
              and some didn't. depended on how the cloth was woven. >>

              That is certainly a possibility. I have tended to think the ones in the
              Manesse Codex might be a separate frill because of the distinct line between "cap"
              and "frill" shown in each example.

              Hmmm. Something else to ponder -- thank you!

              ~ Hedewigis.
            • SilverLoon2001@aol.com
              Thank
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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                << I posted some pictures from some German art from
                near the time era that show decorated fillets that appear to be
                cording. ... Elisabeth Hänsel >>

                Thank you for the additions, especially for "The Visitation." I had tried to
                get to New York to see it in person, but plans did not work out as well as I
                had hoped. Your picture is a much higher resolution than I had found before.
                Is the entire photo on-line?

                Your own first attempt really has the "stuffed" appearance of the original MS
                illuminations. Now I can see why the Communitas Monacensis added cording.
                What did you use?

                In service,
                ~ Hedewigis.
              • Emmie
                ... You bet! I found it at the Met website. (BTW, that is one of my favorite pieces. I love the trim on it.) ... Cotton cord/stuffing that is used for
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 4, 2006
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, SilverLoon2001@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Is the entire photo on-line?

                  You bet! I found it at the Met website. (BTW, that is one of my
                  favorite pieces. I love the trim on it.)

                  > What did you use?

                  Cotton cord/stuffing that is used for making those stuffed edges in
                  pillows and such.... stuff into a linen tube. It was difficult to
                  manipulate. This time I am trying a tubular plait-braided linen cord.

                  YIS,

                  Elisabeth
                • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                  MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST THANK YOU What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of felt? I am always unsure when trying to
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                    MODERATOR NOTE:
                    PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                    THANK YOU

                    What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of felt? I am always unsure when trying to replicate a picture as to what textile is actually being shown. And as you know, there is not always text to explain the lovely illustrations. Sometimes it seems like a choice between what would likely have been readily available and what might have been available to a person of perhaps a high status (read that, more money and access to imported goods) wearing it. I have come to a point where I may try several materials and simply wear the best replication, or all of them if they please me and look good.

                    Elyn
                  • Guenievre de Monmarche
                    ... I haven t been following this thread until the felt thing came up, so I m not sure what time period you re thinking and this might be a bit late for you,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                      >
                      > What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made of
                      > felt? I am always unsure when trying to replicate a picture as to what
                      > textile is actually being shown. And as you know, there is not always
                      > text to explain the lovely illustrations. Sometimes it seems like a
                      > choice between what would likely have been readily available and what
                      > might have been available to a person of perhaps a high status (read
                      > that, more money and access to imported goods) wearing it. I have come
                      > to a point where I may try several materials and simply wear the best
                      > replication, or all of them if they please me and look good.
                      >
                      > Elyn

                      I haven't been following this thread until the felt thing came up, so I'm
                      not sure what time period you're thinking and this might be a bit late for
                      you, but there is at least one 14th century extant felt hat that I know of -
                      it was concealed in a church and is on exhibition in a little museum in
                      England. Some details about it are found here:
                      http://search.concealedgarments.org/results.jsp?view=detail&pos=1&id=1553

                      So obviously felt was being used for hats, even if it can't be proven that
                      it was used for the "pillbox" type hats.


                      Guenièvre
                    • Emmie
                      ... of felt? I have not found any, yet. I am planning on getting in touch with a couple of German groups I found online. There are some sources that seem to
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "hawkhurstmanor@..."
                        <hawkhurstmanor@...> wrote:
                        > What evidence if any, is there of hats similar to this being made
                        of felt?


                        I have not found any, yet. I am planning on getting in touch with a
                        couple of German groups I found online. There are some sources that
                        seem to be more readily available there (in Germany/Europe) than what
                        we have here. That gets a little annoying in research. There might
                        be in later period... the Germans and there interesting hats. Could
                        the "pork pie hat" been the start of a morph in the unique German hats
                        we see later on?

                        Elisabeth
                      • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
                        MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST CUT OUT THE PREVIOUS POST BEFORE SENDING YOUR MESSAGE TO THE GROUP THANK YOU Thank you....I appreciate the info very
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                          MODERATOR NOTE:
                          PLEASE DO NOT TOP-POST
                          CUT OUT THE PREVIOUS POST BEFORE SENDING YOUR MESSAGE TO THE GROUP
                          THANK YOU

                          Thank you....I appreciate the info very much.
                          Elyn
                        • TudorLdy@aol.com
                          ... My lady, if I can offer you a gentle correction, the correct term is gauffered . A spelling variant frequently seen is goffered . A ruffled edge does
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                            >> "gopherred veils"

                            My lady, if I can offer you a gentle correction, the correct term is
                            'gauffered'. A spelling variant frequently seen is 'goffered'.

                            A ruffled edge does not frill itself (that I know of), but the crimping
                            is done by a hot gauffering iron. I do know this practice is applied
                            to ruffs, I do not know specifically if it is applied to the cap in
                            question, as this is somewhat earlier than my period, and I have not
                            examined the pictures being discussed.

                            However, a pillbox cap is *not difficult*. Unless one is interested in
                            doing millinery from the ground up (inasmuch as the original poster
                            stated that she has only intermediate sewing experience), consider that
                            fabric stores that have bridal departments frequently have buckram hat
                            forms. A pillbox is pretty basic, and not hard to find. For a first
                            attempt, no one would fault her for using a commercially made form as
                            the base, and concentrating more on the details of 'making it period'.

                            In service,
                            Elizabeth Blackdane
                          • Emmie
                            ... Actually, I am very interested in millinery from the ground up. Yes, my sewing skills are not the best, but I see it as an opportunity for
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 6, 2006
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, TudorLdy@... wrote:
                              > However, a pillbox cap is *not difficult*. Unless one is interested
                              >in doing millinery from the ground up (inasmuch as the original
                              >poster stated that she has only intermediate sewing experience),
                              >consider that abric stores that have bridal departments frequently
                              >have buckram hat forms.


                              Actually, I am very interested in millinery from the ground up. Yes,
                              my sewing skills are not the best, but I see it as an opportunity for
                              self-improvement : ) With that in mind I intend on using 2-3 layers
                              of a heavy linen in the place of buckram (a suggestion given from the
                              SCA_Milliners Yahoo Group.) Thank you for your suggestion though. I
                              will keep it in mind if I get too frustrated with the project.

                              YIS,

                              Elisabeth Hänsel
                            • Emmie
                              Whew! I finally finished my German Toque! It is not perfect, but it truly was a learning experience with making pill-box style hats. It is medium weight
                              Message 14 of 14 , Apr 27, 2006
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                                Whew! I finally finished my German Toque! It is not perfect, but
                                it truly was a learning experience with making pill-box style hats.
                                It is medium weight linen with a heavy duty (canvas type) linen
                                acting in the stead of buckram. It is hand sewn with linen thread.
                                The braid is a 6 piece braid with linen threads. (that was the most
                                tedious part.) The entire project was filled with firsts for me:
                                making a hat with a crown, medieval braiding and hand-sewing
                                anything that did not look like a 3 year old made it ; )

                                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=16
                                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=17
                                http://ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/photos/view/609a?b=18

                                I am pleased, but I know I have a ways to go. The picture shows the
                                seam in order to get any needed constructive comments.

                                YIS,

                                Elisabeth Hänsel
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