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"Woven" lace??

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  • Marybeth Lavrakas
    I happened across a description of a pageant in Norwich in the 1570s that included paintings of the various types of looms used to weave specialty fabrics in
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 2, 2006
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      I happened across a description of a pageant in
      Norwich in the 1570s that included paintings of the
      various types of looms used to weave specialty fabrics
      in the city, and one is for weaving lace. I have
      seperate documentary references for people weaving
      lace in the city, making needle lace, and making
      bobbin lace (most of whom were children, BTW).

      I'm not a lace person, but this is bugging me! What
      type of lace was woven on looms? Any extant examples
      online??


      Lady Kateryn Rous, CP
      House Broussard
      Windmasters Hill
      http://sca.livingpast.com
    • Tiffany Brown
      Could it refer to sprang, which can be lacelike, and must be done on a frame? Or even tatting and netting can be best done on frames at times I hear. If a
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 2, 2006
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        Could it refer to sprang, which can be lacelike, and must be done on a frame?
        Or even tatting and netting can be best done on frames at times I hear.

        If a translation (even from early modern english) was involved, I can
        see the distinction between frame and loom not being the same in other
        languages.

        Teffania

        On 2/3/06, Marybeth Lavrakas <katrous@...> wrote:
        > I happened across a description of a pageant in
        > Norwich in the 1570s that included paintings of the
        > various types of looms used to weave specialty fabrics
        > in the city, and one is for weaving lace. I have
        > seperate documentary references for people weaving
        > lace in the city, making needle lace, and making
        > bobbin lace (most of whom were children, BTW).
        >
        > I'm not a lace person, but this is bugging me! What
        > type of lace was woven on looms? Any extant examples
        > online??
        >
        >
        > Lady Kateryn Rous, CP
        > House Broussard
        > Windmasters Hill
        > http://sca.livingpast.com
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------
        > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Karen Hall
        ... Continuing with the translation idea - was the word lace the author s, or was it from the 1570s document? Making laces was a (from memory) 15th
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 2, 2006
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          > If a translation (even from early modern english) was involved, I can
          > see the distinction between frame and loom not being the same in other
          > languages.

          > On 2/3/06, Marybeth Lavrakas <katrous@...> wrote:
          >> I happened across a description of a pageant in
          >> Norwich in the 1570s that included paintings of the
          >> various types of looms used to weave specialty fabrics
          >> in the city, and one is for weaving lace. I have

          Continuing with the 'translation' idea - was the word 'lace' the author's,
          or was it from the 1570s document? 'Making laces' was a (from memory) 15th
          century term for what we now call fingerloop braiding. The 'lace' in
          question here might not be what we think of now, but a different king of
          fabric/fibre product.

          Just tossing an idea in,
          Alessandra
        • Tiffany Brown
          ... Yes, but there seems to be no european tradition of tools other than a beater for fingerloop braiding. There is a period japanesese tool (which I m still
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 2, 2006
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            On 2/3/06, Karen Hall <karenh@...> wrote:
            > Continuing with the 'translation' idea - was the word 'lace' the author's,
            > or was it from the 1570s document? 'Making laces' was a (from memory) 15th
            > century term for what we now call fingerloop braiding. The 'lace' in
            > question here might not be what we think of now, but a different king of
            > fabric/fibre product.

            Yes, but there seems to be no european tradition of tools other than a
            beater for fingerloop braiding. There is a period japanesese tool
            (which I'm still not sure qualifies as a loom)which will beat the warp
            for you, but in europe it seems to have been a tradition of using
            additional manpower instead.

            Tabletwoven or rigid heddle bands definately do use a loom, but I'm
            not aware of them beign called laces - more often "bands of gold".

            Teffania
          • KATROUS
            No confusion on the language used (loom), although there s no saying what the author really saw compared to how he decided to describe it. I don t think it s
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 4, 2006
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              No confusion on the language used (loom), although there's no saying
              what the author really saw compared to how he decided to describe it.

              I don't think it's lace in the sense of cording because everything
              included in that particular pageant was a luxury or new textile that
              Norwich was making huge money of (taffeta, bays, worsteds, lace...)
            • hawkhurstmanor@yahoo.com
              Could this be what my Aunts called hairpin lace? I learned to make it as a child, quite literally on one of their hair pins with sewing thread. It made a
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 6, 2006
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                Could this be what my Aunts called hairpin lace? I learned to make it as a child, quite literally on one of their hair pins with sewing thread. It made a pretty little edge that they sometimes continued to embellish with crochet. Later on my dad made me a couple more sizes so I could make wider "lace". Since then I have seen these wire frames being sold in shops and are labeled as "looms". Might this be what you are looking for?
                Best regards,
                Elyn
              • Catelli, Ann
                ... Crochet was invented sometime in the late eighteenth to early nineteenth centuries, probably as an outgrowth of tambour embroidery. Since hairpin lace is
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 7, 2006
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                  > Could this be what my Aunts called hairpin lace? I learned
                  > to make it as a child, quite literally on one of their hair
                  > pins with sewing thread. It made a pretty little edge that
                  > they sometimes continued to embellish with crochet.
                  > Elyn


                  Crochet was invented sometime in the late eighteenth to early nineteenth centuries, probably as an outgrowth of tambour embroidery.
                  Since hairpin lace is made initially by crochet & then attached to itself with more crochet, I tend to think that the woven lace was not of that sort.


                  Perhaps the warp thread were being manipulated while on the loom to form hemstitching & other openwork, which are normally done on the cloth with threads removed.
                  But that is wild speculation.

                  Ann in CT
                • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                  ... There are several kinds of open fabric woven on a loom. One of the simplest is leno or gauze weave. The warps are crossed over each other and held in
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 7, 2006
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                    >I happened across a description of a pageant in
                    >Norwich in the 1570s that included paintings of the
                    >various types of looms used to weave specialty fabrics
                    >in the city, and one is for weaving lace. I have
                    >seperate documentary references for people weaving
                    >lace in the city, making needle lace, and making
                    >bobbin lace (most of whom were children, BTW).
                    >
                    >I'm not a lace person, but this is bugging me! What
                    >type of lace was woven on looms? Any extant examples
                    >online??

                    There are several kinds of open fabric woven on a loom. One of the
                    simplest is "leno" or "gauze" weave. The warps are crossed over each
                    other and held in place by the weft. It's simple but time consuming
                    to do on a regular loom. A "Doup" attachment that automates the
                    reversals.
                    I don't have documentation, but think leno is very likely to be period.

                    http://www.fabrics.net/colpics/1001/photo2.jpg
                    http://www.santacruzhandweavers.org/anneblinks/pics/household/DW-1.jpg
                    http://courses.che.umn.edu/00dha2213-1f/image2/marqui.gif
                    http://courses.che.umn.edu/00dha2213-1f/texana2213/leno.html

                    http://www.bitwisegifts.com/glencoenc/library/doc4.htm
                    DOUP: A special kind of HEDDLE, used in conjunction with ordinary
                    HEDDLES on the HARNESSES of a LOOM to cross and uncross WARP
                    filaments (in both a horizontal and vertical plane) when WEAVING
                    cross-thread tissues, such as gauze weave or leno weave

                    Ranvaig
                  • Jane Stockton
                    Hi All, Just wondering if anyone knows where I might be able to get a copy of the following article? Arnold, Janet (1977). Elizabethan and Jacobean smocks and
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 9, 2006
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                      Hi All,

                      Just wondering if anyone knows where I might be able to get a copy of the
                      following article?

                      Arnold, Janet (1977). "Elizabethan and Jacobean smocks and shirts".
                      Waffen-und Kostumkunde; Zeitschrift der Gessellschadt fur Historiche Waffen
                      -und Kostumkunde (Vol 19, Issue 2).

                      I've tried inter-library loan, but they say they can't get it. Any chance
                      someone knows an institution where this is available?

                      Any help gratefully appreciated.

                      Cheers,
                      Jane
                    • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
                      I ve got it. Email me your address off list & I ll send it. Cheers, Margaret Hepburn ... of the ... shirts . ... Historiche Waffen ... chance
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 9, 2006
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                        I've got it. Email me your address off list & I'll send it.
                        Cheers,
                        Margaret Hepburn
                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Jane Stockton
                        <jane_stockton@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi All,
                        >
                        > Just wondering if anyone knows where I might be able to get a copy
                        of the
                        > following article?
                        >
                        > Arnold, Janet (1977). "Elizabethan and Jacobean smocks and
                        shirts".
                        > Waffen-und Kostumkunde; Zeitschrift der Gessellschadt fur
                        Historiche Waffen
                        > -und Kostumkunde (Vol 19, Issue 2).
                        >
                        > I've tried inter-library loan, but they say they can't get it. Any
                        chance
                        > someone knows an institution where this is available?
                        >
                        > Any help gratefully appreciated.
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Jane
                        >
                      • Susan B. Farmer
                        ... Realizing that you didn t offer to send it to *everybody* on the list ... If you are emailing out more than one copy, I d like a copy -- or even just the
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 10, 2006
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                          Quoting "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn" <malvoisine@...>:

                          > I've got it. Email me your address off list & I'll send it.
                          > Cheers,
                          > Margaret Hepburn

                          Realizing that you didn't offer to send it to *everybody* on the list
                          ...

                          If you are emailing out more than one copy, I'd like a copy -- or even
                          just the page numbers, and I'll get my own copy via ILL.

                          Thanks,
                          Jerusha
                          -----
                          Susan Farmer
                          sfarmer@...
                          University of Tennessee
                          Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
                          http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
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