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illumination for garb inspiration-Jewish lady of 1300 Spain

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  • willo
    Greetings all-- Has anyone else seen the Universe Publishing calendar for the Jewish year 5766 (2005 -2006) with images from the Prato Haggadah (Spain, c.
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 2, 2006
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      Greetings all--

      Has anyone else seen the Universe Publishing calendar for the Jewish year 5766 (2005
      -2006) with images from the Prato Haggadah (Spain, c. 1300)?

      I'm using the March image as inspiration for my next clothing project for myself. It is a
      seder scene (that's what Jesus' "last supper" was, if you need a mental image and have no
      idea what a Passover seder looks like!) with four adults and two children sitting at the
      table.

      What I love about the clothing visible in several of the images in the calendar is the
      obvious "transition" from loose tunics to more fitted garb. I've heard arguments so often
      about how/when this occured.

      Anyway, I'm about to contact the JTS (Jewish Theological Society, who owns the
      manuscript) to see if I can learn for sure whether/which of the 12 included images are
      from finished pages. (30 illuminations were finished, 59 were partially completed.)

      I've never seen clothing quite like this before, but it appears on 2 different images that
      people (men and women) are wearing tight white undersleeves (clearly visible) under
      looser, just-past-elbow-length sleeves with short (10 inch?) tippets. It is possible that
      both are unfinished pages as there is still a fair amount of "white" area that could be
      preperatory line drawings. Considering the more risque nature of Spanish Christian
      clothing of the era (compared to elsewhere in Europe), however, I wonder if this wasn't still
      modest enough clothing for Jewish people? (Laced gowns on Christain Spanish women of
      the 13th C. already showed even the sides of the camisa, not even just the sleeves.)

      The artist's lines on one garment really suggest fitted armscyes to me, too, though the
      tunics are generally still quite loose-fitting in appearance.

      Three other images from this manuscript show looser, belted/blousy tunics with tight/
      buttoned sleeves.

      I would love to hear others' knowledge, thoughts and opinions on this style, or if anyone
      has seen similar gowns in art with either white (camisa?) or colored (undergown?) sleeves
      showing below the elbow. I've seen similar (but blousier/looser) outfits on MEN in the
      Maciejowski Bible, and on both sexes (still looser) in the Manesse Codex and Cantigas.
      There appear to be a mix of white and colored undersleeves in those sources. I've never
      seen the short tippets combined with the tight undersleeves elsewhere, however.

      I would love to forego a 3rd layer of clothing in the summer and still be highly accurate...

      --Joya
      m.k.a. willo
    • willo
      Greetings all-- Has anyone else seen the Universe Publishing calendar for the Jewish year 5766 (2005 -2006) with images from the Prato Haggadah (Spain, c.
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 2, 2006
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        Greetings all--

        Has anyone else seen the Universe Publishing calendar for the Jewish year 5766 (2005
        -2006) with images from the Prato Haggadah (Spain, c. 1300)?

        I'm using the March image as inspiration for my next clothing project for myself. It is a
        seder scene (that's what Jesus' "last supper" was, if you need a mental image and have no
        idea what a Passover seder looks like!) with four adults and two children sitting at the
        table.

        What I love about the clothing visible in several of the images in the calendar is the
        obvious "transition" from loose tunics to more fitted garb. I've heard arguments so often
        about how/when this occured.

        Anyway, I'm about to contact the JTS (Jewish Theological Society, who owns the
        manuscript) to see if I can learn for sure whether/which of the 12 included images are
        from finished pages. (30 illuminations were finished, 59 were partially completed.)

        I've never seen clothing quite like this before, but it appears on 2 different images that
        people (men and women) are wearing tight white undersleeves (clearly visible) under
        looser, just-past-elbow-length sleeves with short (10 inch?) tippets. It is possible that
        both are unfinished pages as there is still a fair amount of "white" area that could be
        preperatory line drawings. Considering the more risque nature of Spanish Christian
        clothing of the era (compared to elsewhere in Europe), however, I wonder if this wasn't still
        modest enough clothing for Jewish people? (Laced gowns on Christain Spanish women of
        the 13th C. already showed even the sides of the camisa, not even just the sleeves.)

        The artist's lines on one garment really suggest fitted armscyes to me, too, though the
        tunics are generally still quite loose-fitting in appearance.

        Three other images from this manuscript show looser, belted/blousy tunics with tight/
        buttoned sleeves.

        I would love to hear others' knowledge, thoughts and opinions on this style, or if anyone
        has seen similar gowns in art with either white (camisa?) or colored (undergown?) sleeves
        showing below the elbow. I've seen similar (but blousier/looser) outfits on MEN in the
        Maciejowski Bible, and on both sexes (still looser) in the Manesse Codex and Cantigas.
        There appear to be a mix of white and colored undersleeves in those sources. I've never
        seen the short tippets combined with the tight undersleeves elsewhere, however.

        I would love to forego a 3rd layer of clothing in the summer and still be highly accurate...

        --Joya
        m.k.a. willo
      • dona_violante
        ... year 5766 (2005 ... The garb sounds nifty (naturally, since it s Spanish ;) - is there any way you can post the image to the Files section of the
        Message 3 of 4 , Feb 7, 2006
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          > Has anyone else seen the Universe Publishing calendar for the Jewish
          year 5766 (2005
          > -2006) with images from the Prato Haggadah (Spain, c. 1300)?

          <snip>

          The garb sounds nifty (naturally, since it's Spanish ;) - is there any
          way you can post the image to the Files section of the Group, or is it
          online anywhere?

          Thanks,
          Violante
          http://www.spanishpeacock.com/violante.htm
        • willo
          ... The JTS only has a few images online. http://www.jtsa.edu/library/conservation/prato/gallery.shtml You can see the visible tight, white sleeves (and short
          Message 4 of 4 , Feb 8, 2006
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "dona_violante" <dona_violante@...> wrote:
            > > Has anyone else seen the Universe Publishing calendar ... with images
            >> from the Prato Haggadah (Spain, c. 1300)?
            > <snip>

            > The garb sounds nifty (naturally, since it's Spanish ;) - is there any
            > way you can post the image to the Files section of the Group, or is it
            > online anywhere?

            The JTS only has a few images online.
            http://www.jtsa.edu/library/conservation/prato/gallery.shtml

            You can see the visible tight, white sleeves (and short tippets on oversleeves) I am so
            interested in on that page in folio 5V, although that image shows a guy. He does have a
            very clear, black line drawn on his inner calves which strongly suggests seamed hose to
            me, and is also interesting.

            They are planning a high-quality facsimile run of 250 copies, but I doubt that will be in my
            budget.

            I wouldn't be comfortable posting a (c) image online, but I will make a stab at sketching
            what I can see of the two women in the seder scene.

            Another fascinating thing in this image is the sheer veils on the women. Even today, many
            Jewish women keep their hair covered completely from view, and you can clearly see the
            hair through these veils. Coupled with the tight, white undersleeves, I'm guessing this
            hagaddah wasn't used by what we would today call the most Orthodox Jewish people.

            --Joya
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