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"Authentic"?

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  • Iain Odlin
    Greetings and a brief introduction, as per the charter. Iain Odlin from the cold snowy wastes of the mid-northern reaches of the East Kingdom here. I wish I
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 22, 2005
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      Greetings and a brief introduction, as per the charter.

      Iain Odlin from the cold snowy wastes of the mid-northern reaches of the
      East Kingdom here. I wish I could say it's a pleasure to meet you all.

      Mostly I just signed up so I could search the archives and check out
      the files and pictures -- perhaps glean a good idea or two -- but what
      I've been reading since I joined (four months or so) prompts me to break
      silence and ask a simple question:

      Why is this list called "Authentic SCA"?

      Most of what seems to go on here is people fighting tooth and nail to
      defend the very _inauthentic_ things they do in the name of modern
      convenience and passive-aggressively complaining about anyone who actually
      wants to do something period, like wear fur.

      If that's what floats people's boats, fine, but perhaps a name-change for
      this list is in order so those of us still naive enough to actually
      believe
      a list's content should at least vaguely match its description won't be
      subjected to your self-centered balls of thinly-veiled hatred?

      Back to silence,
      -Iain
    • wodeford
      ... Hello and welcome to the madhouse, Iain. Please be patient with the frailty and inconsistency of humanity. This list has, at most recent count, 1203
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 22, 2005
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Odlin" <i_odlin@h...> wrote:
        > Greetings and a brief introduction, as per the charter.
        Hello and welcome to the madhouse, Iain.

        Please be patient with the frailty and inconsistency of humanity. This
        list has, at most recent count, 1203 members. That many people are not
        going to think alike.

        Many people come to this list looking for the answer to a question.
        Frequently they are given useful information, only to decide that they
        can't pursue the "ideal" authentic result. They can't afford it, they
        don't have time or skill or inclination to do it, they don't have
        access to the necessary materials, etc. Or they just plain don't like
        the answer they got. Or they didn't receive approval for doing it
        "wrong" - and yes, people do turn up on this list looking for that.
        BTW, your definitions of "ideal," "authentic" and "wrong" WILL vary.

        As I said to Anne in an earlier post, it's up to her and the lady
        she's sewing for to decide what compromises they are willing to make
        in dressing for winter conditions in their kingdom. No one else can
        make that decision for them. No one else has the right.

        Jehanne de Wodeford, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
      • m d b
        ... change for ... actually ... won t be ... Pot meet kettle. Seriously, the description in the group conatins this at the end: We each want to achieve our
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 22, 2005
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          > If that's what floats people's boats, fine, but perhaps a name-
          change for
          > this list is in order so those of us still naive enough to
          actually
          > believe
          > a list's content should at least vaguely match its description
          won't be
          > subjected to your self-centered balls of thinly-veiled hatred?

          Pot meet kettle.

          Seriously, the description in the group conatins this at the end:

          "We each want to achieve our own level of to the best of our ability
          and encourage others to do so as well. We espouse the opinion that
          real life comes first."

          I do wish those who feel the need to comment upon some discussions
          that get off topic briefly would not then post an off topic comment
          without actually offering any real advice or help. I'd much rather
          them actually join a discussion if they have something to share.

          For example with the fur thing: maybe a post saying yes fur
          substitutes were used but it appears they were limited to certain
          cultures and certain times.
          Maybe a bit of discussion on who could afford what fur and also the
          prevailing attitudes towards fur would be nice. In a time when
          torture was considered just for certain crimes, bear baiting was a
          sport and lives could be cut short by simple infections, how much
          thought for the welfare of animals could be spared? There may well
          have been a few voices. I have heard Leonardo da Vinici was concerned
          in this regard, but I'd rather find some real research to back that
          up;)

          I for one would rather have all this understanding even if I cannot
          afford to fully line my surcoat in sable or ermine (I honestly don't
          know what the import laws in ragard to fur is for my country anyway)
          or carry around some symbol of my persona's faith. I don't share my
          persona's faith and I will not buy new coral beads simple to complete
          an outfit. Yes I will hunt for vintage and antique pieces, but I'll
          also look at period substitutes suitable to my chosen time and place
          (metal beads, wood, crystal.) If I can find them I will, if not I'll
          use glass (paste) substitutes.)

          The choice to substitute doesn't always mean ignorance. I will
          however endeavour to remember not everyone knows the what research I
          have actually done when replying.

          Willemyne van Nymegen
          http://glittersweet.com
        • Alexis
          ... This ... not ... they ... they ... like ... vary. ... For some of us Authenticity is an on-going process. As I make new garb, it gets closer to what was
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 22, 2005
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Odlin" <i_odlin@h...>
            wrote:
            > > Greetings and a brief introduction, as per the charter.
            > Hello and welcome to the madhouse, Iain.
            >
            > Please be patient with the frailty and inconsistency of humanity.
            This
            > list has, at most recent count, 1203 members. That many people are
            not
            > going to think alike.
            >
            > Many people come to this list looking for the answer to a question.
            > Frequently they are given useful information, only to decide that
            they
            > can't pursue the "ideal" authentic result. They can't afford it,
            they
            > don't have time or skill or inclination to do it, they don't have
            > access to the necessary materials, etc. Or they just plain don't
            like
            > the answer they got. Or they didn't receive approval for doing it
            > "wrong" - and yes, people do turn up on this list looking for that.
            > BTW, your definitions of "ideal," "authentic" and "wrong" WILL
            vary.
            >
            > As I said to Anne in an earlier post, it's up to her and the lady
            > she's sewing for to decide what compromises they are willing to make
            > in dressing for winter conditions in their kingdom. No one else can
            > make that decision for them. No one else has the right.
            >
            > Jehanne de Wodeford, Province of the Mists, West Kingdom
            >
            For some of us Authenticity is an on-going process. As I make new
            garb, it gets closer to what was authentic for my time/place.
            However, I have a few things that are strictly modern for medical
            reasons that everyone politely ignores, like glasses, orthopodic
            shoes, and a gluecose testing kit.

            Pls don't start the medical tangent. There are people w/ wool
            allergies and others w/ allergies to the chemicals used to
            commercially process the wool. Same goes for furs.

            Textiles is the area I really care about being authentic. I think
            there are others on the list if offered a choice between one complete
            authentic outfit and a set of authentic tools/supplies for their
            hobby would opt for the tools.

            When it comes to garb, I know I cheat and where and how. I am comfy,
            clothed, and since I am not entering the garments in competition, the
            use of a sewing machine is between me and the machine.

            You will have far more fun looking for the stuff done right than the
            stuff that needs work. At one event I spent a wonderful hour
            admiring a Viking comb and case that a lady was wearing. Her DL had
            made it for her, so it even had authentic karma.

            Yis,
            Cassandra
          • ketamina06
            ... reaches of the ... you all. ... out ... but what ... to break ... nail to ... modern ... who actually ... *0*0*SNIP*0*0* ... Pleased to meet you, Iain,
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 25, 2005
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Iain Odlin" <i_odlin@h...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Greetings and a brief introduction, as per the charter.
              >
              > Iain Odlin from the cold snowy wastes of the mid-northern
              reaches of the
              > East Kingdom here. I wish I could say it's a pleasure to meet
              you all.
              >
              > Mostly I just signed up so I could search the archives and check
              out
              > the files and pictures -- perhaps glean a good idea or two --
              but what
              > I've been reading since I joined (four months or so) prompts me
              to break
              > silence and ask a simple question:
              >
              > Why is this list called "Authentic SCA"?
              >
              > Most of what seems to go on here is people fighting tooth and
              nail to
              > defend the very _inauthentic_ things they do in the name of
              modern
              > convenience and passive-aggressively complaining about anyone
              who actually
              > wants to do something period, like wear fur.
              *0*0*SNIP*0*0*
              > Back to silence,
              > -Iain

              Pleased to meet you, Iain, despite the circumstances.

              I happen to agree with you. In the last few months especially, I've
              seen a lot of threads here that seem to aim far from what the list's
              name intends. Some do end up solving a problem, but in general there
              is a lot of argument that is avoidable. I went into lurk mode myself
              after this summer because of it.

              I love this list and have learned a lot from it. People are so
              amazingly creative in working around problems like wool allergies
              and other ailments that are better dealt with mundanely.

              But, the elitism, overly heated discussions, and (as you mentioned)
              the passive-aggressive approaches have soured me quite a lot. I
              stopped posting when a list member sent me a personal email over a
              disagreement. Using profanity as well as namecalling in the email, I
              felt this person was out of line (I did speak with the
              administrator) of course. However, I just didn't feel it was worth
              fretting over. I also don't visit as often, and I don't DARE ask a
              question.

              Having said all that, I DO understand why a lot of this happens. As
              our name implies, we creatively take things out of place and time to
              represent them as best we can. It's amazing, the things we do know
              about history, but even more amazing what we DON'T know and how MUCH
              we don't know. That, plus different personalities, viewpoints and
              standards makes for some pretty 'good' discussions.

              As I said, I've learned a lot and hope to learn more from this list.
              I could simply do without some of the truly unnecessary comments and
              attitudes.

              L. Keterlyn, who does love a juicy discussion that respects all
              involved.
            • Sharon L. Krossa
              ... As noted by others, this issue comes up routinely. And while I understand and sympathize with your frustration, I recommend reading the last great flare-up
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 27, 2005
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                At 4:01 PM -0500 12/22/05, Iain Odlin wrote:
                > Why is this list called "Authentic SCA"?
                >
                > Most of what seems to go on here is people fighting tooth and nail to
                > defend the very _inauthentic_ things they do in the name of modern
                > convenience and passive-aggressively complaining about anyone who actually
                > wants to do something period, like wear fur.
                >
                > If that's what floats people's boats, fine, but perhaps a name-change for
                > this list is in order so those of us still naive enough to actually
                >believe
                > a list's content should at least vaguely match its description won't be
                > subjected to your self-centered balls of thinly-veiled hatred?

                As noted by others, this issue comes up routinely. And while I
                understand and sympathize with your frustration, I recommend reading
                the last great flare-up that occurred in late July (ending in early
                August) of this year, especially (but not limited to) the
                "Authenticity" thread started by the post of another new member like
                you (posted 27 Jul 2005) at
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/message/51234>. Though
                there was a lot of disagreement, in my opinion you'll find over the
                course of that thread a good analysis and discussion of why the same
                behaviors and debates found more generally are also not infrequently
                found on a list dedicated to authenticity, even though one might
                think it would be free from such strife.

                Also read the moderator's post "Conversation closed" (posted Wed, 3
                Aug 2005) at
                <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/message/51489>, which
                ended the "Need" thread, and which post laid out the list rules and,
                you will be happy to hear, made it quite clear that yes, this list
                really is about authenticity. List members each bear the
                responsibility for making their own choices (for their own reasons)
                about how authentic to be in anything they choose to re-create -- and
                whatever they choose is okay if they are okay with it personally --
                but they should not be offended and especially shall not whine if
                others discuss what would be more authentic, or indicate that they
                themselves would choose some more authentic option.

                Periodically the group needs to be reminded of the list's purpose and
                rules but it would be really nice if this time we could do that --
                and get back to actually discussing how to be more authentic again --
                without the well-worn debate and hurt feelings. (Which comment is not
                directed at Iain, who hasn't seen it all before and so doesn't know
                the standard course of events a post such as his tends to provoke --
                which are already manifesting themselves even as I write this -- but
                rather the rest of us. Let's skip right to the end this time -- that
                is, the part where the list moderator officially ends debate, posts
                the rules, and tells us all to behave.)

                In any case, please do note that, all other comments and suggestions
                aside, posts about what was done in period and how this might be
                re-created are being made, and one can learn a lot about how to be
                more authentic reading this list, as well as find support from others
                for trying to be more authentic in ones own choices -- and in my
                experience that's actually more common here than most other forums.

                Effrick
                --
                Sharon Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                Resources for Scottish history, names, clothing, language & more:
                Medieval Scotland - http://MedievalScotland.org/
              • Laura Morgan
                I just wanted to point out as the author of this post, that although all the replies to the post talk about glasses, my post was actually spawned by someone
                Message 7 of 14 , Dec 28, 2005
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                  I just wanted to point out as the author of this post, that although all the replies to the post talk about glasses, my post was actually spawned by someone recommending a radio flyer wagon for toting chidren around at events. I was not actually referring to glasses...people were just so sensitive about their wearing of glasses that they jumped to the wrong conclusion as to the particular straw that broke my back.

                  But there were alot of (I think) good conclusions that came from the conversation. insights into human nature and insecurity...

                  Laura

                  "Sharon L. Krossa" <skrossa-ml@...> wrote:

                  "Authenticity" thread started by the post of another new member like
                  you (posted 27 Jul 2005) at
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/message/51234>.

                  Laura Morgan
                  with Aubrey & Booga





                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • gedney@OPTONLINE.NET
                  ... Don t worry about it. I think a lot of people were posting emotionally, as that is a hot button issue with most of us (else why are we here, eh?). There
                  Message 8 of 14 , Dec 28, 2005
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                    > I just wanted to point out as the author of this post, that
                    > although all the replies to the post talk about glasses, my post
                    > was actually spawned by someone recommending a radio flyer wagon
                    > for toting chidren around at events. I was not actually referring
                    > to glasses...people were just so sensitive about their wearing of
                    > glasses that they jumped to the wrong conclusion as to the
                    > particular straw that broke my back.

                    Don't worry about it.
                    I think a lot of people were posting emotionally, as that is a "hot
                    button issue" with most of us (else why are we here, eh?).
                    There were a number of people, myself included, who jumped into
                    that fray feet first, without realizing that their own mouths awated
                    the landing of their wandering soles.

                    > But there were alot of (I think) good conclusions that came
                    > from the conversation. insights into human nature and insecurity...

                    Yes.
                    More than anything, I think it highlighted how we tend to read
                    intentions into each other's text that comes more from the ferment
                    of our own insecurities than is the authors intent.

                    I think that is the main lesson we need to remind ourselves of,
                    when this topic comes up (as it has done, and will do).


                    That's the lesson _I_ came away with, at any rate.
                    I now try to remind myself that plain text emails are a p*ss-poor
                    medium for reading others' subtextual conversations, and ideal
                    for crafting imaginary ones that in reality mirror our own subtexts.
                    I now try to remind myself to think twice before being offended.
                    I now try to remind myself to use Occam's Razor in all
                    conversations.
                    I sometimes fail. But at least I try.

                    I get a lot less huffy on the net these days as a result, and I am
                    happier about it.


                    Capt Elias
                    Dragonship Haven, East
                    (Stratford, CT, USA)

                    -Renaissance Geek of the Cyber Seas

                    - Help! I am being pecked to death by the Ducks of Dilletanteism!
                    There are SO damn many more things I want to try in the SCA
                    than I can possibly have time for. It's killing me!!!

                    -------------------------------------------------------------
                    Upon the hempen tackle ship-boys climbing;
                    Hear the shrill whistle which doth order give
                    To sounds confused; behold the threaden sails,
                    Borne with the invisible and creeping wind,
                    Draw the huge bottoms through the furrow'd sea,
                    Breasting the lofty surge: O, do but think
                    You stand upon the ravage and behold
                    A city on the inconstant billows dancing;
                    For so appears this fleet majestical,
                    Holding due course to Harfleur.
                    - Shakespeare - Henry V, Act III, Prologue
                  • Jessica
                    This is one area in which I would love more information. When and where did glasses start to be worn, and when did they become more commonplace? Not only
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 28, 2005
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                      This is one area in which I would love more information. When and where did
                      glasses start to be worn, and when did they become more commonplace? Not
                      only that, but what do those of us who are optically challenged do with or
                      without our glasses at events? ;-)



                      Findabhair



                      From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
                      On Behalf Of Laura Morgan



                      I just wanted to point out as the author of this post, that although all the
                      replies to the post talk about glasses, my post was actually spawned by
                      someone recommending a radio flyer wagon for toting chidren around at
                      events. I was not actually referring to glasses...people were just so
                      sensitive about their wearing of glasses that they jumped to the wrong
                      conclusion as to the particular straw that broke my back.





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • wodeford
                      ... where did ... Not ... with or ... It s nearly January, it must be time to discuss glasses again. Please feel free to search the archives as this is yet
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 28, 2005
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                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica" <noinini@t...> wrote:
                        >
                        > This is one area in which I would love more information. When and
                        where did
                        > glasses start to be worn, and when did they become more commonplace?
                        Not
                        > only that, but what do those of us who are optically challenged do
                        with or
                        > without our glasses at events? ;-)

                        It's nearly January, it must be time to discuss glasses again.

                        Please feel free to search the archives as this is yet another topic
                        that gets repeated a lot.

                        http://amos.indiana.edu/library/scripts/eyeglasses.html
                        http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/bleyeglass.htm
                        http://www.teagleoptometry.com/history.htm
                        http://jas-townsend.com/index.php?cPath=7&osCsid=e0cb8b8212e30527e5f14f963079aa6c

                        Short answer: what the optically challenged do at events is their
                        personal business. Some are willing to experience a blurry world in
                        the interest of authenticity, some are not. Only you can decide what
                        is appropriate/authentic/safe for you.

                        Last year my Japanese alter ego went out after dark at the Estrella
                        War in a veiled hat. It was an interesting experiment in coping with
                        limited visibility within the parameters of a persona's cultural
                        requirements (modesty/anonymity). It was also a good thing I had an
                        escort!

                        I've never worn glasses, however, I recently realized that as a day
                        wears on, it's harder for me to switch from distant objects to fine
                        print at close range in terms of focus. I've noticed a tendency to
                        thread needles at arm's length. It's more noticeable late in the day
                        or in the evening when I'm tired. Kind of interesting from the
                        standpoint of my adaptation to it, but I probably should break down
                        and have an exam.

                        Tuppenceworth,
                        Jehanne de Wodeford, Province of the Mists
                        West Kingdom
                      • J. May
                        There are a few places that will put your modern lenses into late period glasses. They are the kind that have no bows and pinch over your nose. The thing about
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 28, 2005
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                          There are a few places that will put your modern lenses into late period
                          glasses. They are the kind that have no bows and pinch over your nose.

                          The thing about people who wear glasses is that most of us would be dead by
                          now. :) Natural selection has a way to cure many ills. The rate of
                          near-sightedness is increasing rapidly in the US, iirc. We are not even
                          hindered socially (as in, who is this person 4 feet from me that I don't
                          extend a social greeting to) so we get farther in life-- and have a greater
                          chance of having children.

                          Samia
                        • NINacide@aol.com
                          learn more about leaded glass crystal, that is the key to lens technology. Also, most people ignore the glasses, but others get contact lenses just because
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 28, 2005
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                            learn more about leaded glass crystal, that is the key to lens technology.
                            Also, most people ignore the glasses, but others get contact lenses just
                            because it makes them look more period.

                            Mikhail, optically challenged like many other Scadians.


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Joannah Hansen
                            ... Another thing to keep in mind, IMO, is that it is veeeerrrryyy easy for what is being said in text to *sound* critical and curt, even if the sender isn t
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jan 2, 2006
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                              >Yes.
                              >More than anything, I think it highlighted how we tend to read
                              >intentions into each other's text that comes more from the ferment
                              >of our own insecurities than is the authors intent.
                              >
                              >I think that is the main lesson we need to remind ourselves of,
                              >when this topic comes up (as it has done, and will do).
                              >
                              >That's the lesson _I_ came away with, at any rate.
                              >I now try to remind myself that plain text emails are a p*ss-poor
                              >medium for reading others' subtextual conversations, and ideal
                              >for crafting imaginary ones that in reality mirror our own subtexts.
                              >I now try to remind myself to think twice before being offended.
                              >I now try to remind myself to use Occam's Razor in all
                              >conversations.
                              >I sometimes fail. But at least I try.
                              >
                              >I get a lot less huffy on the net these days as a result, and I am
                              >happier about it.
                              >
                              >Capt Elias

                              Another thing to keep in mind, IMO, is that it is veeeerrrryyy easy for what is being 'said' in text to *sound* critical and curt, even if the sender isn't trying to be so.

                              I am aware, myself, that most of my posts 'sound' very formal, and perhaps a bit cold, even, as I *cannot* bring myself to _not_ 'talk' correctly. ( If that makes sense? )

                              I guess that's why emoticons were invented! :-)

                              My 2cents worth.

                              Joannah

                              _____________________________________________________________
                              Sluggy.Net: The Sluggy Freelance Community!
                            • Marc Carlson
                              ... Spectacles go back at least as far as the 1280s, but these were just magnification lenses to correct for far-sightedness and presbyopia. Those of us with
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jan 2, 2006
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Jessica" <noinini@t...> wrote:
                                > This is one area in which I would love more information. When and
                                > where did glasses start to be worn, and when did they become more
                                > commonplace? Not only that, but what do those of us who are
                                > optically challenged do with or without our glasses at events? ;-)

                                Spectacles go back at least as far as the 1280s, but these were just
                                magnification lenses to correct for far-sightedness and presbyopia.
                                Those of us with near-sightedness only started getting correction in
                                the late 1500s/early 1600s.

                                When did they become common is a different question - and one that's
                                harder to answer. When I was a kid, people with glasses were still in
                                the extreme minority since they were so blinking expensive (hence
                                silly rules/sayings like "never hit a kid with glasses" and "boys
                                don't make passes at girls who wear glasses"). So I would say that
                                well into the 20th century there were people who had imperfect vision
                                who weren't wearing glasses.

                                What do I do with my glasses at events? I wear them or I don't :)

                                I have a pair of the fake bone folding glasses with my prescription
                                (which is of course inaccurate to the frames style) in them, but it's
                                not like they were designed to be worn all the time, and honesly,
                                switching back and forth between them, and having to make sure they
                                are set right to get the lenses angled correctly is a real pain, so
                                they tend to stay at home. I have a pair of frames for a later era of
                                glasses (meant to be worn with my 18th century stuff) and recently
                                went to get an estimate for having lenses for them made. Glass is
                                still expensive (and the request confused the lens shop a little, so
                                those will have to wait.

                                Marc/Diarmaid
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