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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Colors?

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  • kittencat3@aol.com
    In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time, ranvaig@columbus.rr.com writes: Note their disclaimer: Our dyes don t actually use these
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 31, 2005
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      In a message dated 10/31/2005 9:04:42 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      ranvaig@... writes:
      Note their disclaimer: Our dyes don't actually use these dyestuffs
      and mordants...Instead, our professional dyers match modern, safe
      dyes to hand-dyed samples that were created with the materials listed.

      Those colors aren't that good. No good blues, yellows, orange,
      green or brown.
      Not to mention that tin isn't period, and the best lavender on linen comes
      from mordanting linen with blue vitriol and then using a cochineal dyebath.

      Sarah Davies


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • lilinah@earthlink.net
      ... For starters, the question is really too vague. First, our period is a minimum of one thousand years long - 600 through 1600 CE - things just weren t the
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 1, 2005
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        --- Park McKellop <squire009@y...> wrote:
        > Is there a website that shows colors and hues available on cloth
        >for our period?

        For starters, the question is really too vague. First, "our period"
        is a minimum of one thousand years long - 600 through 1600 CE -
        things just weren't the same everywhere in all that time. Next, there
        are lots of technological changes in that time period and changes in
        available trade goods - but what was used varies over time and from
        place to place. Third, we cover a great deal of the world - Europe,
        North Africa, Southwest Asia (aka Middle East), South Asia, Central
        Asia, East Asia - and different dyes are used in different places.

        So, I have a question for you, Park: What time period and what
        geographical region or culture are you looking for?

        Second, oddly, most responses have been to pages on *modern* natural
        or chemical dyeing and not to pages that actually discuss and display
        dyes and mordants that would have been used before 1601.

        I've got plenty of modern natural dye books and the range of colors
        is pretty amazing... both because the dye materials illustrated
        originate all over the world and because mordants and techniques are
        used that were not used within SCA period.

        There are modern natural dye methods that mix various kinds of plant
        matter or dye baths - or use intense concentrated natural dye
        tinctures. But as far as i can tell none of these methods is
        particulalry "period".

        As far as i can tell, linen (and cotton which is period for my
        persona) were not dyed all that much, because vegetal fibers do not
        take dyes as easily as animal fibers (such as wool and silk). Linen
        and cotton are easily dyed with woad (Europe) and indigo (Middle and
        Near East, and late Europe). There is a complex dye method called
        "Turkey red" used in the Near and Middle East to dye vegetable fiber
        with madder - makes a great intense warm red, but takes weeks to get
        there. I have seen (but can no longer find) a photo of a large piece
        of linen from "Coptic" Egypt dyed dark red-brown madder red with
        tie-dyed borders of intense yellow - i would assume this was weld,
        but i don't know for certain. Otherwise, neither linen nor cotton dye
        easily and while they can be stained, this generally washes to a
        faint pastel.

        Wool and silk take most dyes well, although one often needs more dye
        material to dye silk. The most common mordant was alum - which was
        often an important trade item. Tannin is another mordant, but tends
        to add a pale warm brown to the color. Iron is another, which saddens
        the color, greys it. Copper is another - possibly just by dyeing in a
        copper pot - it adds a greenish tinge and may cause the fibers to
        deteriorate.

        While we are used to mixing dyes, this was not common practice. I'm
        not claiming it was never done, but overdyeing is the more typical
        way of getting good colors that cannot be gotten from a single dye.

        For example, while we use all sorts of dyes to make green, many are
        weak or fade or wash out quickly. Typically green was achieved by
        dyeing cloth yellow with a good strong yellow dye (and many plant
        yellows are weak or faint, generally specific yellow dyes known to be
        strong were used), then dipping in a woad or indigo bath until the
        desired green is achieved.

        So, when Park is more specific, perhaps i can find some resources
        that are actually relevant.
        --
        Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
        the persona formerly known as Anahita
      • Dana Darr
        ... listed. ... Not to mention that tin isn t period, The disclaimer does not imply that tin is period, it states that they are using dyes and mordants that
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 2, 2005
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          > ranvaig@c... writes:
          > Note their disclaimer: Our dyes don't actually use these dyestuffs
          > and mordants...Instead, our professional dyers match modern, safe
          > dyes to hand-dyed samples that were created with the materials
          listed.
          >
          > Those colors aren't that good. No good blues, yellows, orange,
          > green or brown.
          >


          Not to mention that tin isn't period,

          The disclaimer does not imply that tin is period, it states that they
          are using dyes and mordants that are not toxic or otherwise harmful,
          and a lot of period(s) used dyes and mordants that are dangerous to
          your health.

          Just my 2 ducats - I'm a stickler for accuracy...AND SAFETY!!

          Orestrina



          and the best lavender on linen comes
          > from mordanting linen with blue vitriol and then using a cochineal
          dyebath.
          >
          > Sarah Davies
        • cathal@mindspring.com
          Not to mention that tin isn t period, Well, there go the revenues from the Duchy of Cornwall...;-{ I m sure the rake in off flotsam and jetsam will make up for
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 2, 2005
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            Not to mention that tin isn't period,


            Well, there go the revenues from the Duchy of Cornwall...;-{
            I'm sure the rake in off flotsam and jetsam will make up for it though.

            I presume the context of the statement is in the matter the dyers art?
            Just out of curiosity, how is tin used toward that product?

            Cathal.
          • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
            Okay, if I m reading this correctly, linen can be died with woad or indigo for a fast dark blue - the color(s) of blue jeans, n est-ce pas? And green would
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 2, 2005
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              Okay, if I'm reading this correctly, linen can be died
              with woad or indigo for a fast dark blue - the
              color(s) of blue jeans, n'est-ce pas? And green would
              most often be done by overdying a yellow with woad
              (rather than indigo, as I am interested in 13th cent
              Gwynnedd). Is weld fast on linen, or does it wash out
              quickly? Or is there another way to get a good
              permanent yellow on linen? I'm basically going for a
              forest green shade...would it work, or would Gwervyl
              have to redye it every time it was washed? (or end up
              with a bluer green after every laundering...)

              I do seem to recall a mention in the Mabinogion of
              green towels, and I would expect towels to be linen,
              and dyed with dyes that would not come off on one's
              hands....but it could be fantasy. Or ambiguous, since
              I don't know if the original was "gwyrdd" which is
              definitely green, or "glas" which also translates blue
              or grey.

              So what say the experts? Could Gwervyl have had a
              dark green linen gown?

              Thanks for any information.

              Andrea
              kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt




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            • Adele de Maisieres
              ... ... OK, I m not overly up on dyestuffs, but I ll answer a couple of unasked peripheral questions. 1. There s about stuff-all evidence for linen in
              Message 6 of 16 , Nov 2, 2005
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                Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:

                >Okay, if I'm reading this correctly, linen can be died
                >with woad or indigo for a fast dark blue - the
                >color(s) of blue jeans, n'est-ce pas? And green would
                >most often be done by overdying a yellow with woad
                >(rather than indigo, as I am interested in 13th cent
                >Gwynnedd). Is weld fast on linen, or does it wash out
                >quickly? Or is there another way to get a good
                >permanent yellow on linen? I'm basically going for a
                >forest green shade...would it work, or would Gwervyl
                >have to redye it every time it was washed? (or end up
                >with a bluer green after every laundering...)
                >
                >
                <snip>

                >So what say the experts? Could Gwervyl have had a
                >dark green linen gown?
                >

                OK, I'm not overly up on dyestuffs, but I'll answer a couple of unasked
                peripheral questions.
                1. There's about stuff-all evidence for linen in outerwear. That's not
                to say that I think you shouldn't use it-- everyone has to make their
                own decisions about these things and many people really enjoy wearing
                linen clothes. But I get the impression you're interested in these
                things, so if you haven't already bought the fabric, I would suggest
                wool rather than linen. (Also, I believe that many dyes are more fast
                on wool than on linen).
                2. The ideal frequency for washing your outerwear is about once a
                never. If it's not absolutely revolting, you can spot clean, air,
                brush, and never really launder, so some fugitiveness may not have been
                a big issue for period dyers and wearers.

                --
                Adele de Maisieres

                -----------------------------
                Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                -Georgeus Gershwinus
                -----------------------------
              • kittencat3@aol.com
                Yes, she certainly could have had a dark green gown. Weld is fast on linen, but the linen must be properly mordanted, and the color wouldn t necessary be a
                Message 7 of 16 , Nov 2, 2005
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                  Yes, she certainly could have had a dark green gown. Weld is fast on linen,
                  but the linen must be properly mordanted, and the color wouldn't necessary be
                  a very dark green. Truly dark shades with natural dyes are best obtained on
                  protein-based fibers like wool and silk.

                  Sarah Davies


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kamala / Kathy
                  ... Pictures speak louder than words. Here is a link that was posted on the SCA_NaturalDyes list last month;
                  Message 8 of 16 , Nov 2, 2005
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                    >
                    > So what say the experts? Could Gwervyl have had a
                    > dark green linen gown?
                    >
                    > Thanks for any information.
                    >
                    > Andrea
                    > kitscaa Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt

                    Pictures speak louder than words. Here is a link that was posted on the SCA_NaturalDyes list
                    last month;

                    http://photobucket.com/albums/y252/ChristinaKrupp/Dyes%20on%20Linen/

                    The darkness of the weld and madder this dyer achieved would lead me to say yes to dark
                    green on linen.

                    Kamala
                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                    ... The poster means that tin as a mordant is not period. When i was first doing natural dyeing, it was the very early 1970s, and the College of Farts and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Nov 3, 2005
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                      Cathal wrote:
                      > > Not to mention that tin isn't period,
                      >
                      >Well, there go the revenues from the Duchy of Cornwall...;-{
                      >I'm sure the rake in off flotsam and jetsam will make up for it though.
                      >
                      >I presume the context of the statement is in the matter the dyers art?
                      >Just out of curiosity, how is tin used toward that product?

                      The poster means that tin as a mordant is not period.

                      When i was first doing natural dyeing, it was the very early 1970s,
                      and the College of Farts and Laughs, i mean, Arts and Crafts, in
                      Oakland CA. Besides alum, iron, and tannin, we used tin and chrome as
                      mordants. Tin and chrome are both NOT good to rinse down the drain,
                      and not so good for the dyer, either.

                      --
                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
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