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Re: belts

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  • Marc Carlson
    ... Since I didn t suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not really something I can speak to. ... Again, nothing I can speak to but you do seem to
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...> wrote:
      > If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty
      > naked and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set of
      > clothing!

      Since I didn't suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not
      really something I can speak to.

      > This would also remove ALL paintings and illuminations as reference
      > sources, because we cannot validate actual garment from artistic
      > license. This would also invalidate written techniques, as we
      > cannot confirm the writer actually did/witnessed the technique.

      Again, nothing I can speak to but you do seem to be making the best
      the enemy of the good, which, while not a traditional logical fallacy,
      ought to be (in my opinion).

      > I wholeheartly agree of using archeological means whenever
      > possible, but limited interpretation is essential since we cannot
      > excavate an entire culture.

      I doubt you've ever heard me suggest that archaeology is the only
      available source material, I certainly have no problems with using
      other sources of information.

      However, the statement "well they had this similar thing, why couldn't
      they have had that" is not basing doing something on some other
      source, it's basing doing something on speculation.

      For example, chairs. I have heard the argument given "that well we
      know they knew how to make chairs with a back, so I'm going to use a
      chair with a back", when the fact is that chairs with backs were not
      common until relatively recently. This is because chairs had an
      ideotechnic function that trumped simply being able to make them. The
      person with the chair was the socially superior/suthoritative person
      in the room/household/college/meeting/whathave you. That's why
      committees today have "Chairmen".

      The fact that they *could* do it doesn't alter the fact that they
      *didn't* do it.

      Marc/Diarmaid
    • sismith42
      ... of ... Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to answer the question of did they weave belts or not? , well:
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h
        ...> wrote:
        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...>
        wrote:
        > > If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty
        > > naked and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set
        of
        > > clothing!
        >
        > Since I didn't suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not
        > really something I can speak to.

        Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to answer
        the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:

        http://www.guntram.co.za/tabletweaving/docs/belt2003/belt2003.
        htm#AppendixB

        http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/belts/belts.html

        (both found on page one a Google search for medieval woven belt...)

        Stephanie
      • Marc Carlson
        ... Shhh! I m trying to make a point :) BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I know I ve seen a picture of one that s a plan
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...> wrote:
          > ...Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to
          > answer the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:...

          Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)

          BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I
          know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven band
          that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.

          Marc/Diarmaid
        • Amy Heilveil
          ... If you re hallucinating, so am I because I know exactly what you re talking about.... now, after work, I ll have to pull the book off of the shelf before I
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
            >
            >
            > BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I
            > know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven band
            > that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.


            If you're hallucinating, so am I because I know exactly what you're talking
            about.... now, after work, I'll have to pull the book off of the shelf
            before I head to an event for the weekend.
            Smiles,
            Despina de la darned people plant images in your head when you need to pack


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Cynthia J Ley
            ... Pg 35: Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads of silk, linen or
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
              > BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories?
              > I
              > know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven
              > band
              > that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.
              >
              > Marc/Diarmaid

              Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or were
              woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads of silk,
              linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing' style you
              refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.

              Arlys
            • Marc Carlson
              ... Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources) Marc/Diarmaid (I m currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that I *know* is in this
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
                > Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or
                > were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads
                > of silk, linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing'
                > style you refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.

                Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources)

                Marc/Diarmaid
                (I'm currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that
                I *know* is in this stupid book, but it doesn't want to give it up...)
              • Tiffany Brown
                Just a quick note - it s after my bedtime. Tabletweaving makes very versatile and tough belts in a technique that is easy to add elaboration (during production
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
                  Just a quick note - it's after my bedtime.

                  Tabletweaving makes very versatile and tough belts in a technique that
                  is easy to add elaboration (during production or after) too. I
                  suspect this is what makes them very popular. I think I can find half
                  a dozen extant examples in my tiny reference library. I find even a
                  simple tabletwoven belt far suprerior to any cloth belt, especially
                  for stiffness and grip to the garment underneath. Generally silk is
                  used (ordinary grade wool is not very suitable) some linen, a handful
                  wool - most reflect rich folk easily able to afford silk.

                  I've seen a few 12th french scupltures (I don't look much at other
                  periods) and a few manuscript drawings that are a bit more vaugue,
                  that look to be plaited rope belts.

                  The priest's ceremonial belt - cingulum was often preserved, so we
                  have lots of extant ones, often very heavily decorated. A number are
                  made from cloth, heavily embroidered. I think all the ones I've seen
                  were silk fabric (when you can afford it get the best) although linen
                  could be possible if the embroidery completely covered it. I don't
                  know if this sort of useage transfers to non-clerical useage. Several
                  of the cingula are probably quite stiff from the ammount of emboidery
                  (often goldwork).

                  Teffania






                  On 9/3/05, Marc Carlson <marccarlson20@...> wrote:
                  > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
                  > > Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or
                  > > were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads
                  > > of silk, linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing'
                  > > style you refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.
                  >
                  > Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources)
                  >
                  > Marc/Diarmaid
                  > (I'm currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that
                  > I *know* is in this stupid book, but it doesn't want to give it up...)
                  >
                • sismith42
                  ... Ah, so my snide little see page one of a Google search for the obvious topic comment wasn t pointed enough? ;-) Stephanie/Estevana
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 7, 2005
                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h
                    ...> wrote:
                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...>
                    wrote:
                    > > ...Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to
                    > > answer the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:...
                    >
                    > Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)

                    Ah, so my snide little "see page one of a Google search for the
                    obvious topic" comment wasn't pointed enough? ;-)

                    Stephanie/Estevana
                  • Marc Carlson
                    ... No, it was fine, for this specific topic (i.e. look here to support your position ). The point I was aiming for was a little broader ( just because
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 7, 2005
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...> wrote:
                      >> Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)
                      > Ah, so my snide little "see page one of a Google search for the
                      > obvious topic" comment wasn't pointed enough? ;-)

                      No, it was fine, for this specific topic (i.e. "look here to support
                      your position"). The point I was aiming for was a little broader
                      ("just because something is logically valid doesn't make it true").

                      Ah well, maybe next time :)

                      Marc/Diarmaid
                    • michaelstuartgraham
                      -Hi, All. If I might weigh in on this subject, as one who wears garters regularly with my 16th/17th Cent kit, garters are intended to be tied above the calf
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 18, 2005
                        -Hi, All. If I might weigh in on this subject, as one who wears
                        garters regularly with my 16th/17th Cent kit, garters are intended to
                        be tied above the calf and below the knee to hold up the hose. Wool
                        being slightly springy, it allows the garters to hold up the hose
                        without being too constrictive, sort of a period version of elastic.
                        To use the same analogy, we do have modern belts and trousers
                        (sansabelts) that do the same thing, but on the whole, belts for the
                        waist are generally made to be rigid rather than elastic, so as to
                        hold up the stuff they were meant to carry (purse, knife, etc.)and so
                        are made of leather or some other material that has some support. Mike T.
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