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Re: belts

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  • lucia_sforza
    In the Museum of London s _Dress Accessories_, wool garters are found. If garters, why not belts? Lucia Sforza I know lots of extant belt buckles have been
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
      In the Museum of London's _Dress Accessories_, wool garters are found.
      If garters, why not belts?

      Lucia Sforza

      I know lots of extant belt buckles have been unearthed, but what
      about belts? Anyone ever
      > heard of a wool belt being recovered?
      >
      > --Joya
    • Marc Carlson
      ... Meaning no disrespect, but there s a fallacy there. Just because something is possible doesn t mean it happened that way. The only way to prove that they
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...> wrote:
        > In the Museum of London's _Dress Accessories_, wool garters are
        > found. If garters, why not belts?

        Meaning no disrespect, but there's a fallacy there. Just because
        something is possible doesn't mean it happened that way. The only way
        to prove that they did do it is to find some (and isn't there a woven
        belt IN Dress Accessories?).

        Now if you want to do woven belts because you know there are woven
        garters, that's hunky dory, but it's speculation.

        Marc/Diarmaid
      • lucia_sforza
        MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DON T TOP-POST, RATHER, SNIP AND INCLUDE ONLY THE RELEVANT PORTIONS OF A POST YOU WISH TO QUOTE. If we are limited to only extant finds,
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
          MODERATOR NOTE:
          PLEASE DON'T TOP-POST, RATHER, SNIP AND INCLUDE ONLY THE RELEVANT PORTIONS OF A POST YOU WISH TO QUOTE.


          If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty naked
          and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set of clothing!

          This would also remove ALL paintings and illuminations as reference
          sources, because we cannot validate actual garment from artistic
          license. This would also invalidate written techniques, as we cannot
          confirm the writer actually did/witnessed the technique.

          I wholeheartly agree of using archeological means whenever possible,
          but limited interpretation is essential since we cannot excavate an
          entire culture.

          Lucia
        • Marc Carlson
          ... Since I didn t suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not really something I can speak to. ... Again, nothing I can speak to but you do seem to
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...> wrote:
            > If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty
            > naked and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set of
            > clothing!

            Since I didn't suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not
            really something I can speak to.

            > This would also remove ALL paintings and illuminations as reference
            > sources, because we cannot validate actual garment from artistic
            > license. This would also invalidate written techniques, as we
            > cannot confirm the writer actually did/witnessed the technique.

            Again, nothing I can speak to but you do seem to be making the best
            the enemy of the good, which, while not a traditional logical fallacy,
            ought to be (in my opinion).

            > I wholeheartly agree of using archeological means whenever
            > possible, but limited interpretation is essential since we cannot
            > excavate an entire culture.

            I doubt you've ever heard me suggest that archaeology is the only
            available source material, I certainly have no problems with using
            other sources of information.

            However, the statement "well they had this similar thing, why couldn't
            they have had that" is not basing doing something on some other
            source, it's basing doing something on speculation.

            For example, chairs. I have heard the argument given "that well we
            know they knew how to make chairs with a back, so I'm going to use a
            chair with a back", when the fact is that chairs with backs were not
            common until relatively recently. This is because chairs had an
            ideotechnic function that trumped simply being able to make them. The
            person with the chair was the socially superior/suthoritative person
            in the room/household/college/meeting/whathave you. That's why
            committees today have "Chairmen".

            The fact that they *could* do it doesn't alter the fact that they
            *didn't* do it.

            Marc/Diarmaid
          • sismith42
            ... of ... Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to answer the question of did they weave belts or not? , well:
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h
              ...> wrote:
              > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...>
              wrote:
              > > If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty
              > > naked and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set
              of
              > > clothing!
              >
              > Since I didn't suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not
              > really something I can speak to.

              Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to answer
              the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:

              http://www.guntram.co.za/tabletweaving/docs/belt2003/belt2003.
              htm#AppendixB

              http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/belts/belts.html

              (both found on page one a Google search for medieval woven belt...)

              Stephanie
            • Marc Carlson
              ... Shhh! I m trying to make a point :) BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I know I ve seen a picture of one that s a plan
              Message 6 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...> wrote:
                > ...Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to
                > answer the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:...

                Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)

                BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I
                know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven band
                that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.

                Marc/Diarmaid
              • Amy Heilveil
                ... If you re hallucinating, so am I because I know exactly what you re talking about.... now, after work, I ll have to pull the book off of the shelf before I
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
                  >
                  >
                  > BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I
                  > know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven band
                  > that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.


                  If you're hallucinating, so am I because I know exactly what you're talking
                  about.... now, after work, I'll have to pull the book off of the shelf
                  before I head to an event for the weekend.
                  Smiles,
                  Despina de la darned people plant images in your head when you need to pack


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Cynthia J Ley
                  ... Pg 35: Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads of silk, linen or
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
                    > BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories?
                    > I
                    > know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven
                    > band
                    > that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.
                    >
                    > Marc/Diarmaid

                    Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or were
                    woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads of silk,
                    linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing' style you
                    refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.

                    Arlys
                  • Marc Carlson
                    ... Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources) Marc/Diarmaid (I m currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that I *know* is in this
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
                      > Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or
                      > were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads
                      > of silk, linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing'
                      > style you refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.

                      Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources)

                      Marc/Diarmaid
                      (I'm currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that
                      I *know* is in this stupid book, but it doesn't want to give it up...)
                    • Tiffany Brown
                      Just a quick note - it s after my bedtime. Tabletweaving makes very versatile and tough belts in a technique that is easy to add elaboration (during production
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
                        Just a quick note - it's after my bedtime.

                        Tabletweaving makes very versatile and tough belts in a technique that
                        is easy to add elaboration (during production or after) too. I
                        suspect this is what makes them very popular. I think I can find half
                        a dozen extant examples in my tiny reference library. I find even a
                        simple tabletwoven belt far suprerior to any cloth belt, especially
                        for stiffness and grip to the garment underneath. Generally silk is
                        used (ordinary grade wool is not very suitable) some linen, a handful
                        wool - most reflect rich folk easily able to afford silk.

                        I've seen a few 12th french scupltures (I don't look much at other
                        periods) and a few manuscript drawings that are a bit more vaugue,
                        that look to be plaited rope belts.

                        The priest's ceremonial belt - cingulum was often preserved, so we
                        have lots of extant ones, often very heavily decorated. A number are
                        made from cloth, heavily embroidered. I think all the ones I've seen
                        were silk fabric (when you can afford it get the best) although linen
                        could be possible if the embroidery completely covered it. I don't
                        know if this sort of useage transfers to non-clerical useage. Several
                        of the cingula are probably quite stiff from the ammount of emboidery
                        (often goldwork).

                        Teffania






                        On 9/3/05, Marc Carlson <marccarlson20@...> wrote:
                        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
                        > > Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or
                        > > were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads
                        > > of silk, linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing'
                        > > style you refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.
                        >
                        > Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources)
                        >
                        > Marc/Diarmaid
                        > (I'm currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that
                        > I *know* is in this stupid book, but it doesn't want to give it up...)
                        >
                      • sismith42
                        ... Ah, so my snide little see page one of a Google search for the obvious topic comment wasn t pointed enough? ;-) Stephanie/Estevana
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 7, 2005
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h
                          ...> wrote:
                          > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > > ...Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to
                          > > answer the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:...
                          >
                          > Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)

                          Ah, so my snide little "see page one of a Google search for the
                          obvious topic" comment wasn't pointed enough? ;-)

                          Stephanie/Estevana
                        • Marc Carlson
                          ... No, it was fine, for this specific topic (i.e. look here to support your position ). The point I was aiming for was a little broader ( just because
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 7, 2005
                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...> wrote:
                            >> Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)
                            > Ah, so my snide little "see page one of a Google search for the
                            > obvious topic" comment wasn't pointed enough? ;-)

                            No, it was fine, for this specific topic (i.e. "look here to support
                            your position"). The point I was aiming for was a little broader
                            ("just because something is logically valid doesn't make it true").

                            Ah well, maybe next time :)

                            Marc/Diarmaid
                          • michaelstuartgraham
                            -Hi, All. If I might weigh in on this subject, as one who wears garters regularly with my 16th/17th Cent kit, garters are intended to be tied above the calf
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 18, 2005
                              -Hi, All. If I might weigh in on this subject, as one who wears
                              garters regularly with my 16th/17th Cent kit, garters are intended to
                              be tied above the calf and below the knee to hold up the hose. Wool
                              being slightly springy, it allows the garters to hold up the hose
                              without being too constrictive, sort of a period version of elastic.
                              To use the same analogy, we do have modern belts and trousers
                              (sansabelts) that do the same thing, but on the whole, belts for the
                              waist are generally made to be rigid rather than elastic, so as to
                              hold up the stuff they were meant to carry (purse, knife, etc.)and so
                              are made of leather or some other material that has some support. Mike T.
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