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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: onionskin dyeing WAS: dye, cheap and easy (in Jan. 20...

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  • kittencat3@aol.com
    Don t know about onion skins, but it s worth a shot. Note: *if* you can afford it, saffron makes a pleasant yellow dye. It s hideously expensive, though.
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 29 2:15 PM
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      Don't know about onion skins, but it's worth a shot.

      Note: *if* you can afford it, saffron makes a pleasant yellow dye. It's
      hideously expensive, though. Another food grade possibility that isn't perfect
      but won't bleach while you wear it: St. John's Wort produces a pleasant
      yellow dye.

      Here's an excellent source of information for you:
      http://www.geocities.com/anne_liese_w/Dyeing/dyehistory.htm. I believe the Webmistress, Mistress
      AnneLiese, has links to Mistress Thora Sharptooth, who is THE expert on Viking
      fiber culture for the East. Good luck!

      Sarah Davies


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • kittencat3@aol.com
      How long has the color lasted? I ve seen turmeric-dyed linen bleach before my eyes on a sunny day, and the same thing happened to silk, wool, and linen
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 29 6:39 PM
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        How long has the color lasted? I've seen turmeric-dyed linen bleach before
        my eyes on a sunny day, and the same thing happened to silk, wool, and linen
        samples in the A&S exhibition at Pennsic. Very interesting.

        Thanks.

        Sarah Davies


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • dona_violante
        ... It s ... You can find saffron cheaper if you go to an ethnic grocer, BUT make sure that what you are buying really is saffron. If it s powdered saffron
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 30 5:33 AM
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          > Note: *if* you can afford it, saffron makes a pleasant yellow dye.
          It's
          > hideously expensive, though.

          You can find saffron cheaper if you go to an ethnic grocer, BUT make
          sure that what you are buying really is saffron. If it's "powdered
          saffron" don't do it! And safflower petals are sometimes marketed
          as "Azafran" as though they were saffron as well, and you won't get
          nearly the same results.

          But as long as we're talking about yellow dyes from food stuffs, don't
          pomegranate rinds give yellow as well? (If you can find them, anyway -
          I haven't seen pomegranates in my local stores in forever.)

          Cheers,
          Violante
          http://www.spanishpeacock.com/violante.htm
        • willo
          ... I will check on how much saffron I would need. Perhaps it is affordable enough to do only a veil? (And Violante s points on avoiding bogus saffron are duly
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 30 5:55 AM
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "dona_violante" <dona_violante@c...> wrote:

            > > Note: *if* you can afford it, saffron makes a pleasant yellow dye.

            > But as long as we're talking about yellow dyes from food stuffs, don't
            > pomegranate rinds give yellow as well? (If you can find them, anyway -
            > I haven't seen pomegranates in my local stores in forever.)

            I will check on how much saffron I would need. Perhaps it is affordable enough to do only
            a veil? (And Violante's points on avoiding bogus saffron are duly noted.)

            Now pomeganates--my husband loves those! Unlike boiling onions, which will make him
            grind his teeth, if I tell him I need him to eat a big stack of pomegranates so I can have the
            rinds, he'll be pretty happy to oblige.

            :)

            I think I'll just try the turmeric first and see what happens. It's just a veil, after all!

            I'll be sure to post my results, especially as I will probably try several other methods for
            yellow once the weather cools and boiling in my kitchen becomes a more attractive
            prospect.

            Since my persona is Spanish, saffron is a logical dye choice. Onions are probably fine, and
            aren't pomegranates Mediteranean? I don't know where turmeric comes from, but I can
            handle this level of potential dissonance for now.

            --Joya
          • Amy Heilveil
            On saffron dying.... In the groups photos section, the file named Bogdan and Despina, second row, third picture, named Dorthea . The sleeves that are yellow
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 30 6:33 AM
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              On saffron dying....
              In the groups photos section,
              the file named Bogdan and Despina,
              second row, third picture,
              named 'Dorthea'.
              The sleeves that are yellow are saffron dyed. I did 4 yards of habitoi silk
              and less than an ounce of saffron; this is the color it came out. I was very
              pleased. It hasn't faded in the sunlight any of the times I've worn the
              outfit.
              Hope this helps,
              Smiles,
              Despina de la really liked the color


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • borderlands15213
              Isn t now, or very soon, pomegranate season? Seems to me a non-SCA friend starts getting antsy right about this time of year for his annual pomegranate orgy.
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 30 7:27 AM
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                Isn't now, or very soon, pomegranate season? Seems to me a non-SCA
                friend starts getting antsy right about this time of year for his
                annual pomegranate orgy.

                Yseult the Gentle

                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "dona_violante"
                <dona_violante@c...> wrote:
                >
                > > Note: *if* you can afford it, saffron makes a pleasant yellow
                dye.
                > It's
                > > hideously expensive, though.
                >
                > You can find saffron cheaper if you go to an ethnic grocer, BUT
                make
                > sure that what you are buying really is saffron. If it's "powdered
                > saffron" don't do it! And safflower petals are sometimes marketed
                > as "Azafran" as though they were saffron as well, and you won't get
                > nearly the same results.
                >
                > But as long as we're talking about yellow dyes from food stuffs,
                don't
                > pomegranate rinds give yellow as well? (If you can find them,
                anyway -
                > I haven't seen pomegranates in my local stores in forever.)
                >
                > Cheers,
                > Violante
                > http://www.spanishpeacock.com/violante.htm
              • dona_violante
                ... Onions are probably fine, and ... from, but I can ... Pomegranate comes from French pomme de Granada , aka, Grandan Apple . Turmeric was also available
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 30 9:53 AM
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                  > Since my persona is Spanish, saffron is a logical dye choice.
                  Onions are probably fine, and
                  > aren't pomegranates Mediteranean? I don't know where turmeric comes
                  from, but I can
                  > handle this level of potential dissonance for now.

                  Pomegranate comes from French "pomme de Granada", aka, "Grandan
                  Apple". Turmeric was also available in medieval Spain (as an import,
                  I believe). Yellow could also be achieved with weld, Avignon Berry
                  (aka Dyer's Buckthorn), and an Old World plant called "smoke tree"
                  which apparently dyed similarly to the New World dye, fustic. And if
                  later period is OK, fustic is definitely an option. I've heard you
                  can get yellow from black oak bark as well.

                  Now, just because something *could* be used to dye fiber, doesn't
                  necessarily mean it was used for that. As has already been pointed
                  out, turmeric isn't necessarily light fast and saffron was probably
                  too expensive for general use.

                  That still doesn't answer your question about what you should use for
                  this particular project...but it gives you an idea of the variety of
                  dyes that would have been available. ;)

                  (Guess who's currently working on a Tournaments Illuminated article
                  about the dyestuffs of medieval Spain...?)

                  Cheers,
                  Violante
                  http://www.spanishpeacock.com/violante.htm
                • dona_violante
                  ... Onions are probably fine, and ... from, but I can ... Pomegranate comes from French pomme de Granada , aka, Grandan Apple . Turmeric was also available
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 30 9:53 AM
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                    > Since my persona is Spanish, saffron is a logical dye choice.
                    Onions are probably fine, and
                    > aren't pomegranates Mediteranean? I don't know where turmeric comes
                    from, but I can
                    > handle this level of potential dissonance for now.

                    Pomegranate comes from French "pomme de Granada", aka, "Grandan
                    Apple". Turmeric was also available in medieval Spain (as an import,
                    I believe). Yellow could also be achieved with weld, Avignon Berry
                    (aka Dyer's Buckthorn), and an Old World plant called "smoke tree"
                    which apparently dyed similarly to the New World dye, fustic. And if
                    later period is OK, fustic is definitely an option. I've heard you
                    can get yellow from black oak bark as well.

                    Now, just because something *could* be used to dye fiber, doesn't
                    necessarily mean it was used for that. As has already been pointed
                    out, turmeric isn't necessarily light fast and saffron was probably
                    too expensive for general use.

                    That still doesn't answer your question about what you should use for
                    this particular project...but it gives you an idea of the variety of
                    dyes that would have been available. ;)

                    (Guess who's currently working on a Tournaments Illuminated article
                    about the dyestuffs of medieval Spain...?)

                    Cheers,
                    Violante
                    http://www.spanishpeacock.com/violante.htm
                  • lilinah@earthlink.net
                    ... Turmeric is a rhizome related to ginger that grows in Southeast Asia. It has been cultivated by humans for so long that there are no wild cultivars. For a
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 30 3:49 PM
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                      Joya wrote:
                      >I don't know where turmeric comes from, but I can
                      >handle this level of potential dissonance for now.

                      Turmeric is a rhizome related to ginger that grows in Southeast Asia.
                      It has been cultivated by humans for so long that there are no wild
                      cultivars.

                      For a little info and photos see:
                      <http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/generic_noframe.html?Curc_lon.html>

                      In cooking turmeric is NO substitute for saffron. While both have a
                      powerful yellow color, saffron adds a remarkable fragrance and
                      flavor. Turmeric isn't flavorless - in fact, it can be a bit bitter -
                      but in the quantities usually called for it is essentially flavorless
                      and is used chiefly to add color.

                      To the best of my knowledge, turmeric doesn't seem to have been
                      imported to Europe much in SCA period. It would have been seen as a
                      poor substitute for saffron, unless it had medicinal uses, which it
                      does in Southeast Asia.

                      --
                      Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                      the persona formerly known as Anahita
                    • kittencat3@aol.com
                      Weld was *the* yellow dyestuff of choice for medieval Europe...I believe goldenrod as a dyeplant is an American import. But I could be wrong :) Sarah
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 30 5:09 PM
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                        Weld was *the* yellow dyestuff of choice for medieval Europe...I believe
                        goldenrod as a dyeplant is an American import. But I could be wrong :)

                        Sarah


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • sue_clemenger
                        Going on four years now. It s not quite the same level of screaming yellow it was, but it s still pretty strong. --maire ... before ... and linen
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 30 7:02 PM
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                          Going on four years now. It's not quite the same level of screaming
                          yellow it was, but it's still pretty strong.
                          --maire

                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, kittencat3@a... wrote:
                          > How long has the color lasted? I've seen turmeric-dyed linen bleach
                          before
                          > my eyes on a sunny day, and the same thing happened to silk, wool,
                          and linen
                          > samples in the A&S exhibition at Pennsic. Very interesting.
                          >
                          > Thanks.
                          >
                          > Sarah Davies
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • willo
                          ... Now I really want to try a really scientific experiment with turmeric to see what happens for myself. :) Ladies, do you recall the details of your
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 31 6:36 AM
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                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sue_clemenger" <sue_clemenger@y...> wrote:
                            > Going on four years now. It's not quite the same level of screaming
                            > yellow it was, but it's still pretty strong.
                            > --maire
                            >
                            > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, kittencat3@a... wrote:
                            > > How long has the color lasted? I've seen turmeric-dyed [silk, wool,
                            > > and linen] bleach... on a sunny day

                            Now I really want to try a really "scientific" experiment with turmeric to see what happens
                            for myself. :) Ladies, do you recall the details of your techniques? Maybe there were
                            differences in dyestuffs, mordants, times, and/or temps? Or perhaps water quality/
                            hardness/softness has an effect? Could UV levels be wildly different in your respective
                            locations?

                            But for now, I've got to get back to sewing, or I will be undressed this weekend. Science
                            must wait.

                            --Joya
                          • Katherine Throckmorton
                            ... Let me see....I used a new bag of tumeric from a Indian grocery. I don t recall the exact proportions but I probobly used 1/2 a cup to a cup in 3-4
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 31 8:46 AM
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                              > Ladies, do you recall the details of your
                              > techniques? Maybe there were
                              > differences in dyestuffs, mordants, times, and/or temps? Or perhaps
                              > water quality/
                              > hardness/softness has an effect? Could UV levels be wildly
                              > different in your respective
                              > locations?


                              Let me see....I used a new bag of tumeric from a Indian grocery. I don't recall the exact proportions but I probobly used 1/2 a cup to a cup in 3-4 gallons of water. I was dying about 1 yard of medium weight linen. I simmered the whole thing for a couple of hours, then rinsed the fabric out in cold water once it had cooled to lukewarm.
                              I live in Arizona and the sunbonnet that I made (for ACW, not SCA) was worn at events in AZ and New Mexico. This means very hard water and high UV. I wore the bonnet to 4 or 5 weekend events over the course of a year and then stopped.
                              I stopped because there was something about the color that bugged horses, which can be a safety issue at larger ACW events. By the end of the year the bonnet was perhaps *slightly* lighter, but not much.

                              -Katherine
                              >
                              > But for now, I've got to get back to sewing, or I will be undressed
                              > this weekend. Science
                              > must wait.
                              >
                              > --Joya



                              Every weekend, we gather hundreds of people together, none of whom have had enough sleep.
                              -Robin's Unified Theory of SCA Dynamics


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                            • ranvaig@columbus.rr.com
                              ... Safflower is a poor substitute for saffron in cooking, but Safflower is a period dye in its own right. It contains both a yellow and a red pigment and was
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 3, 2005
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                                >
                                >You can find saffron cheaper if you go to an ethnic grocer, BUT make
                                >sure that what you are buying really is saffron. If it's "powdered
                                >saffron" don't do it! And safflower petals are sometimes marketed
                                >as "Azafran" as though they were saffron as well, and you won't get
                                >nearly the same results.

                                Safflower is a poor substitute for saffron in cooking, but Safflower
                                is a period dye in its own right. It contains both a yellow and a
                                red pigment and was usually processed to obtain the red dye. I've
                                seen comments that it is not entirely lightfast, but I'm not sure if
                                that is the red or the yellow. It also has been used as a cosmetic
                                and food color.

                                ranvaig
                              • lilinah@earthlink.net
                                ... Do you have any more info on safflower s use in cosmetics? I m especially interested in Southwest Asia (aka Middle East), South Asia, and Central Asia. --
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 4, 2005
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                                  ranvaig wrote:
                                  >Safflower is a poor substitute for saffron in cooking, but Safflower
                                  >is a period dye in its own right. It contains both a yellow and a
                                  >red pigment and was usually processed to obtain the red dye. I've
                                  >seen comments that it is not entirely lightfast, but I'm not sure if
                                  >that is the red or the yellow. It also has been used as a cosmetic
                                  >and food color.

                                  Do you have any more info on safflower's use in cosmetics? I'm
                                  especially interested in Southwest Asia (aka Middle East), South
                                  Asia, and Central Asia.
                                  --
                                  Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                                  the persona formerly known as Anahita
                                • kittencat3@aol.com
                                  Neither of the safflower dyes is lightfast. And it is a tremendous bother to process out the yellow dye to get the pink, especially when brazilwood produces
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 4, 2005
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                                    Neither of the safflower dyes is lightfast. And it is a tremendous bother to
                                    process out the yellow dye to get the pink, especially when brazilwood
                                    produces just about the same shades and is much more convenient to use.

                                    Sarah Davies


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • dona_violante
                                    ... bother to ... brazilwood ... use. ... Yeah but...it sounds like such fun to try! http://reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/safflower.html It s on my dyeing
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 6, 2005
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                                      > Neither of the safflower dyes is lightfast. And it is a tremendous
                                      bother to
                                      > process out the yellow dye to get the pink, especially when
                                      brazilwood
                                      > produces just about the same shades and is much more convenient to
                                      use.
                                      >

                                      Yeah but...it sounds like such fun to try!

                                      http://reconstructinghistory.com/japanese/safflower.html

                                      It's on my dyeing to-do list. But then, so are a lot of other
                                      dyes! ;)

                                      Cheers,
                                      Violante
                                      http://www.spanishpeacock.com/violante.htm
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