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beautiful manuscripts, bibliotheque nationale

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  • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
    If this link has been posted before, my apologies. This is part of the search resource on the Bibliotheque Nationale. Anyway, here are four beautiful
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 25, 2005
      If this link has been posted before, my apologies. This is part of
      the search resource on the Bibliotheque Nationale. Anyway, here are
      four beautiful manuscripts.

      http://gallica.bnf.fr/

      click on 'recherche' (red tab)

      when the search page comes up, enter the following numbers in the
      'recherche libre' box (just enter the numbers!)

      9474 - this is a stunning botanical manuscript - any flower you can
      think of, it's beautifully illustrated here

      9333 - not as pretty as the above, but this is medieval people
      (almost 200 pages of 'em) doing everything you can thing of, making
      cheese and then the cheese shop, making butter, all sorts of
      butchering & the types of butcher shops, LOTS of everyday occupations
      (I'd love to know what the couple in the bed are doing, somebody
      scratched out their body parts, probably some outraged Victorian)

      1113 - Persian manuscript

      190 - Turkish manuscript

      Toujours a vos ordres,
      Margaret Hepburn
    • Karen
      ... BNF Richelieu MS Latin 9333 -- online at http://gallica.bnf.fr/notice?N=MAN01940 -- is a manuscript of the Tacuinum Sanitatis, which describes the
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 25, 2005
        Margaret Hepburn wrote:

        > 9333 - not as pretty as the above, but this is medieval people
        > (almost 200 pages of 'em) doing everything you can thing of

        BNF Richelieu MS Latin 9333 -- online at
        http://gallica.bnf.fr/notice?N=MAN01940 -- is a manuscript of the
        Tacuinum Sanitatis, which describes the scientific nature of many
        different things, from linen fabric to camel meat. (It was a
        translation of an earlier Arabic book.)

        For more information about the Tacuinum Sanitatis, and illustrations
        from other editions, see http://www.godecookery.com/tacuin/tacuin.htm

        Karen


        > 1113 - Persian manuscript
        >
        > 190 - Turkish manuscript
        >
        > Toujours a vos ordres,
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > Message: 5
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:16:53 -0000
        > From: "glaukopisathene" <phoenissa@...>
        > Subject: Re: more bedding questions
        >
        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather Rose Jones
        > <heather.jones@e...> wrote:
        > > One great place to find information about that would be in wills,
        > > especially of middle-class people. That's the context where you
        > > _might_ find someone saying, "To so-and-so I give my best sheets
        > with
        > > <ornamentation> and to so-and-so-else I give my plain sheets." I'm
        >
        > > not saying that you _will_ find that sort of description, but it's
        > a
        > > likely place if it exists. (This may not tell you what the
        > > ornamentation looks like or what techniques were used, but it could
        >
        > > give clues to what extent it was done at all.)
        >
        > That's exactly what I was planning to look for in the library,
        > whenever I get a chance to head over there. I'd be happy with
        > anything from post-1500 northern Italy, France or England -- times
        > and
        > places that hardly suffer from a lack of written documents... I did
        > also look at some of Elizabeth I's gift lists, which I found on the
        > web, and while there was no shortage of handkerchiefs or sleeves or
        > purses full of coins, I didn't spot any mention of bed linens...
        >
        >
        > Vittoria
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        > Message: 6
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 08:24:59 -0700
        > From: lilinah@...
        > Subject: Re: OT: fun aging calculator - AKA Old Fart Index
        >
        > I've only been in the SCA 6 years and i'm waaaaay beyond Smart Ass.
        > I'm already an Old Fart. That's in name only, my personal habits are
        > better than that.
        >
        > On the other hand, the first SCA event i attended was in 1969...
        > --
        > Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
        > the persona formerly known as Anahita
        >
        >
        >
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        > Message: 7
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:27:44 -0000
        > From: "glaukopisathene" <phoenissa@...>
        > Subject: Re: Hurley
        >
        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Amy Heilveil <amyheilveil@g...>
        > wrote:
        > > . But I have friends who've done
        > > > some more in-depth research, and could probably get the details
        > from
        > > > them if anyone's interested...
        > > >
        > >
        > > That would be lovely.
        >
        > OK, I'll see what I can glean from them. :-)
        >
        > > And there's no need to apologize for not
        > > knowing a subject inside and out when you only discovered it a week
        > > ago!
        >
        > But Despina darling, as I'm sure you well know, it's one of the side
        > effects -- nay, the tortures! -- of academic life, and it creeps into
        > all my hobbies. ;-) It feels like a major sin to try to disseminate
        > information on a subject into which I haven't done my own
        > research....I have this totally irrational fear that my advisors
        > would
        > rap me on the knuckles if they caught me making such ill-informed
        > statements. ;-) And as if I didn't already have the research bug for
        > a ludicrous number of subjects, now I want to learn about a new sport
        > too...and I'm not even an athlete. ;-P
        >
        >
        > Vittoria
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > Message: 8
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:44:49 -0500
        > From: "Susan B. Farmer" <sfarmer@...>
        > Subject: Re: Re: Hurley
        >
        > Quoting glaukopisathene <phoenissa@...>:
        >
        > >
        > > But Despina darling, as I'm sure you well know, it's one of the
        > side
        > > effects -- nay, the tortures! -- of academic life, and it creeps
        > into
        > > all my hobbies. ;-) It feels like a major sin to try to
        > disseminate
        > > information on a subject into which I haven't done my own
        > > research....I have this totally irrational fear that my advisors
        > would
        > > rap me on the knuckles if they caught me making such ill-informed
        > > statements. ;-) And as if I didn't already have the research bug
        > for
        > > a ludicrous number of subjects, now I want to learn about a new
        > sport
        > > too...and I'm not even an athlete. ;-P
        > >
        >
        > Who are you and what are you doning in my skin? :-) I had to laugh
        > out
        > loud at the "must do my own research or they will smite me" thoughts.
        > Doesn't matter that it's not even what the dissertation is about,
        > must
        > do my own research .........
        >
        > still laughing
        > Jerusha
        > -----
        > Susan Farmer
        > sfarmer@...
        > University of Tennessee
        > Department of Ecology and Evolutionary Biology
        > http://www.goldsword.com/sfarmer/Trillium/
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > Message: 9
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 16:59:53 -0000
        > From: "glaukopisathene" <phoenissa@...>
        > Subject: Re: Hurley
        >
        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Susan B. Farmer"
        > <sfarmer@g...>
        > wrote:
        > > Who are you and what are you doning in my skin? :-) I had to
        > laugh out
        > > loud at the "must do my own research or they will smite me"
        > thoughts.
        > > Doesn't matter that it's not even what the dissertation is about,
        > must
        > > do my own research .........
        > >
        > > still laughing
        > > Jerusha
        >
        > Awesome. ;-) It gets better, though -- my dissertation research will
        > actually be focused on renaissance literature and culture, and it's
        > really funny when my academic work starts to leak into my sca life,
        > and vice-versa... Although so far I've been sneakily successful at
        > hiding my little hobby from my colleagues. ;-)
        >
        >
        > Vittoria
        > who really should, even as we speak, be studying for quals instead of
        > playing on the computer...
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > Message: 10
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 09:52:22 -0700 (PDT)
        > From: Kevin Myers <dobharchu@...>
        > Subject: Re: Re: Hurley (was: Pennsic soccer?)
        >
        > I would suggest reading the Tain Bo Chuailnge to start. The game is
        > mentioned in the parts pertaining to CuChulainn's childhood (where he
        > takes on the entire boy-troop of Emain Macha singlehandedly).
        >
        > The story is supposed to have taken place in the 1st cent AD, but the
        > form we have today was written down in about the 12th century (IIRC).
        >
        > It doesn't really mention what the players were wearing but there is
        > a
        > section later in the story describing the warriors in Cochobhar
        > MacNessa's Sluagh (war-band) that is very detailed. No one person was
        > wearing the same thing.
        >
        > -Cainnech Ruad
        > BTW, I'm well acquainted with the folks from Settmour Swamp--my wife
        > hails from there--The hurley jerseys are Clan Bheithir's fault
        > (mostly):).
        >
        > --- Laura Morgan <valkerie1000@...> wrote:
        >
        > > which is fine if there is written documentation for the game to
        > > clarify...is there?
        > >
        > > otherwise we are just guessing, I think.
        > >
        > > Laure
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > Message: 11
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:09:09 -0700 (PDT)
        > From: Huette von Ahrens <mechthildberg@...>
        > Subject: Re: Hurley
        >
        > MODERATOR NOTE:
        > PLEASE REMOVE ALL BUT PERTINENT BITS WHEN ADDRESSING A PREVIOUS POST
        >
        > But I have
        > > friends who've done
        > > some more in-depth research, and could probably get
        > > the details from
        > > them if anyone's interested...
        > >
        >
        >
        > I would like to see this research. I am very much
        > into games, but I have found no documentation for
        > "hurling", which is what the game was called back
        > then, before
        > 1527.
        >
        > I have just been surfing the web and found this, which
        > is nice, but not well documented ...
        >
        > http://www.bheithir.org/intro.html
        >
        > and this, again, not documented :
        >
        > http://www.ssi-developer.net/finland-gaa/hurling/
        >
        > However, this is much better:
        >
        > http://www.klotz.org/SCA/mudpuppy/history_of_hurling.htm
        >
        > Here is a website on the history of bandy:
        >
        >
        http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Track/2049/English/Bandyhistory.html
        >
        > I like their use of period art to illustrate their
        > statements.
        >
        > Huette
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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        > Message: 12
        > Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:24:40 -0400
        > From: Erik Hansen <asbjorneh@...>
        > Subject: Silk in 16th century Persia
        >
        > I'm having a set of 16th Persian clothes made for an upcoming event.
        > I have patterns for the clothes, but I'm not sure what type of silk
        > is
        > appropriate to use. I've been told that some modern silks are not
        > very similar to period silks, but I'm not sure what to chose for this
        > place and era. Can anyone point me in the right direction?
        >
        > Asbjorn
        >
        >
        >
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      • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
        Ohhhhhkayyyyyyy - couldn t read all the French - that makes more sense now, because I couldn t figure out why there were Arabic words in the original French
        Message 3 of 14 , Aug 25, 2005
          Ohhhhhkayyyyyyy - couldn't read all the French - that makes more
          sense now, because I couldn't figure out why there were Arabic words
          in the original French description...I just thought it was nifty &
          wanted to share. I loved how it showed so very many everyday things
          (I loved the animals waiting under the table for the housewife to
          drop the butter.....). I was vaguely familiar with it, but had never
          seen too much of it, it's way out of period for me, generally.
          Thanks for pointing that out...
          The version that's on the Bibliotheque nationale does show 205
          illustrations, though......but the Gode Cookery site has the
          translations for the 48 it shows.
          Cheers,
          Margaret Hepburn

          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Karen <karen_larsdatter@y...>
          wrote:
          > Margaret Hepburn wrote:
          >
          > > 9333 - not as pretty as the above, but this is medieval people
          > > (almost 200 pages of 'em) doing everything you can thing of
          >
          > BNF Richelieu MS Latin 9333 -- online at
          > http://gallica.bnf.fr/notice?N=MAN01940 -- is a manuscript of the
          > Tacuinum Sanitatis, which describes the scientific nature of many
          > different things, from linen fabric to camel meat. (It was a
          > translation of an earlier Arabic book.)
          >
          > For more information about the Tacuinum Sanitatis, and
          illustrations
          > from other editions, see
          http://www.godecookery.com/tacuin/tacuin.htm
          >
          > Karen
        • m d b
          ... Probably... Wow, some of the garb details are amazing! I am feeling the pull to do earlier stuff beacuse there was some super pretty items in there!
          Message 4 of 14 , Aug 26, 2005
            > If this link has been posted before, my apologies. This is part of
            > the search resource on the Bibliotheque Nationale. Anyway, here are
            > four beautiful manuscripts.
            >
            > http://gallica.bnf.fr/
            >
            > click on 'recherche' (red tab)
            > 9333 - not as pretty as the above, but this is medieval people
            > (almost 200 pages of 'em) doing everything you can thing of, making
            > cheese and then the cheese shop, making butter, all sorts of
            > butchering & the types of butcher shops, LOTS of everyday occupations
            > (I'd love to know what the couple in the bed are doing, somebody
            > scratched out their body parts, probably some outraged Victorian)

            Probably...

            Wow, some of the garb details are amazing! I am feeling the pull to do
            earlier stuff beacuse there was some super pretty items in there!
            Actually they look in some cases very victorian, I wonder if maybe the
            ladies were coloured in as well;) Actually it would have to be a very
            good job as it all looks at this scale to be authentic.

            Thank you, I had been to BNF before but often get hopelessly lost.

            Regards,
            Willemyne van Nymegen
          • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
            Now that the summer camping season is over (alas, for mundane personal reasons I was unable to do anything medieval....) I m thinking about next year, and what
            Message 5 of 14 , Aug 26, 2005
              Now that the summer camping season is over (alas, for
              mundane personal reasons I was unable to do anything
              medieval....) I'm thinking about next year, and what I
              want to do for a tent. I'm leaning toward a wedge,
              but there seem to be a number of possibilities in that
              line. I want something authentic for 10th-13th
              century Gwynnedd, which given the evidence (I think it
              can be summarized as "They had tents.") means Norman,
              Viking, Anglo-Saxon and Irish influences are all fair
              game. And since all the commercially available tents
              I've seen are cotton canvas, I'll pretend it's
              linen...so white, with painted decoration, strikes me
              as most probable.

              Choices (all available from Panther Primitives):

              1. Geteld

              2. Viking wedge

              3. Saxon-Norman wedge

              4. Double bell wedge

              Alternative:

              I presently have a nylon Finn MacCoul wedge. (You
              know how if the wind was coming from the wrong
              direction, Finn would pick up his house and turn it
              around? My tent has a free-standing frame, so it can
              be moved after being set up.) I have been thinking
              about replacing the rain fly with a woolen cover, thus
              disguising it as a period shelter. Either staking it
              at the bottom (reinforced holes or loops for the
              stakes?) or making a sleeve for a 2x4, like the Viking
              wedge.

              So I am inviting suggestions, criticisms, cautions,
              points to ponder...I am not in love with any of these
              choices, so feel free to tell me what's wrong with
              them - you won't hurt my feelings. I'm looking at
              authenticity, appropriateness, ease of set-up (I will
              most often be camping by myself), comfort, livability,
              and weather resistance. I can afford any of the tents
              I mentioned, so while cheaper means more to spend on
              some other element of kit, better is worth spending
              more.

              What do you think? Thank you for your suggestions.

              Andrea
              aka Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt





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            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              ... SNIP ... If you need translation help, i can read French, and i know there are several others on this list who can as well... -- Urtatim (that s
              Message 6 of 14 , Aug 26, 2005
                Margaret wrote:
                >--- Karen <karen_larsdatter@y...> wrote:
                > > BNF Richelieu MS Latin 9333 -- online at
                > > http://gallica.bnf.fr/notice?N=MAN01940
                > > is a manuscript of the Tacuinum Sanitatis,
                > >which describes the scientific nature of many
                > > different things, from linen fabric to camel meat.
                > > (It was a translation of an earlier Arabic book.)
                > >
                > > For more information about the Tacuinum Sanitatis,
                > > and illustrations from other editions, see
                > > http://www.godecookery.com/tacuin/tacuin.htm
                >
                >Ohhhhhkayyyyyyy - couldn't read all the French - that makes more
                >sense now, because I couldn't figure out why there were Arabic words
                >in the original French description
                SNIP
                >Thanks for pointing that out...
                >
                >The version that's on the Bibliotheque nationale does show 205
                >illustrations, though......but the Gode Cookery site has the
                >translations for the 48 it shows.

                If you need translation help, i can read French, and i know there are
                several others on this list who can as well...
                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • Pete McKee
                ... You will not be disappointed in the quality and durability of any Panther shelter you purchase. Given, of course it is stored properly when not in use.
                Message 7 of 14 , Aug 26, 2005
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                  <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Choices (all available from Panther Primitives):
                  >
                  > 1. Geteld
                  >
                  > 2. Viking wedge
                  >
                  > 3. Saxon-Norman wedge
                  >
                  > 4. Double bell wedge
                  >
                  You will not be disappointed in the quality and durability of any
                  Panther shelter you purchase. Given, of course it is stored
                  properly when not in use. Any of these designs will require a
                  second person to hold the uprights in position while the corners are
                  pegged down. With practice, you can learn to do it by yourself, but
                  I've never been to an historical encampment where I was not offered
                  help in setting up my shelter. The shaped ends on the geteld and
                  the double bell wedge will give you more floor space. You will have
                  to get used to the uprights being in your living space though. The
                  Saxon-Norman wedge has less floor space, but the uprights are at the
                  end, in the middle of your door. The Viking wedge also has the
                  lesser amount of floor space, but there are no uprights in your door
                  or living space. The disadvantage I see with that is that it
                  requires more lumber. I have no experience with the Viking style,
                  so I don't know how it would be to set up and take down. Sure does
                  look neat though!

                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                  <huwydd@y...> wrote:

                  > Alternative:
                  >
                  My tent has a free-standing frame, so it can
                  > be moved after being set up.) I have been thinking
                  > about replacing the rain fly with a woolen cover, thus
                  > disguising it as a period shelter.
                  >
                  My first thought was to launch into my don't waste any time, money,
                  or thought in disguiseing any modern thing speech. But, I am
                  presuming that you would also drape a period fabric over the ends of
                  this cover to further hide your nylon tent. If that is the case,
                  just get rid of the nylon tent, and you have an open ended wedge, a
                  perfectly period shelter! It will take a lot of trial and error, I
                  think, to find a wool fabric that will perform satisfactorily in
                  keeping out the rain. I would suggest hemp, linen, or cotton canvas
                  over wool, mostly because I don't have the experience with wool
                  shelter coverings. The secret to a shelter of this type is to keep
                  the angle steep and the fabric taut.

                  Hope this helps some.

                  Take care,
                  Pete McKee
                • d_archambeaux
                  ... I ve got no expierence with the Panther Viking, but with our household s home made Norse A-frames I can set up an entire household encampment in less than
                  Message 8 of 14 , Aug 26, 2005
                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Pete McKee" <p_mckee3@y...> >


                    > The Viking wedge also has the
                    > lesser amount of floor space, but there are no uprights in your door
                    > or living space. The disadvantage I see with that is that it
                    > requires more lumber. I have no experience with the Viking style,
                    > so I don't know how it would be to set up and take down. Sure does
                    > look neat though!

                    I've got no expierence with the Panther Viking, but
                    with our household's home made Norse A-frames I can
                    set up an entire household encampment in less than an hour.
                    That's at least 4 tents, and up to 10 depending on turn out.

                    With 2 people it takes less than 5 minuites per tent.

                    Ercole
                  • Jerry
                    ... Well i just got my tent in from Panther and i must say they are a great company. fast and friendly and the tent is awsome. However as i did not got with
                    Message 9 of 14 , Aug 26, 2005
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                      <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > 1. Geteld
                      > 2. Viking wedge
                      > 3. Saxon-Norman wedge
                      > 4. Double bell wedge

                      Well i just got my tent in from Panther and i must say they are a
                      great company. fast and friendly and the tent is awsome. However
                      as i did not got with any of the tents you mention i can not speak
                      knowledgably of any of them.

                      However i have seen a viking wedge and i think it is a very nice
                      tent. Perhaps a bit more to lug around than the others though. I
                      had actually given it some thought, but since i play 15th cen.
                      English it would really not fit my persona. The tent is tall enough
                      to stand in which is a nice plus. The bottom runner make it good
                      and stable, which in a tent is a huge plus. You could easily make
                      dragon heads that fit over the beams. Sort of like a cap, so you
                      can remove them for transport.

                      Another nice thing is since most of the beams dont really show, you
                      can make break downs. I dont think it would be hard to do, and if
                      you do it right they would be plenety strong enough.
                    • Despair Bear
                      ... My wife and I use a getegeteldbuild our selves using fabric we scavscavengedm a french bell wedge. Our demedimensions about 16l x10w x 12t, plenty big for
                      Message 10 of 14 , Aug 26, 2005
                        >
                        > Choices (all available from Panther Primitives):
                        >
                        > 1. GeteGeteld
                        > 2. Viking wedge
                        >
                        > 3. Saxon-Norman wedge
                        >
                        > 4. Double bell wedge
                        >

                        My wife and I use a getegeteldbuild our selves using
                        fabric we scavscavengedm a french bell wedge. Our
                        demedimensions about 16l x10w x 12t, plenty big for
                        two of us and our 2 cats. We have found that the
                        getegetelds up easy with two people but it would be
                        quite hard if not impossible with one. We do not water
                        proof our fabric so that it will breath on hot days
                        and nights, and it has been lovely even in 100+ deg.
                        weather. When it rains the angle of the fabric keeps
                        water from pooling and so it just sheets off with no
                        drips or puddles. When it rains REALLY hard
                        (estrestrellans, I mean downdownrs) there is a little
                        "misting" on the inside of the tent, this has only
                        happened once and I have never seen rain like that in
                        my life, it was a cloud burst. We have also had very
                        good luck with highish winds, nothing hurihurricaneel
                        but as strong as I think you will find in normal life
                        (30 mph gusts). Over all we love our tent but there
                        are some potential problems; you must be able to use
                        ground steaks (sp?)spo it can not be set up on
                        pavement. Also the poles are quite long and must be
                        tied onto the roof of our van. And lastly the tent
                        does not "seal" so there are gaps at the doors which
                        could let in critters, not a problem for us but could
                        be for some people.

                        Hope that helps.


                        GodrGodricCastCastlemont



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                      • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                        ... Any of these designs will ... Absolutely. But it s much easier to get a helpful neighbor to hold the uprights for five minutes than perform an hour s
                        Message 11 of 14 , Aug 28, 2005
                          --- Pete McKee <p_mckee3@...> wrote:


                          Any of these designs will
                          > require a
                          > second person to hold the uprights in position while
                          > the corners are
                          > pegged down. With practice, you can learn to do it
                          > by yourself, but
                          > I've never been to an historical encampment where I
                          > was not offered
                          > help in setting up my shelter.

                          Absolutely. But it's much easier to get a helpful
                          neighbor to hold the uprights for five minutes than
                          perform an hour's worth of complicated manipulations.

                          The shaped ends on
                          > the geteld and
                          > the double bell wedge will give you more floor
                          > space. You will have
                          > to get used to the uprights being in your living
                          > space though.

                          I'm already used to cats, drying racks, and piles of
                          books in my living space. I'll cope.


                          I have no experience with the
                          > Viking style,
                          > so I don't know how it would be to set up and take
                          > down. Sure does
                          > look neat though!

                          Doesn't it? But the fact that I would have to make my
                          own poles is rather daunting.

                          So I think I've narrowed it down to geteld or
                          double-bell wedge. How far back is the latter either
                          proven or probable for northern/western Europe? When
                          did they start putting dagging on tents? And is the
                          attached dining fly period?

                          > >
                          > My first thought was to launch into my don't waste
                          > any time, money,
                          > or thought in disguiseing any modern thing speech.
                          > But, I am
                          > presuming that you would also drape a period fabric
                          > over the ends of
                          > this cover to further hide your nylon tent. If that
                          > is the case,
                          > just get rid of the nylon tent, and you have an open
                          > ended wedge, a
                          > perfectly period shelter!

                          Well....the point of the nylon tent is that I am
                          squeamish about critters creeping under the edge of
                          the tent - sewn-in floors are my security blanket.

                          It will take a lot of
                          > trial and error, I
                          > think, to find a wool fabric that will perform
                          > satisfactorily in
                          > keeping out the rain.

                          The other argument for keeping the nylon tent
                          underneath until I get the wool right.

                          I would suggest hemp, linen,
                          > or cotton canvas
                          > over wool, mostly because I don't have the
                          > experience with wool
                          > shelter coverings. The secret to a shelter of this
                          > type is to keep
                          > the angle steep and the fabric taut.

                          I am visualizing well-fulled wool which would be less
                          likely to ravel, thus allowing simple lapped seams as
                          opposed to flat-felled or something similar. My
                          sewing machine is unlikely to be happy about sewing
                          tent-weight canvas, I suspect.

                          And the idea is to approach a period tent by
                          successive approximations. This year I cover the
                          nylon with wool, next year I make the appropriate
                          corrections to the wool cover, add a ground cloth and
                          floor, thus permitting me to ditch the nylon, and a
                          year or two after that manage to replace the modern
                          frame with wooden poles. I know that if I start out
                          to make my own tent from scratch, the very idea will
                          be so overwhelming I'll never get around to it.

                          Whereas the reason for wool is to have an authentic
                          fabric as opposed to cotton canvas masquerading as
                          linen. I don't know if it is practical, but the
                          concept is very appealing.
                          >
                          > Hope this helps some.

                          Your comments have in fact been very helpful. Thank
                          you much.

                          Andrea
                          aka Gwervyl verch Hywel Gwyddwyllt

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                        • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                          ... It does indeed. This is just what I was hoping for is the advantages and otherwise based on other people s experience. Thank you. Andrea
                          Message 12 of 14 , Aug 28, 2005
                            --- Despair Bear <despairbear@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > My wife and I use a getegeteldbuild our selves using
                            > fabric we scavscavengedm a french bell wedge. Our
                            > demedimensions about 16l x10w x 12t, plenty big for
                            > two of us and our 2 cats. We have found that the
                            > getegetelds up easy with two people but it would be
                            > quite hard if not impossible with one. We do not
                            > water
                            > proof our fabric so that it will breath on hot days
                            > and nights, and it has been lovely even in 100+ deg.
                            > weather. When it rains the angle of the fabric keeps
                            > water from pooling and so it just sheets off with no
                            > drips or puddles. When it rains REALLY hard
                            > (estrestrellans, I mean downdownrs) there is a
                            > little
                            > "misting" on the inside of the tent, this has only
                            > happened once and I have never seen rain like that
                            > in
                            > my life, it was a cloud burst. We have also had very
                            > good luck with highish winds, nothing
                            > hurihurricaneel
                            > but as strong as I think you will find in normal
                            > life
                            > (30 mph gusts). Over all we love our tent but there
                            > are some potential problems; you must be able to use
                            > ground steaks (sp?)spo it can not be set up on
                            > pavement. Also the poles are quite long and must be
                            > tied onto the roof of our van. And lastly the tent
                            > does not "seal" so there are gaps at the doors which
                            > could let in critters, not a problem for us but
                            > could
                            > be for some people.
                            >
                            > Hope that helps.

                            It does indeed. This is just what I was hoping for is
                            the advantages and otherwise based on other people's
                            experience. Thank you.

                            Andrea

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                          • Pete McKee
                            ... My research only goes back to the 16th century, not far enough to answer your question. What I have seen is always in a military context. There are lots
                            Message 13 of 14 , Aug 28, 2005
                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                              <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                              >

                              > So I think I've narrowed it down to geteld or
                              > double-bell wedge. How far back is the latter either
                              > proven or probable for northern/western Europe? When
                              > did they start putting dagging on tents? And is the
                              > attached dining fly period?
                              >

                              My research only goes back to the 16th century, not far enough to
                              answer your question. What I have seen is always in a military
                              context. There are lots of pointy topped round pavilions, many seem
                              only large enough for one person. More plain, straight sided wall
                              tents than I would expect. Some wall tents with angled walls. Some
                              plain, flat ended wedge tents. A lot of wedges that seem to have
                              the geteld profile without the ridge pole sleeve at the top. A few
                              that may be double belled wedges, at least the door is in the center
                              of the wall, not the end. Of course, my favorites are the guys
                              digging pits with lean-tos over them covered with boards, sod or
                              thatch. Nearly all of the tents are decorated in some way. Nearly
                              all painted, a lot with the scalloped dagging in various places.
                              I've come to believe that the attatched dining fly is a modern
                              reenactorism.
                              >
                              > Well....the point of the nylon tent is that I am
                              > squeamish about critters creeping under the edge of
                              > the tent - sewn-in floors are my security blanket.
                              >
                              Fair warning!! NONE of these tents has an attatched floor! If you
                              are wedded to that concept, you're best off making your own. Most
                              of Panthers tents can be made with what they call a sod cloth. It's
                              a flap of cloth at the bottom of the walls that folds to the inside
                              and is covered with a separate canvas floor tarp. By way of
                              reassurance, most of my camping experience (half a centurys worth)
                              has been in floorless tents or under the stars, mostly in wilderness
                              conditions. In all that time, only once have I had a critter in the
                              tent with me. I was in the army and reached into my canteen cup to
                              get the half a candy bar I had left there, and picked up a field
                              mouse instead. My fault for leaving open food out.

                              >
                              > And the idea is to approach a period tent by
                              > successive approximations. This year I cover the
                              > nylon with wool, next year I make the appropriate
                              > corrections to the wool cover, add a ground cloth and
                              > floor, thus permitting me to ditch the nylon, and a
                              > year or two after that manage to replace the modern
                              > frame with wooden poles. I know that if I start out
                              > to make my own tent from scratch, the very idea will
                              > be so overwhelming I'll never get around to it.
                              >
                              > Whereas the reason for wool is to have an authentic
                              > fabric as opposed to cotton canvas masquerading as
                              > linen. I don't know if it is practical, but the
                              > concept is very appealing.
                              > >
                              The more I think about it, the more I like it too. If you decide to
                              go that route, I suggest that you skip the part about draping the
                              wool fabric over the same frame that supports your nylon tent and
                              rain fly. I believe that you'll only end up with some contrived
                              looking gizmo. Instead, make a separate frame for your wool
                              covering. It's simpler than it sounds. All you need is a pair of
                              round wooden closet rods tall enough to get your covering off of
                              your tent and fly. These are your uprights. Get a 1X1 square bit
                              of lumber longer than your modern rig. This is your ridgepole. You
                              can paint these to protect them from the elements. Bake a batch of
                              cookies and get your favorite handyman to put a metal pin into one
                              end of each of your round uprights. Then, drill a hole into one of
                              the flats of each end of the ridgepole to recieve the pins. Make
                              sure there is room between your uprights to put your modern tent.
                              Make sure the pins do not extend above the ridgepole, or they will
                              cut your fabric. Now go about experimenting with the wool fabric as
                              you described. You'll have a tent within a tent, neither of them
                              dependant on the other. Until you find a wool fabric that works,
                              you can drape a woolen blanket or other period cloth over the ends
                              to further disguise the modern tent inside. I wouldn't worry about
                              doors until you have the right fabric. You will need to come up
                              with some system to hold the ridgeline of the fabric to the
                              ridgepole. Otherwise, a gust of wind will billow the fabric and
                              drop your wooden poles. The ridge sleeve on the geteld looks like
                              just the thing to me. Once you have the right fabric, a couple of
                              triangular door sections at each end will give you a woolen geteld,
                              or if you prefer, a flat ended wedge. Hope that helped.

                              Take care,
                              Pete Mckee
                            • Heather Rose Jones
                              ... This thread kick-started me to get my article on medieval Welsh references to tents and other temporary shelters onto my web page. It can be found
                              Message 14 of 14 , Sep 3, 2005
                                At 5:57 AM -0700 8/26/05, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:
                                >Now that the summer camping season is over (alas, for
                                >mundane personal reasons I was unable to do anything
                                >medieval....) I'm thinking about next year, and what I
                                >want to do for a tent. I'm leaning toward a wedge,
                                >but there seem to be a number of possibilities in that
                                >line. I want something authentic for 10th-13th
                                >century Gwynnedd, which given the evidence (I think it
                                >can be summarized as "They had tents.")

                                <snip>

                                This thread kick-started me to get my article on medieval Welsh
                                references to tents and other temporary shelters onto my web page.
                                It can be found at:

                                <http://www.heatherrosejones.com/simplearticles/welshtents.html>

                                (Or, if I've screwed that up somehow, just go to the "what's new"
                                page from my homepage.)

                                As you note above, it doesn't have a great deal of practical hands-on
                                information, but it provides a certain amount of historic context.

                                Tangwystyl
                                --
                                *****
                                Heather Rose Jones
                                heather.jones@...
                                <http://heatherrosejones.com>
                                *****
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