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"Need" (was: authenticity)

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  • Marc Carlson
    I m going back over my email for the weekend, and I think I need to explain something more clearly. Last week, I put the word need in quotes, and I wanted
    Message 1 of 25 , Aug 1 10:07 AM
      I'm going back over my email for the weekend, and I think I need to
      explain something more clearly. Last week, I put the word 'need' in
      quotes, and I wanted to be clear and explicit what I meant by that.
      That way those folks who want to be upset about it will be able to do
      so with a clear conscience, and those who don't won't be :)

      When I was a child, I was taught to be very explicit with words, and
      to try to convey the actual meaning of what I want to say. For those
      who've seen me get into disagreements over the years, this is why I
      get very frustrated when I am incapable of getting my meaning across.
      One of the principle terms I was taught to be very careful about is
      the word "need." Many people confuse the word "need" with words
      like "want", "really think would be useful and convenient" and so on.
      Others often base "need" on differing assumptions of how great that
      need is.

      Since we were discussing eyeglasses, the assumption of what
      constitutes "need" is going to vary. For example, I have poor vision
      (better than some, worse than others). I can not see clearly across a
      room without glasses, and get a little isolated and frustrated when I
      can't see what's happening at a distance. Wearing my glasses doesn't
      actually help me avoid holes when I'm walking, since I'm just as
      likely to miss noticing them when I'm walking along with them as
      without them. Therefore I –need- them to see across the room, but I
      can choose to live without that luxury if it will help my accuracy
      experience. After all, there were people in the middle ages whose
      eyesight was as bad, or worse than mine, and they got along fairly
      well. I –need- them to drive because I'll get pulled over without
      them, and it does make seeing those pesky stoplights possible (and
      since driving a car isn't a medieval activity, that's not a problem
      with my accuracy experience).

      But for the most part, I "need" things like oxygen, water, occasional
      feeding, and to a lesser degree safety, love, respect,
      self-fulfillment, and so forth (although I can go for surprising
      lengths of time without all of those except oxygen). Most everything
      else are desires, not needs.

      When I see people use the word "need", it seems to me that they are
      meaning that it is a requirement to maintain their quality of life at
      a comfortable and convenient level, as opposed to they are required to
      have whatever in order to make something specific possible, or because
      without it they will die.

      I take medications that keep my stomach from giving me huge pain, and
      others that keep my blood pressure down. Do I –need- those?
      Technically no, I can go for days at a time without them, although
      this does cause some discomfort. I take them regularly because I
      prefer to not yack bloody hydrochloric acid, and having blood pressure
      numbers higher than my IQ is cool occasionally, but it makes my Doctor
      give me –that- look. Need, no.
      Want to keep my life comfortable, yes.

      Now, I'm positive that some of you will disagree with this extreme of
      definition, and that's fine. People are not actually –required- to
      agree with me. I just wanted to be clear that when –I- use the term,
      this is what I mean.

      I'm not disagreeing that your desires and wants are critical to you
      and perfectly valid. I'm just being pedantic about your use of terms :)

      Marc/Diarmaid
    • Amy Heilveil
      ... Works for me. I need water to survive. I need pure, clean, clear water to be healthy. I do not need pure, clean, clear water to live because one can live
      Message 2 of 25 , Aug 1 10:20 AM
        > I'm not disagreeing that your desires and wants are critical to you
        > and perfectly valid. I'm just being pedantic about your use of terms :)
        >
        > Marc/Diarmaid

        Works for me. I need water to survive. I need pure, clean, clear
        water to be healthy. I do not need pure, clean, clear water to live
        because one can live on brackish and icky water. I do prefer my water
        clean and pure though and I will most likely live longer because I
        drink it rather than brackish or germ-laden water.

        I frequently remind myself the difference between need and want. It's
        can be very large but it's easy to spot when I ask myself several
        basic questions, such as "will I actually physically cease to exsist
        without this?", etc.

        In the case of items for SCA use, well, those are wants. Every single
        one of them. It is possible to need item X in order to perform task
        Y, but that is a need with a single purpose and I, again, usually will
        not literally die if I do not obtain item X or perform task Y.

        Smiles,
        Despina de la seperation of needs and wants is important
      • Laura Morgan
        Gotcha. need = bee sting kit in pouch for a severely allergic person want = asprin for dealing with crazy people nice to have because life is much more
        Message 3 of 25 , Aug 1 10:33 AM
          Gotcha.

          "need" = bee sting kit in pouch for a severely allergic person
          "want" = asprin for dealing with crazy people
          "nice to have because life is much more pleasant and I am a nicer person when I have them"= claritin pills

          Laura



          Marc Carlson <marccarlson20@...> wrote:

          When I was a child, I was taught to be very explicit with words, and
          to try to convey the actual meaning of what I want to say.

          Laura Morgan
          with Aubrey & Booga





          ---------------------------------
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          Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Terri Morgan
          Marc, thanks for the laugh. As I was reading your post, I distinctly heard my Grandmother s voice saying, You don t _need_ that new dress for church, you
          Message 4 of 25 , Aug 1 10:41 AM
            Marc, thanks for the laugh. As I was reading your post, I distinctly heard
            my Grandmother's voice saying, "You don't _need_ that new dress for church,
            you _want_ that new dress for church. There's a difference. Be exact. If you
            have difficulty remembering the difference between "want" and "need" I can
            spend part of this visit denying you thing you need until you understand the
            difference. . . . but you wouldn't "want" that, would you, child?"


            Every once in a while, it's good to hear a voice from the past. Especially
            since that Grandmother is the one who taught me to sew and embroider
            (beginning at age 3) and I will be thinking of her as I get back to
            handstitching my gown after I clear the email inbox. So thank you twice.



            Hrothny
          • Marc Carlson
            ... My pleasure. And actually, I blame my grandmother for a lot of how I deal with the world (for example, once I taught myself to read, I asked her what a
            Message 5 of 25 , Aug 1 11:08 AM
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Terri Morgan"
              <nothingbutadame@i...> wrote:
              > Marc, thanks for the laugh. As I was reading your post...

              My pleasure. And actually, I blame my grandmother for a lot of how I
              deal with the world (for example, once I taught myself to read, I
              asked her what a word meant, she showed me the dictionary and would
              never after that tell me what a word meant). Of course my grandmother
              also had a lot in common with Slappy Squirrel...

              Marc/Diarmaid
            • Heather M
              ... Understood here, anyway. I need corrective lenses in order to function. I would wear contacts, but my allergies this year are ferocious, and it makes
              Message 6 of 25 , Aug 1 11:32 AM
                Marc Carlson wrote:

                > I'm going back over my email for the weekend, and I think I need to
                > explain something more clearly. Last week, I put the word 'need' in
                > quotes, and I wanted to be clear and explicit what I meant by that.
                > That way those folks who want to be upset about it will be able to do
                > so with a clear conscience, and those who don't won't be :)
                >
                > When I was a child, I was taught to be very explicit with words, and
                > to try to convey the actual meaning of what I want to say. For those
                > who've seen me get into disagreements over the years, this is why I
                > get very frustrated when I am incapable of getting my meaning across.
                > One of the principle terms I was taught to be very careful about is
                > the word "need." Many people confuse the word "need" with words
                > like "want", "really think would be useful and convenient" and so on.
                > Others often base "need" on differing assumptions of how great that
                > need is.
                >
                > Since we were discussing eyeglasses, the assumption of what
                > constitutes "need" is going to vary. For example, I have poor vision
                > (better than some, worse than others). I can not see clearly across a
                > room without glasses, and get a little isolated and frustrated when I
                > can't see what's happening at a distance. Wearing my glasses doesn't
                > actually help me avoid holes when I'm walking, since I'm just as
                > likely to miss noticing them when I'm walking along with them as
                > without them. Therefore I –need- them to see across the room, but I
                > can choose to live without that luxury if it will help my accuracy
                > experience. After all, there were people in the middle ages whose
                > eyesight was as bad, or worse than mine, and they got along fairly
                > well. I –need- them to drive because I'll get pulled over without
                > them, and it does make seeing those pesky stoplights possible (and
                > since driving a car isn't a medieval activity, that's not a problem
                > with my accuracy experience).
                >
                > But for the most part, I "need" things like oxygen, water, occasional
                > feeding, and to a lesser degree safety, love, respect,
                > self-fulfillment, and so forth (although I can go for surprising
                > lengths of time without all of those except oxygen). Most everything
                > else are desires, not needs.
                >
                > When I see people use the word "need", it seems to me that they are
                > meaning that it is a requirement to maintain their quality of life at
                > a comfortable and convenient level, as opposed to they are required to
                > have whatever in order to make something specific possible, or because
                > without it they will die.
                >
                > I take medications that keep my stomach from giving me huge pain, and
                > others that keep my blood pressure down. Do I –need- those?
                > Technically no, I can go for days at a time without them, although
                > this does cause some discomfort. I take them regularly because I
                > prefer to not yack bloody hydrochloric acid, and having blood pressure
                > numbers higher than my IQ is cool occasionally, but it makes my Doctor
                > give me –that- look. Need, no.
                > Want to keep my life comfortable, yes.
                >
                > Now, I'm positive that some of you will disagree with this extreme of
                > definition, and that's fine. People are not actually –required- to
                > agree with me. I just wanted to be clear that when –I- use the term,
                > this is what I mean.
                >
                > I'm not disagreeing that your desires and wants are critical to you
                > and perfectly valid. I'm just being pedantic about your use of terms :)
                >
                > Marc/Diarmaid

                Understood here, anyway.

                I "need" corrective lenses in order to function. I would wear contacts,
                but my allergies this year are ferocious, and it makes wearing them very
                painful, so I needs must wear my wire rim glasses. I would harm myself
                and/or others if I didn't.

                This year, for the first time, I'm also finding that I need polarized
                sunglasses - again, the allergies thing. My eyes are more photosensitive
                then they ought to be, and in bright sunlight my eyes tear up so much
                that I can't see where I'm going, even when wearing a wide-brimmed hat.
                At that point, I'm a danger to at least myself. Yes, I'm starting to get
                care that should start minimizing the problem, but at present, well. I'm
                looking forward to wearing contacts again. It'll be lovely. I'm also
                looking forward to not needing the sunglasses to be able to use my eyes
                on a sunny day.

                Until something interferes with my doing basic functions, like walking
                and avoiding holes, people, and other obstacles, it's a want. I try to
                tell myself this in the wool section of the fabric store all the time,
                and sometimes I even listen.

                However - and I'm not saying I've seen you say this, Diarmaid, I'm just
                commenting in general - grumbling about someone's metal walker or even
                knee brace is IMO beyond the pale. Eyeglasses can be equivalent to
                either decorative canes or necessary motor scooters for vision, and
                commenting about it when one doesn't know which is more than rude, it's
                also tacky.

                Margaret Northwode, who is on occasion, tacky herself.
              • Maggie Forest
                ... Including playing SCA and wanting an authentic experience . The definition of need must by its very definition be modified by the purpose of the
                Message 7 of 25 , Aug 1 2:04 PM
                  >In the case of items for SCA use, well, those are wants. Every single
                  >one of them.

                  Including 'playing SCA' and 'wanting an authentic experience'. The
                  definition of "need" must by its very definition be modified by the
                  purpose of the exercise. It is not at all wrong to say 'I need
                  glasses' if you complete the sentence with '...to enjoy going to SCA
                  events'. You could also say 'I need to not wear my glasses to enjoy
                  going to SCA events''.

                  Me, my focal point is literally 2 inches in front of my eyes. I cannot
                  recognize people whose faces I could touch if I do not wear glasses.
                  If I try to interact with them, i.e. maintain some semblance of eye
                  contact while speaking to them at, for example, a demo, I get a
                  migraine within ten minutes. Thus, I cannot feel productive at a demo
                  without my glasses.

                  I can however walk through a room in complete darkness without
                  hurting myself, as long as I've been in there once before. Thus all
                  these statements are correct:

                  "I do not need glasses" (...to survive)
                  "I do need glasses" (...to do SCA or demos and be able to function
                  satisfactorily)
                  "I do not need to do SCA or demos"
                  "I do need glasses to achieve what I _want_ from SCA or demos"

                  Other people wish to achieve other things than I do, and so their
                  statements will vary accordingly.

                  It would be really useful if people could qualify their needs, since
                  that could perhaps stop us from exploding into meta discussions so
                  often, but I'm not holding out much hope...

                  /maggie
                • Adele de Maisieres
                  ... Actually, when I say that I need my glasses at events, what I mean is that I can t really participate at a meaningful level without them. The period
                  Message 8 of 25 , Aug 1 2:29 PM
                    Marc Carlson wrote:

                    >When I see people use the word "need", it seems to me that they are
                    >meaning that it is a requirement to maintain their quality of life at
                    >a comfortable and convenient level, as opposed to they are required to
                    >have whatever in order to make something specific possible, or because
                    >without it they will die.
                    >
                    >

                    Actually, when I say that I "need" my glasses at events, what I mean is
                    that I can't really participate at a meaningful level without them. The
                    period activities that I enjoy are impossible without my glasses. I
                    can't read, sew or do any other hand work, cook, watch a tourney, go out
                    at night without a very real risk of hurting myself, or help anyone with
                    much of anything. It's not that I'll die without them-- it's that I
                    might as well stay home and only see my SCA friends in mundane settings
                    as go without them.

                    --
                    Adele de Maisieres

                    -----------------------------
                    Habeo metrum - musicamque,
                    hominem meam. Expectat alium quid?
                    -Georgeus Gershwinus
                    -----------------------------
                  • Sharon L. Krossa
                    ... Note, however, that that need is only for a specific purpose -- you need them _to use your eyes_. Do you need to use your eyes? Well, I expect (like
                    Message 9 of 25 , Aug 1 5:41 PM
                      At 1:32 PM -0500 8/1/05, Heather M wrote:
                      > > I'm not disagreeing that your desires and wants are critical to you
                      > > and perfectly valid. I'm just being pedantic about your use of terms :)
                      >
                      >Understood here, anyway.
                      >
                      >I "need" corrective lenses in order to function. I would wear contacts,
                      >but my allergies this year are ferocious, and it makes wearing them very
                      >painful, so I needs must wear my wire rim glasses. I would harm myself
                      >and/or others if I didn't.
                      >
                      >This year, for the first time, I'm also finding that I need polarized
                      >sunglasses - again, the allergies thing. My eyes are more photosensitive
                      >then they ought to be, and in bright sunlight my eyes tear up so much
                      >that I can't see where I'm going, even when wearing a wide-brimmed hat.
                      >At that point, I'm a danger to at least myself. Yes, I'm starting to get
                      >care that should start minimizing the problem, but at present, well. I'm
                      >looking forward to wearing contacts again. It'll be lovely. I'm also
                      >looking forward to not needing the sunglasses to be able to use my eyes
                      >on a sunny day.

                      Note, however, that that "need" is only for a specific purpose -- you
                      need them _to use your eyes_. Do you "need" to use your eyes? Well, I
                      expect (like most people) you want to, you prefer to, find life
                      easier and more enjoyable if you do, etc., but if push came to shove,
                      no, actually, you don't. We know this because there are actually
                      people who manage to not only live but function despite becoming
                      completely blind (both modernly and in the Middle Ages).

                      Does this mean you should go without your glasses in the SCA? No, not
                      necessarily -- it depends entirely on what you, personally, yourself
                      (and no one else) have as your priorities for your SCA experience.
                      Some people might find re-creating functional blindness in the Middle
                      Ages to be an interesting challenge. Others may not be the least bit
                      interested. That's fine -- it is entirely up to each individual to
                      choose what they want to re-create in the SCA.

                      But even for those who would be functionally blind without them,
                      wearing glasses remains a choice from among multiple options.

                      >However - and I'm not saying I've seen you say this, Diarmaid, I'm just
                      >commenting in general - grumbling about someone's metal walker or even
                      >knee brace is IMO beyond the pale.

                      So why then are you making this comment in general? No one in recent
                      discussions (or, to the best of my knowledge, ever on this list) has
                      grumbled about someone else's metal walker or knee brace or even
                      glasses -- nor is anyone likely to in the future.

                      Pointing out -- accurately and factually -- that using some modern
                      thing (whatever it is) is a choice and there are more authentic
                      options is not "grumbling" about someone's use of that modern thing
                      (whatever it is). There is no value judgement implied in such a
                      factual observation. And this is true whether that modern thing is a
                      wheelchair or a wrist watch.

                      It only becomes a value judgement, or "grumbling", if people say, in
                      so many words "No one should use wheelchairs in the SCA" or "It is
                      bad for anyone to use wheelchairs in the SCA" or the like. And,
                      again, no one has made any such statement in this discussion group
                      about wheelchairs, walkers, knee braces, glasses, etc., nor are they
                      likely to.

                      Affrick
                      --
                      Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                    • Marc Carlson
                      ... Absolutely. ... And THOSE I take before I go on site :) Marc
                      Message 10 of 25 , Aug 1 6:20 PM
                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Laura Morgan <valkerie1000@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > Gotcha.
                        > "need" = bee sting kit in pouch for a severely allergic person

                        Absolutely.

                        > "want" = asprin for dealing with crazy people
                        > "nice to have because life is much more pleasant and I am a nicer
                        > person when I have them"= claritin pills

                        And THOSE I take before I go on site :)

                        Marc
                      • Marc Carlson
                        ... Absolutely not. And if you ever see me stating that those are inappropriate for SCA events, -please- call me on it. Or for that matter, your glasses. ...
                        Message 11 of 25 , Aug 1 6:25 PM
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather M
                          <margaretnorthwode@f...> wrote:
                          > ...However - and I'm not saying I've seen you say this, Diarmaid, I'm
                          > just commenting in general - grumbling about someone's metal walker
                          > or even knee brace is IMO beyond the pale...

                          Absolutely not. And if you ever see me stating that those are
                          inappropriate for SCA events, -please- call me on it. Or for that
                          matter, your glasses.

                          > Eyeglasses can be equivalent to either decorative canes or necessary
                          > motor scooters for vision, and commenting about it when one doesn't
                          > know which is more than rude, it's also tacky.
                          > Margaret Northwode, who is on occasion, tacky herself.

                          Yup.

                          Marc/Diarmaid
                        • Marc Carlson
                          ... Going in a totally different direction with this (and in no way to suggest that anyone should do this); why would anyone -want- to do this? When I deal
                          Message 12 of 25 , Aug 1 7:02 PM
                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Sharon L. Krossa"
                            <skrossa-ml@M...> wrote:
                            > Does this mean you should go without your glasses in the SCA? No,
                            > not necessarily -- it depends entirely on what you, personally,
                            > yourself (and no one else) have as your priorities for your SCA
                            > experience. Some people might find re-creating functional blindness
                            > in the Middle Ages to be an interesting challenge. Others may not be
                            > the least bit interested. That's fine -- it is entirely up to each
                            > individual to choose what they want to re-create in the SCA...

                            Going in a totally different direction with this (and in no way to
                            suggest that anyone "should" do this); why would anyone -want- to do this?

                            When I deal with the past, what I want to do is to understand the
                            lives that those people lived, both bad as well as the good. I am
                            nearsighted (aka short sighted, both terms go back at least to the
                            early 1600s), but this is correctable with glasses so that under
                            modern conditions, my vision is not significantly worse than anyone
                            else's.

                            -Diarmaid- however, is not that lucky. His visual world is determined
                            by what he can see, and at events that's further than some, but not
                            further than others, but beyond about 30 feet there's nothing but a
                            solid blurry mass. Watching a tourney is meaningless. *I* keep track
                            of what's going around me by watching at a distance, he can't do this
                            (and this is the most difficult problem I have going without my
                            glasses). This gives me a hint of how people like me handled the
                            world without glasses and respect them more and honor them more for
                            that. Moreover, I would like to think that it gives me a hint of how
                            people who don't have the option of putting the glasses back on have
                            to live.

                            Marc/Diarmaid
                          • Heather M
                            ... Heh - I m a woman of strong opinions. Getting them across to anyone I ve every met isn t a problem, though I do tend to pick a good time. ... Margaret
                            Message 13 of 25 , Aug 2 7:40 AM
                              Marc Carlson wrote:

                              > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather M
                              > <margaretnorthwode@f...> wrote:
                              > > ...However - and I'm not saying I've seen you say this, Diarmaid, I'm
                              > > just commenting in general - grumbling about someone's metal walker
                              > > or even knee brace is IMO beyond the pale...
                              >
                              > Absolutely not. And if you ever see me stating that those are
                              > inappropriate for SCA events, -please- call me on it. Or for that
                              > matter, your glasses.

                              Heh - I'm a woman of strong opinions. Getting them across to anyone I've
                              every met isn't a problem, though I do tend to pick a good time.

                              > > Eyeglasses can be equivalent to either decorative canes or necessary
                              > > motor scooters for vision, and commenting about it when one doesn't
                              > > know which is more than rude, it's also tacky.
                              > > Margaret Northwode, who is on occasion, tacky herself.
                              >
                              > Yup.
                              >
                              > Marc/Diarmaid

                              ::insert beam-in-my-own eye reference with light chagrin::

                              Margaret Northwode
                            • Marc Carlson
                              ... wrote: ... Is there ever really a good time to tell someone that they are acting like a shmuck? Marc/Diarmaid
                              Message 14 of 25 , Aug 2 9:06 AM
                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather M
                                <margaretnorthwode@f...> wrote:>
                                > Heh - I'm a woman of strong opinions. Getting them across to anyone
                                > I've every met isn't a problem, though I do tend to pick a good
                                > time.

                                Is there ever really a good time to tell someone that they are acting
                                like a shmuck?

                                Marc/Diarmaid
                              • Heather M
                                ... IME, only if you want them to actually pay attention to your words and not just get angry because you re dressing them down in public. It also depends on
                                Message 15 of 25 , Aug 2 9:24 AM
                                  Marc Carlson wrote:

                                  > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather M
                                  > <margaretnorthwode@f...> wrote:>
                                  > > Heh - I'm a woman of strong opinions. Getting them across to anyone
                                  > > I've every met isn't a problem, though I do tend to pick a good
                                  > > time.
                                  >
                                  > Is there ever really a good time to tell someone that they are acting
                                  > like a shmuck?
                                  >
                                  > Marc/Diarmaid

                                  IME, only if you want them to actually pay attention to your words and
                                  not just get angry because you're dressing them down in public. It also
                                  depends on the person, and how well I know them. Some I know respond
                                  better to that sort of conversation/statement in private, others don't
                                  care either way. Note that it's possible to do so in a low voice in
                                  public, too.

                                  Soooo, if I want to really try to point out to them that a change of
                                  attitude might be needed, I try to do so as privately as possible.
                                  Otherwise, it can come across as something that's not so much "Hey,
                                  you're probably an okay person but that came across to portray you as a
                                  jerk," but instead something that belongs in the first five minutes of
                                  Jerry Springer - attack without any point other than attack.

                                  Margaret Northwode
                                • Heather M
                                  ... I m boggled by your attitude as relayed here. By your logic, prosthetic limbs are not a need, because one could live without them. After all, people in
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Aug 2 2:30 PM
                                    Sharon L. Krossa wrote:

                                    > <snip>
                                    > Note, however, that that "need" is only for a specific purpose -- you
                                    > need them _to use your eyes_. Do you "need" to use your eyes? Well, I
                                    > expect (like most people) you want to, you prefer to, find life
                                    > easier and more enjoyable if you do, etc., but if push came to shove,
                                    > no, actually, you don't. We know this because there are actually
                                    > people who manage to not only live but function despite becoming
                                    > completely blind (both modernly and in the Middle Ages).

                                    I'm boggled by your attitude as relayed here. By your logic, prosthetic
                                    limbs are not a "need," because one could live without them. After all,
                                    people in the Middle Ages and modernly live without them, so therefore I
                                    can, too? I know you're talking about glasses. They seem to you
                                    something optional, but for me and many others, they are the direct
                                    equivalent of prosthetic eyes.

                                    > <snip>
                                    > But even for those who would be functionally blind without them,
                                    > wearing glasses remains a choice from among multiple options.

                                    It's interesting that you seem to feel that way. For many, this is the
                                    choice between looking period with migraines, loss of depth perception,
                                    and bad vision (to just touch the tip of the iceberg), and wearing
                                    glasses. And those effects? They don't go away and you don't "get used
                                    to them" if you opt to use your lenses less often.

                                    > >However - and I'm not saying I've seen you say this, Diarmaid, I'm just
                                    > >commenting in general - grumbling about someone's metal walker or even
                                    > >knee brace is IMO beyond the pale.
                                    >
                                    > So why then are you making this comment in general? No one in recent
                                    > discussions (or, to the best of my knowledge, ever on this list) has
                                    > grumbled about someone else's metal walker or knee brace or even
                                    > glasses -- nor is anyone likely to in the future.

                                    I have personally run across conversations where similar statements were
                                    being made. I also make comparisons to my real-life experiences. I know
                                    local folks with handicaps who use various devices to move around. You
                                    would not believe the comments they've received that I've overheard, in
                                    that oh-so-subtle stage mutter that they're not supposed to hear, but
                                    really are. The only reason I didn't come up out of my chair was because
                                    the insulted person requested that I not - they were used to hearing it,
                                    and hadn't been able to change anyone's mind. I personally have not
                                    gotten flak about glasses that I've heard, but have followed threads on
                                    this list and others where folks were making nasty comments about modern
                                    contraptions used at events that make life possible and richer for those
                                    who require them. Yes. Even here. On glasses. To the point that I've
                                    almost stopped following these threads unless someone is actually
                                    talking about folks offering period glasses for sale.

                                    > Pointing out -- accurately and factually -- that using some modern
                                    > thing (whatever it is) is a choice and there are more authentic
                                    > options is not "grumbling" about someone's use of that modern thing
                                    > (whatever it is). There is no value judgement implied in such a
                                    > factual observation. And this is true whether that modern thing is a
                                    > wheelchair or a wrist watch.

                                    Yes, there is. I can sit near someone in Renn wench garb, and talk
                                    accurately and factually to you or anyone else about how her garb is in
                                    need of improvement and different from what history has left us evidence
                                    to see, and it's still a judgement and it's still tacky, for all that it
                                    may be true and accurate. Unasked for offered improvements to someone's
                                    SCA experience = snarking, Affrick, period. When you've already been
                                    offered their reasons to stick with what they're doing, and you continue
                                    to "suggest" that "there's a better way of doing it," your snarkiness
                                    increases by orders of magnitude.

                                    > It only becomes a value judgement, or "grumbling", if people say, in
                                    > so many words "No one should use wheelchairs in the SCA" or "It is
                                    > bad for anyone to use wheelchairs in the SCA" or the like. And,
                                    > again, no one has made any such statement in this discussion group
                                    > about wheelchairs, walkers, knee braces, glasses, etc., nor are they
                                    > likely to.
                                    >
                                    > Affrick
                                    > --
                                    > Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...

                                    You just made the comment, obliquely, by suggesting that using my
                                    prosthetic eyes is a choice somehow lesser than that of choosing to live
                                    with the consequences to me and others of not wearing them. This is a
                                    texy-only forum, though, and perhaps you didn't mean that - but it
                                    definitely reads that way.

                                    Margaret Northwode
                                  • Marc Carlson
                                    ... See, I find that all too often people will generally read (or hear) whatever words they want to read (or hear), disregarding what doesn t fit what they
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Aug 2 3:07 PM
                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather M
                                      <margaretnorthwode@f...> wrote:
                                      >> Is there ever really a good time to tell someone that they are
                                      >> acting like a shmuck?
                                      > IME, only if you want them to actually pay attention to your words
                                      > and not just get angry because you're dressing them down in public.

                                      See, I find that all too often people will generally read (or hear)
                                      whatever words they want to read (or hear), disregarding what doesn't
                                      fit what they wanted you to be saying, and inserting things that fit
                                      their pre-conceived notions. Which means that if you are going to be
                                      telling someone that you think they are behaving badly, they will
                                      _virtually_ never hear what you are trying to say, but rather will
                                      take it as an attack. Hence my question. If you're lucky, they'll
                                      actually get the point eventually, but it's almost certain that there
                                      will be embarrassment and/or hurt feelings first (unless, of course,
                                      you implied, you have a particular relationship with the accused).

                                      > Soooo, if I want to really try to point out to them that a change
                                      > of attitude might be needed, I try to do so as privately as
                                      > possible. Otherwise, it can come across as something that's not so
                                      > much "Hey, you're probably an okay person but that came across to
                                      > portray you as a jerk," but instead something that belongs in the
                                      > first five minutes of Jerry Springer - attack without any point
                                      > other than attack.

                                      For me I find that "are you -sure- that's how you wanted to say that,
                                      since it sounded to me like you were saying X" usually works fairly
                                      well -- particularly in private...

                                      Marc/Diarmaid
                                    • ketamina06
                                      ... you ... Well, I ... shove, ... prosthetic ... all, ... therefore I ... direct ... I ve been watching this conversation for the last few days and
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Aug 2 8:01 PM
                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather M
                                        <margaretnorthwode@f...> wrote:
                                        > Sharon L. Krossa wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > <snip>
                                        > > Note, however, that that "need" is only for a specific purpose --
                                        you
                                        > > need them _to use your eyes_. Do you "need" to use your eyes?
                                        Well, I
                                        > > expect (like most people) you want to, you prefer to, find life
                                        > > easier and more enjoyable if you do, etc., but if push came to
                                        shove,
                                        > > no, actually, you don't. We know this because there are actually
                                        > > people who manage to not only live but function despite becoming
                                        > > completely blind (both modernly and in the Middle Ages).
                                        >
                                        > I'm boggled by your attitude as relayed here. By your logic,
                                        prosthetic
                                        > limbs are not a "need," because one could live without them. After
                                        all,
                                        > people in the Middle Ages and modernly live without them, so
                                        therefore I
                                        > can, too? I know you're talking about glasses. They seem to you
                                        > something optional, but for me and many others, they are the
                                        direct
                                        > equivalent of prosthetic eyes.

                                        I've been watching this conversation for the last few days and
                                        restraining from commenting until now. I agree with Margaret here,
                                        in that this differentiation between need and want has gone off the
                                        deep end.

                                        Why do we do what we do in the SCA? Well, anyone that I've ever
                                        asked has put 'fun' in there somewhere. The SCA and things
                                        associated with it create some degree of happiness for us.

                                        Now, why would I NOT wear my glasses during an event? Well, after
                                        trying to NOT wear them once and getting a headache... and calling
                                        myself stupid for it, the only reason I could come up with is
                                        because I lost or misplaced them. I would find anyone looking down
                                        upon my attempt at authenticity because I'm wearing glasses very
                                        rude.

                                        Back to happiness. In strict reality, humans need few things to
                                        survive: air, food, water and protection from the elements. But to
                                        truly /live/, humans need to have some degree of happiness which of
                                        course can come from countless sources. In our case, the SCA is one
                                        of those sources, and for most members, some amount of authenticity.

                                        I realize that this is definitely a dead horse, but I must stress
                                        that it would be best if we were to base our 'need' on happiness,
                                        not just survival. If I didn't wear my glasses, I would be a small
                                        degree closer to authentic, but a high degree farther away from
                                        comfort and the need to SEE. Anyone wishing to compromise such needs
                                        in the interest of comfort and happiness should have their heads
                                        examined.

                                        Are there really members of this discussion list who think such
                                        compromises should be made? I don't really think so, and to see this
                                        discussion go as far as it has is kind of scary.

                                        L. Keterlyn, who actually based her last decision on what style of
                                        eyeglass frames to get on authenticity.
                                      • Greg Lindahl
                                        ... Cariadoc doesn t wear glasses at events -- but he doesn t get headaches from doing so. Nor does he comment on anyone else s choices to wear or not wear
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Aug 2 8:35 PM
                                          On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 03:01:48AM -0000, ketamina06 wrote:

                                          > Are there really members of this discussion list who think such
                                          > compromises should be made? I don't really think so, and to see this
                                          > discussion go as far as it has is kind of scary.

                                          Cariadoc doesn't wear glasses at events -- but he doesn't get
                                          headaches from doing so. Nor does he comment on anyone else's choices
                                          to wear or not wear their glasses.

                                          -- Gregory
                                        • Marc Carlson
                                          ... I certainly don t have a problem with headaches without my glasses, but what do I know, I obviously need to have my head examined since I m clearly willing
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Aug 2 8:56 PM
                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
                                            > On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 03:01:48AM -0000, ketamina06 wrote:
                                            >> Are there really members of this discussion list who think such
                                            >> compromises should be made? I don't really think so, and to see this
                                            >> discussion go as far as it has is kind of scary.
                                            > Cariadoc doesn't wear glasses at events -- but he doesn't get
                                            > headaches from doing so. Nor does he comment on anyone else's choices
                                            > to wear or not wear their glasses.

                                            I certainly don't have a problem with headaches without my glasses,
                                            but what do I know, I obviously need to have my head examined since
                                            I'm clearly willing to occasionally set aside mere comfort for my own
                                            personal goals of honoring those who've gone before...

                                            Marc/Diarmaid
                                          • Sharon L. Krossa
                                            ... What would be even more useful for avoiding exploding into meta discussions so often is if: 1) People would assume others are _not_ judging them (or anyone
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Aug 2 11:50 PM
                                              At 9:04 AM +1200 8/2/05, Maggie Forest wrote:
                                              >It would be really useful if people could qualify their needs, since
                                              >that could perhaps stop us from exploding into meta discussions so
                                              >often, but I'm not holding out much hope...

                                              What would be even more useful for avoiding exploding into meta
                                              discussions so often is if:

                                              1) People would assume others are _not_ judging them (or anyone
                                              else), instead of assuming they are.

                                              2) People would assume that if someone asks for suggestions on a
                                              mailing list called "Authentic_SCA", they are indeed asking for
                                              suggestions for what they could do to be more authentic, not asking
                                              for absolution or approval to just keep doing whatever less authentic
                                              thing they're already doing.

                                              Ewphrick
                                              --
                                              Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                                            • ketamina06
                                              ... this ... choices ... own ... For you it is comfort you set aside, and by doing so it apparently brings you some measure of pleasure and happiness the same
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Aug 3 6:36 AM
                                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson"
                                                <marccarlson20@h...> wrote:
                                                > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...>
                                                wrote:
                                                > > On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 03:01:48AM -0000, ketamina06 wrote:
                                                > >> Are there really members of this discussion list who think such
                                                > >> compromises should be made? I don't really think so, and to see
                                                this
                                                > >> discussion go as far as it has is kind of scary.
                                                > > Cariadoc doesn't wear glasses at events -- but he doesn't get
                                                > > headaches from doing so. Nor does he comment on anyone else's
                                                choices
                                                > > to wear or not wear their glasses.
                                                >
                                                > I certainly don't have a problem with headaches without my glasses,
                                                > but what do I know, I obviously need to have my head examined since
                                                > I'm clearly willing to occasionally set aside mere comfort for my
                                                own
                                                > personal goals of honoring those who've gone before...
                                                >
                                                > Marc/Diarmaid

                                                For you it is comfort you set aside, and by doing so it apparently
                                                brings you some measure of pleasure and happiness the same way hand-
                                                sewing a garment does to someone who normally uses a machine to do
                                                the work.

                                                But even for those who don't get headaches, who might instead feel
                                                they are endangering themselves or others or simply feel that not
                                                seeing what's going on around them clearly enough, is it wrong for
                                                them to not sacrifice their glasses? Do YOU view them as wrong, or
                                                as 'not going the extra step'? It's not as if they are carrying a
                                                purse or not making any attempt at proper dress (by proper dress, I
                                                mean anything aside from mundane clothing).

                                                Most people I personally know in the SCA spend time deciding how far
                                                they are willing to go, and weigh the happiness aspect. Many decide
                                                to keep their glasses, etc, because without them it would be a much
                                                less pleasurable experience.

                                                Is that so bad? I don't think so, and it doesn't make them any less
                                                deserving of rewards of effort toward authenticity.

                                                L. Keterlyn
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