Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: opinion question on use dates of period recipes

Expand Messages
  • Marc Carlson
    ... Interesting. (first let me note that I am not disagreeing with anything you are saying, or suggesting you are wrong, I m just seeing an interesting
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, jeffrey.heilveil@n... wrote:
      > the short answer is "no, I wouldn't be comfortable." Many of the
      > techniques used in cookery changed DRASTICALLY after 1500 (in the
      > more "fashionable" areas)...

      Interesting.

      (first let me note that I am not disagreeing with anything you are
      saying, or suggesting you are wrong, I'm just seeing an interesting
      parallel to another area, and where it stops being parallel)

      In shoemaking, based on what I can piece together, there was a similar
      shift in techniques after about 1500, this much is obvious. For me,
      using the 1688 techniques is the only way I've got to peer even
      further back and make sense of the sparse data.

      OTOH, in cooking there is more written information (not a huge amount
      more, but more) while with shoes, we have examples of some categories
      of footwear, so I can look at such and such a 1688 technique and say
      "yes, this tool or technique -could- produce that effect" or "no,
      that's not the result that's visible in the archaeology."

      In cooking, that's much harder since some tools and food processing
      techniques may be reflected in the archaeology, but nothow the
      finished food actually tasted :)

      Marc/Diarmaid
    • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
      ... Though far less important than taste, there s almost NO opportunity to see how a finished dish really looked in period. I mean, if there WERE leftovers
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
        > In cooking, that's much harder since some tools and food processing
        > techniques may be reflected in the archaeology, but nothow the
        > finished food actually tasted :)

        Though far less important than taste, there's almost NO opportunity to see
        how a finished dish really looked in period. I mean, if there WERE
        leftovers from so-an-so's coronation dinner, I know that _I_ wouldn't want
        to see them...

        Bogdan

        -----------------------------------------------------------
        Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
        Postdoctoral Fellow
        Department of Biological Sciences
        North Dakota State University
        Stevens Hall
        Fargo, ND 58105
        jeffrey.heilveil@...
      • Marion McNealy
        What? You re saying that you don t wish that there was a medieval Pompeii village with the table settings and food preserved? Come on Bogdan, you know you do!
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
          What? You're saying that you don't wish that there was a medieval Pompeii village with the table settings and food preserved? Come on Bogdan, you know you do!

          -Marion

          jeffrey.heilveil@... wrote:

          Though far less important than taste, there's almost NO opportunity to see
          how a finished dish really looked in period. I mean, if there WERE
          leftovers from so-an-so's coronation dinner, I know that _I_ wouldn't want
          to see them...

          Bogdan



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Marc Carlson
          ... True. There are paintings, but (again as with footwear) they are potentially very useful, but with some caution. Marc/Diarmaid
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, jeffrey.heilveil@n... wrote:
            >> In cooking, that's much harder since some tools and food
            >> processing techniques may be reflected in the archaeology, but
            >> nothow the finished food actually tasted :)
            > Though far less important than taste, there's almost NO opportunity
            > to see how a finished dish really looked in period. I mean, if
            > there WERE leftovers from so-an-so's coronation dinner, I know that
            > _I_ wouldn't want to see them...

            True. There are paintings, but (again as with footwear) they are
            potentially very useful, but with some caution.

            Marc/Diarmaid
          • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
            It s very difficult to put the different strands together from what I ve been working on. I ve got household accounts (basically grocery lists) but
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
              It's very difficult to put the different strands together from what
              I've been working on. I've got household accounts (basically grocery
              lists) but extrapolating what dishes they made from what staples
              they bought is deep dark water as far as I am concerned. There is a
              little written evidence, but not much Scottish poetry or prose of
              the period is concerned with food!

              That was why I felt these recipes were an important starting point.
              I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why there are no extant recipes or cookbooks
              from the period. They had publishing houses from the 15th century,
              it was certainly a literate society and from everything I can glean,
              they enjoyed fine food & new recipes from the Continent. I can't be
              certain if the shift toward early modern food happened in Scotland
              in the 1650's, because I don't have any basis for comparison.

              But again, these recipes are very medieval in flavor (no pun
              intended). Pepper, sugar, cinnamon, nutmeg, mace, salt and vinegar
              are the only flavorings mentioned. Cooked meat is served on soppes.
              The pie crust for the chicken pie is basically a stiff container for
              the filling. No new world items or any "modern" cooking techniques
              that I see.

              Scotland was very fashionable about some things and very behind the
              times on others and I don't want to read too much either way in
              regards to the cooking.

              I do appreciate the opinions though. I wasn't looking for absolution
              (grins all 'round), but true opionions and I thank you all very
              much. I'll post something here when I get the recipes on line in the
              next few days and I would welcome anyone's opinions about how the
              recipes look to them. I'm not particularly knowledgable about period
              cookery, it's something I've only reason begun to touch on, so I
              welcome advice from those more experienced. Trying to pick a domain
              name right now...

              Cheers,
              Margaret Hepburn

              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, jeffrey.heilveil@n... wrote:
              > the short answer is "no, I wouldn't be comfortable." Many of the
              > techniques used in cookery changed DRASTICALLY after 1500 (in the
              more
              > "fashionable" areas). As well, that puts you well into contact
              with new
              > world items that while may have been known, wouldn't not have been
              > routinely used in cooking.
            • Marc Carlson
              ... In the 1500s, it was determined by the more puritan groups that making palatable food was tempting people to sin, so it was decided to cover the entire
              Message 6 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret
                Hepburn" <malvoisine@y...> wrote:
                > ...That was why I felt these recipes were an important starting
                > point. I DO NOT UNDERSTAND why there are no extant recipes or
                > cookbooks from the period...

                In the 1500s, it was determined by the more puritan groups that making
                palatable food was tempting people to sin, so it was decided to cover
                the entire country and eradicate all the cook books (the only
                survivors were in the soupmaking and fast food areas...)

                This is not nearly as frustrating as Nostrodamus' Shoemaking quatrain
                in which he explicitly mentions me by name and advises all medieval
                shoemaking texts be destroyed so I can't reveal them.

                *ahem*

                I think it's lunch time.

                Marc/Diarmaid
              • Huette von Ahrens
                ... Depends on how literate that person was. Depends on how connected that person was to outside ideas etc. That is why I stated chefs and noble patrons .
                Message 7 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
                  > Message: 4
                  > Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2005 21:00:53 -0000
                  > From: "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn"
                  > <malvoisine@...>
                  > Subject: Re: opinion question on use dates of period
                  > recipes
                  >
                  > >>much snippage<<
                  >

                  > > The biggest problem with using works that are so
                  > far
                  > > out of the SCA time-frame is that in 1651 European
                  > > cookery and foodways took a radical change with
                  > the
                  > > publication of La Varenne. He influenced many
                  > changes
                  > > in how chefs made and presented foods to their
                  > noble
                  > > patrons. Most of the cookbooks published after
                  > his
                  > > seminal work show the shifting from Renaissance
                  > > foodways to Early Modern foodways. So you have to
                  > be
                  > > very careful.
                  >
                  > I am wondering how much influence La Varenne's
                  > cookbook would have
                  > had to an everyday or even gentry housewife.

                  Depends on how literate that person was. Depends on
                  how connected that person was to outside ideas etc.
                  That is why I stated "chefs" and "noble patrons". The
                  more educated you were the more likely you would be to
                  be influenced by outside ideas.

                  I am
                  > also wondering
                  > when it got to Scotland, for sale & available.

                  There was a lot of commerce between Scotland and
                  France. There even was a Scots Guard to the Courts of
                  France, so it is possible that that one of the Guards
                  could have sent it home to his wife or mother. La
                  Varenne's cookbook was immediately popular and had 30
                  editions printed in the 75 years following its initial
                  publication in 1651. From what I have read, it was
                  influencial in many European countries at that time.


                  The
                  > recipes I found
                  > last night are for a green sauce, an almond custard,
                  > orange
                  > marmalade, boiled chicken, to cook artichokes, a
                  > chicken pie, and
                  > capon cooked in lemon. They all have simple
                  > ingredients that were
                  > available in the 16th century & are filled with the
                  > wonderfully
                  > vague instructions that are in the 16th century
                  > cookery books -
                  > 'cook it till it is done', 'cook it enough'
                  > 'according to your
                  > taste', 'mingle it and beat it well' etc.

                  It sounds a lot like what you find in cookbooks
                  published in England around 1651.

                  > > Would you be willing to share your find with us?
                  > I
                  > > would be interested in seeing this find for
                  > myself.
                  > Absolutely. I found it last night on SCRAN. Luckily,
                  > her handwriting
                  > is very clear & I was able to write two of them down
                  > easily, but it
                  > was past 2am & I had to make myself go to bed
                  > (grin). I'll have all
                  > of them in vernacular & translated. Obviously, I
                  > haven't tried to
                  > redact any of them yet! I've written to the National
                  > Library of
                  > Scotland to find out if any more of the pages are
                  > available & if any
                  > of them are dated at all. The receipt book spans
                  > 1688 to 1715, so
                  > obviously, I'd like to focus on the earlier pages.
                  > Plus, I'm
                  > thinking there's always the possibility that the
                  > earlier pages are
                  > recipes she already knew well & wanted to write down
                  > first, i.e.
                  > ones she had learned as a girl, which might put me
                  > closer to SCA
                  > time period. Now, that's certainly not scientific
                  > conclusions, but I
                  > know for instance that some of the recipes in Martha
                  > Washington's
                  > cookbook are almost verbatim from some 16th century
                  > receipt books,
                  > so clearly, things got passed along sometimes
                  > unchanged.

                  Yes, they sometimes did. Martha Washington's cookbook
                  is a good example. There are others you can find by
                  comparing Early American cookbooks with period Dutch
                  cookbooks.
                  >
                  > I'll keep you posted & let the list know when I get
                  > the recipes up.
                  > I'm sure unlike anyone on this list (grins), I've
                  > got about 40
                  > projects going right now....

                  Thank you!

                  Huette

                  __________________________________________________
                  Do You Yahoo!?
                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  http://mail.yahoo.com
                • wodeford
                  ... Makiwara has been likewise been thwarted in her quest for information on period kites. Damn those Heian era Kite Eating Trees. Jehanne
                  Message 8 of 16 , Aug 1, 2005
                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson"
                    <marccarlson20@h...> wrote:
                    > This is not nearly as frustrating as Nostrodamus' Shoemaking quatrain
                    > in which he explicitly mentions me by name and advises all medieval
                    > shoemaking texts be destroyed so I can't reveal them.

                    Makiwara has been likewise been thwarted in her quest for information
                    on period kites. Damn those Heian era Kite Eating Trees.

                    Jehanne
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.