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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Another award document question

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  • Bob Davis
    Marc wrote: In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows), reading the award into court is what makes it law , so clearly the document is an added
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
      Marc wrote:

      In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows), reading the
      award into court is what makes it "law", so clearly the document is an
      added thing.

      Wm of Glencoe wrote:

      A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of personal policy, does not EVER
      read (or have read) the text of an award in Court. It was he who awarded my
      AoA. Does that mean that my AoA is not legitimate? According to your logic,
      it implies that this is the case for my award and for all other awards given
      during his reign.

      To which I reply:

      It varies by Kingdom. In the East, it is customary for a handmade document
      to accompany each award. It is considered an oddity if there is no
      document, and an apology generally issued. In other Kingdoms, if any
      document is issued at all, it is a mass-produced "promissory note." If a
      handmade document is desired, the award recipient must commission the work.

      Therefore, I see no precedent across the Society for what makes awards
      "stick." Is it the word of the King? I doubt anyone would be foolhardy
      enough to tell the King of Atlantia that none of the awards he gave count.

      Though I must confess I am troubled by what you told us, Wm. Awards are
      business items before the Court, and should be public. Awards are laudable,
      and should be lauded. Did he merely announce (or have announced), "Here's
      Wm. He just got an AoA."? Or was it a bit more than that? I know if the
      King of the East decided to do that with one of *my* documents, I'd have an
      apopleptic fit. I work really, really hard on the wording of the documents
      I produce -- I'm a calligrapher; if I haven't got words, I got nuthin' --
      and if Joe Hotstick With A Shiny Hat decided to forego reading the award
      text, I'd be furious for two reasons. One, he's pissing in *my* Kool-Aid.
      Two, he's switching off the spotlight for a person who might not get another
      award, not in another King's reign, not *ever.* Who the hell is he to get
      in the way?


      Regards,

      Rob't Fairfax
    • Amy Heilveil
      ... No, William, my logic is for the Kingdoms of the Middle and Northshield - the two kingdom where I have lived, those are the only kingdom to whose custom I
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
        On 6/30/05, Mark Bush (personal account) <markbush@...> wrote:
        > A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of personal policy, does not EVER
        > read (or have read) the text of an award in Court. It was he who awarded my
        > AoA. Does that mean that my AoA is not legitimate? According to your logic,
        > it implies that this is the case for my award and for all other awards given
        > during his reign.

        No, William, my logic is for the Kingdoms of the Middle and
        Northshield - the two kingdom where I have lived, those are the only
        kingdom to whose custom I can speak.

        Though I do agree with Robert that awards should be public and the
        King is taking away from the 'moment' of the person getting the award
        by not reading it into Court, as well as belittling the efforts of the
        artisans who donate time, materials, and effort to do documents for
        the awards.

        Despina
      • Terri Morgan
        ... In Atlantia, the award is considered valid at the time of the ceremony, with or without a scroll. True validity comes when the King and Queen list all
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
          > A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of
          > personal policy, does not EVER read (or
          > have read) the text of an award in Court.
          > It was he who awarded my AoA. Does that mean
          > that my AoA is not legitimate? According to
          > your logic, it implies that this is the case
          > for my award and for all other awards given
          > during his reign.
          > Wm of Glencoe

          In Atlantia, the award is considered "valid" at the time of the ceremony,
          with or without a scroll. True "validity" comes when the King and Queen list
          all of the awards they've given during their reign in the Acorn (Kingdom
          newsletter) ala "it isn't real until it's printed in the Acorn"... however,
          I know of at least 3 instances where a past set of Royalty have not been
          lucky in their account-keeping, or printing, and that scrap of paper is all
          the proof that the awardee had - which was used to ensure that their award
          was recorded in the OP. So in a way, you could consider your scroll or
          promissory a "receipt" proving that the action had been taken.

          Hrothny
          --
          Dame Hróðny Rognvaldsdottir, OP, OL
          Great Dark Horde, Barony of Marinus
          Misericordia Fortitudo Suprema Est
          nothingbutadame@...
        • Mark Bush (personal account)
          In may case, as is always the case with this Royal, I was called before the Crown in Court and there was a fair amount of pomp and circumstance including a
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
            In may case, as is always the case with this Royal, I was called before the
            Crown in Court and there was a fair amount of pomp and circumstance
            including a recitation of my "accomplishments" (such as they are) and His
            becoming aware of them through a variety of sources before the AoA was
            announced. The herald began to read the text and was quickly and with some
            consternation told by the King, "n My Court, award texts are not read." It
            was a bit disconcerting to me, truth be told, and I felt bad for the herald
            being spanked so in public, but it WAS His Court and it is His prerogative
            to run it as He wishes.

            As one who deeply appreciates the attention to detail and the marvel of a
            well-crafted text or scroll design, I find it unfortunate that the beautiful
            work of the artisan might not be fully recognized and appreciated in cases
            such as these. As I will never have a reign of my own, not being a
            stick-jock, but a wire wiggler myself, I will leave it to Him to satisfy His
            wishes as long as he wears the Crown. After all, if my Royal Decree the
            Crown can proclaim chocolate and strawberries, or even Jelly Bellys "period"
            and the gift of favor for their reign, they can certainly decide that award
            texts are not read in Court. Who am I to object?

            Wm of Glencoe
            MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE SNIP YOUR POSTS TO INCLUDE ONLY THE RELEVANT BITS WHEN YOU POST thank you
          • Marc Carlson
            ... Exactly, which is why I prefaced my statements with In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows) [BTW, I not necessarily responsing to you,
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Davis" <bob@r...> wrote:
              > To which I reply:
              > It varies by Kingdom....

              Exactly, which is why I prefaced my statements with "In Ansteorra (I
              assume elsewhere as well, but who knows)" [BTW, I' not necessarily
              responsing to you, but to the person who's response you replied to.
              And thank you for including that in your recapitulation).

              I don't mind if people want to take offense at things I write, and
              disagree with me (I'm used to it, and goodness knows that the Society
              is big enough for different opinions). It would be nice if they
              actually -read- what was actually being said before making responses
              that have no bearing on what WAS said though (- I know, I know - not a
              reasonable request, I'm used to that too).

              Marc/Diarmaid
            • Aliskye
              In Caid, the final award scroll (as opposed to temporary ones that are often given out at the giving of an award (we re a backlog kingdom :) ) is considered
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 5, 2005
                In Caid, the final award scroll (as opposed to temporary ones that are
                often given out at the giving of an award (we're a backlog kingdom :) )
                is considered alegal document as they are signed by the Crown and
                sealed and signed by the Principal Herald if they include armoury.

                regards,

                aliskye

                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Malmstrom" <dawn@w...>
                wrote:
                >
                > A question has recently arrised. Are award scrolls percieved as legal
                > documents and/or gifts from the Crown or are they or a nice "extra"
                > like a Laurel medallion/Knight's spurs?
                >
                > Just opening the question out to everyone.
                >
                > Donata Bonacorsi
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