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Another award document question

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  • Dawn Malmstrom
    A question has recently arrised. Are award scrolls percieved as legal documents and/or gifts from the Crown or are they or a nice extra like a Laurel
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 29, 2005
      A question has recently arrised. Are award scrolls percieved as legal
      documents and/or gifts from the Crown or are they or a nice "extra"
      like a Laurel medallion/Knight's spurs?

      Just opening the question out to everyone.

      Donata Bonacorsi
    • Cynthia J Ley
      My understanding as per the way An Tir does it is that the scroll is a formal recognition, so legal. A Peer s regalia is no more or less an extra than a
      Message 2 of 15 , Jun 29, 2005
        My understanding as per the way An Tir does it is that the scroll is a
        formal recognition, so 'legal.'

        A Peer's regalia is no more or less an extra than a crown is for the
        King. An Tir has very limited sumptuary laws, so we can pretty much
        choose the style of regalia as per our Order and persona/taste, but
        nonetheless, it's really not an 'extra,' IMHO.

        Arlys

        On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 19:05:27 -0000 "Dawn Malmstrom"
        <dawn@...> writes:
        >
        > A question has recently arrised. Are award scrolls percieved as
        > legal
        > documents and/or gifts from the Crown or are they or a nice "extra"
        > like a Laurel medallion/Knight's spurs?
        >
        > Just opening the question out to everyone.
        >
        > Donata Bonacorsi
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • Marc Carlson
        ... In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows), reading the award into court is what makes it law , so clearly the document is an added thing.
        Message 3 of 15 , Jun 30, 2005
          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Malmstrom" <dawn@w...> wrote:
          > A question has recently arrised. Are award scrolls percieved as legal
          > documents and/or gifts from the Crown or are they or a nice "extra"
          > like a Laurel medallion/Knight's spurs?
          > Just opening the question out to everyone.

          In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows), reading the
          award into court is what makes it "law", so clearly the document is an
          added thing.

          Marc/Diarmaid
        • Dawn Malmstrom
          ... A Peer s regalia is given by the Order, not the King. I guess the real question here is does the award scroll come from the Scribe or does it come from the
          Message 4 of 15 , Jun 30, 2005
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
            > My understanding as per the way An Tir does it is that the scroll is a
            > formal recognition, so 'legal.'
            >
            > A Peer's regalia is no more or less an extra than a crown is for the
            > King. An Tir has very limited sumptuary laws, so we can pretty much
            > choose the style of regalia as per our Order and persona/taste, but
            > nonetheless, it's really not an 'extra,' IMHO.
            >

            A Peer's regalia is given by the Order, not the King. I guess the real
            question here is does the award scroll come from the Scribe or does it
            come from the King?

            Donata
          • Christopher Bogs
            ... Speaking as a scribe, it seems that we generally consider the work we do as a gift to the Crown . That gift, then, is essentially re-gifted by the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 30, 2005
              Donata said:

              >A Peer's regalia is given by the Order, not the King. I guess the
              >real question here is does the award scroll
              >come from the Scribe or does it come from the King?

              Speaking as a scribe, it seems that we generally consider the work we do as
              a "gift to the Crown". That gift, then, is essentially "re-gifted" by the
              Crown when they give an award. So the scroll comes from the Crown rather
              than from the scribe...

              Christoph
              ----------------------------------------
              Christopher Bogs | Christopher Jameson
              Philadelphia, PA | Barony of Bhakail, EK
              ----------------------------------------
              Don't tell my parents I'm in the SCA --
              They think I'm running guns for a biker gang.
            • Cathal@mindspring.com
              ... It comes from the King. Until it is signed and sealed it is just another piece of paper irrespective of the quality of illumination and lettering it
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 30, 2005
                >
                > A Peer's regalia is given by the Order, not the King. I guess the real
                > question here is does the award scroll come from the Scribe or does it
                > come from the King?
                >
                > Donata

                It comes from the King. Until it is signed and sealed it is just another piece of paper
                irrespective of the quality of illumination and lettering it contains. In period there was
                never a question about the authority of writs or other legal documents in that respect.

                The clerks who wrote them were faceless entities in the office they served, and it was
                only when the King or his agent (e.g. Chancellor) ordered the appending of whatever
                degree of seal was appropriate along with his sign manual that the document had any
                force at all. It is, essentially, a letter with its authority coming from the signer not his
                secretary.

                And I will have to disagree on the origin of the regalia. None of the Peerage Orders in
                any of the Kingdoms create their members. They are afforded by +CORPORA+ the right
                to advise the King and to be consulted by him in the matter of elevations. The Crown
                solely has the right of bestowal and from those hands is given the regalia that accords
                the rank. Others may donate it directly to the Crown or gift it to the recipient as a matter
                of sentiment then or later; however it as with the act of creation is done only at the
                pleasure of the Crown.

                Cathal.






                "Duty is the sublimest word in our language.
                Do your duty in all things. You cannot do
                more, you should never wish to do less."
                Robert E. Lee
              • Amy Heilveil
                I guess the real ... My experience as a scribe in the Middle and now Northshield, says the document itself is a gift from the scribe to the Crown. It is then a
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 30, 2005
                  I guess the real
                  > question here is does the award scroll come from the Scribe or does it
                  > come from the King?


                  My experience as a scribe in the Middle and now Northshield, says the
                  document itself is a gift from the scribe to the Crown. It is then a
                  gift from the Crown to the awardee and the document does not confer
                  anything. The reading of the text into a Court opened by Their
                  Majesties, is what confers the award. The document is a nice piece of
                  commemorative paper, not required.

                  Smiles,
                  Despina de la some really *nice* commemorative paper though
                • Mark Bush (personal account)
                  A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of personal policy, does not EVER read (or have read) the text of an award in Court. It was he who awarded my AoA. Does
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jun 30, 2005
                    A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of personal policy, does not EVER
                    read (or have read) the text of an award in Court. It was he who awarded my
                    AoA. Does that mean that my AoA is not legitimate? According to your logic,
                    it implies that this is the case for my award and for all other awards given
                    during his reign.
                    Wm of Glencoe
                    Atlantia

                    _____

                    From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]
                    On Behalf Of Amy Heilveil
                    Sent: Thursday, June 30, 2005 6:49 PM
                    To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Another award document question


                    I guess the real
                    > question here is does the award scroll come from the Scribe or does it
                    > come from the King?


                    ...snip.... The reading of the text into a Court opened by Their
                    Majesties, is what confers the award. The document is a nice piece of
                    commemorative paper, not required.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Heather Rose Jones
                    ... It seems to me that both the regalia and the scroll are optional extras. A peer is a peer without regalia and an award recipient is an award recipient
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 30, 2005
                      At 3:51 PM +0000 6/30/05, Dawn Malmstrom wrote:
                      >--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
                      >> My understanding as per the way An Tir does it is that the scroll is a
                      >> formal recognition, so 'legal.'
                      >>
                      >> A Peer's regalia is no more or less an extra than a crown is for the
                      >> King. An Tir has very limited sumptuary laws, so we can pretty much
                      >> choose the style of regalia as per our Order and persona/taste, but
                      >> nonetheless, it's really not an 'extra,' IMHO.
                      >>
                      >
                      >A Peer's regalia is given by the Order, not the King. I guess the real
                      >question here is does the award scroll come from the Scribe or does it
                      >come from the King?

                      It seems to me that both the regalia and the scroll are optional
                      extras. A peer is a peer without regalia and an award recipient is
                      an award recipient without a scroll. I've heard of people using a
                      properly signed and sealed award scroll as documentation of an award
                      after moving to a new kingdom, but it isn't a sine qua non. And
                      people have been created peers without either a scroll or regalia
                      being in evidence. (Not often, mind you, but it has happened.)
                      These days it seems most typical for a candidate's friends and
                      associates to create or commission regalia, but back in the day it
                      was just as typical for the Crown to keep a stock of regalia for
                      peerages (just as they still do for lower awards).

                      Tangwystyl
                      --
                      *****
                      Heather Rose Jones
                      heather.jones@...
                      <http://heatherrosejones.com>
                      *****
                    • Bob Davis
                      Marc wrote: In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows), reading the award into court is what makes it law , so clearly the document is an added
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
                        Marc wrote:

                        In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows), reading the
                        award into court is what makes it "law", so clearly the document is an
                        added thing.

                        Wm of Glencoe wrote:

                        A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of personal policy, does not EVER
                        read (or have read) the text of an award in Court. It was he who awarded my
                        AoA. Does that mean that my AoA is not legitimate? According to your logic,
                        it implies that this is the case for my award and for all other awards given
                        during his reign.

                        To which I reply:

                        It varies by Kingdom. In the East, it is customary for a handmade document
                        to accompany each award. It is considered an oddity if there is no
                        document, and an apology generally issued. In other Kingdoms, if any
                        document is issued at all, it is a mass-produced "promissory note." If a
                        handmade document is desired, the award recipient must commission the work.

                        Therefore, I see no precedent across the Society for what makes awards
                        "stick." Is it the word of the King? I doubt anyone would be foolhardy
                        enough to tell the King of Atlantia that none of the awards he gave count.

                        Though I must confess I am troubled by what you told us, Wm. Awards are
                        business items before the Court, and should be public. Awards are laudable,
                        and should be lauded. Did he merely announce (or have announced), "Here's
                        Wm. He just got an AoA."? Or was it a bit more than that? I know if the
                        King of the East decided to do that with one of *my* documents, I'd have an
                        apopleptic fit. I work really, really hard on the wording of the documents
                        I produce -- I'm a calligrapher; if I haven't got words, I got nuthin' --
                        and if Joe Hotstick With A Shiny Hat decided to forego reading the award
                        text, I'd be furious for two reasons. One, he's pissing in *my* Kool-Aid.
                        Two, he's switching off the spotlight for a person who might not get another
                        award, not in another King's reign, not *ever.* Who the hell is he to get
                        in the way?


                        Regards,

                        Rob't Fairfax
                      • Amy Heilveil
                        ... No, William, my logic is for the Kingdoms of the Middle and Northshield - the two kingdom where I have lived, those are the only kingdom to whose custom I
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
                          On 6/30/05, Mark Bush (personal account) <markbush@...> wrote:
                          > A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of personal policy, does not EVER
                          > read (or have read) the text of an award in Court. It was he who awarded my
                          > AoA. Does that mean that my AoA is not legitimate? According to your logic,
                          > it implies that this is the case for my award and for all other awards given
                          > during his reign.

                          No, William, my logic is for the Kingdoms of the Middle and
                          Northshield - the two kingdom where I have lived, those are the only
                          kingdom to whose custom I can speak.

                          Though I do agree with Robert that awards should be public and the
                          King is taking away from the 'moment' of the person getting the award
                          by not reading it into Court, as well as belittling the efforts of the
                          artisans who donate time, materials, and effort to do documents for
                          the awards.

                          Despina
                        • Terri Morgan
                          ... In Atlantia, the award is considered valid at the time of the ceremony, with or without a scroll. True validity comes when the King and Queen list all
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
                            > A recent King of Atlantia, as a matter of
                            > personal policy, does not EVER read (or
                            > have read) the text of an award in Court.
                            > It was he who awarded my AoA. Does that mean
                            > that my AoA is not legitimate? According to
                            > your logic, it implies that this is the case
                            > for my award and for all other awards given
                            > during his reign.
                            > Wm of Glencoe

                            In Atlantia, the award is considered "valid" at the time of the ceremony,
                            with or without a scroll. True "validity" comes when the King and Queen list
                            all of the awards they've given during their reign in the Acorn (Kingdom
                            newsletter) ala "it isn't real until it's printed in the Acorn"... however,
                            I know of at least 3 instances where a past set of Royalty have not been
                            lucky in their account-keeping, or printing, and that scrap of paper is all
                            the proof that the awardee had - which was used to ensure that their award
                            was recorded in the OP. So in a way, you could consider your scroll or
                            promissory a "receipt" proving that the action had been taken.

                            Hrothny
                            --
                            Dame Hróðny Rognvaldsdottir, OP, OL
                            Great Dark Horde, Barony of Marinus
                            Misericordia Fortitudo Suprema Est
                            nothingbutadame@...
                          • Mark Bush (personal account)
                            In may case, as is always the case with this Royal, I was called before the Crown in Court and there was a fair amount of pomp and circumstance including a
                            Message 13 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
                              In may case, as is always the case with this Royal, I was called before the
                              Crown in Court and there was a fair amount of pomp and circumstance
                              including a recitation of my "accomplishments" (such as they are) and His
                              becoming aware of them through a variety of sources before the AoA was
                              announced. The herald began to read the text and was quickly and with some
                              consternation told by the King, "n My Court, award texts are not read." It
                              was a bit disconcerting to me, truth be told, and I felt bad for the herald
                              being spanked so in public, but it WAS His Court and it is His prerogative
                              to run it as He wishes.

                              As one who deeply appreciates the attention to detail and the marvel of a
                              well-crafted text or scroll design, I find it unfortunate that the beautiful
                              work of the artisan might not be fully recognized and appreciated in cases
                              such as these. As I will never have a reign of my own, not being a
                              stick-jock, but a wire wiggler myself, I will leave it to Him to satisfy His
                              wishes as long as he wears the Crown. After all, if my Royal Decree the
                              Crown can proclaim chocolate and strawberries, or even Jelly Bellys "period"
                              and the gift of favor for their reign, they can certainly decide that award
                              texts are not read in Court. Who am I to object?

                              Wm of Glencoe
                              MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE SNIP YOUR POSTS TO INCLUDE ONLY THE RELEVANT BITS WHEN YOU POST thank you
                            • Marc Carlson
                              ... Exactly, which is why I prefaced my statements with In Ansteorra (I assume elsewhere as well, but who knows) [BTW, I not necessarily responsing to you,
                              Message 14 of 15 , Jul 1, 2005
                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Davis" <bob@r...> wrote:
                                > To which I reply:
                                > It varies by Kingdom....

                                Exactly, which is why I prefaced my statements with "In Ansteorra (I
                                assume elsewhere as well, but who knows)" [BTW, I' not necessarily
                                responsing to you, but to the person who's response you replied to.
                                And thank you for including that in your recapitulation).

                                I don't mind if people want to take offense at things I write, and
                                disagree with me (I'm used to it, and goodness knows that the Society
                                is big enough for different opinions). It would be nice if they
                                actually -read- what was actually being said before making responses
                                that have no bearing on what WAS said though (- I know, I know - not a
                                reasonable request, I'm used to that too).

                                Marc/Diarmaid
                              • Aliskye
                                In Caid, the final award scroll (as opposed to temporary ones that are often given out at the giving of an award (we re a backlog kingdom :) ) is considered
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jul 5, 2005
                                  In Caid, the final award scroll (as opposed to temporary ones that are
                                  often given out at the giving of an award (we're a backlog kingdom :) )
                                  is considered alegal document as they are signed by the Crown and
                                  sealed and signed by the Principal Herald if they include armoury.

                                  regards,

                                  aliskye

                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Dawn Malmstrom" <dawn@w...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A question has recently arrised. Are award scrolls percieved as legal
                                  > documents and/or gifts from the Crown or are they or a nice "extra"
                                  > like a Laurel medallion/Knight's spurs?
                                  >
                                  > Just opening the question out to everyone.
                                  >
                                  > Donata Bonacorsi
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