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Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic junky-fighters out there...

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  • Lyle H. Gray
    ... I m tempted to say that if you really knew about period tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn t make that comment, since there really are aspects of
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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      On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Marc Lauterbach wrote:

      > Out of curiosity, how do you feel about applying your
      > fondness for authenticity into the field of martial arts,
      > both in terms of fencing and heavy fighting? While I
      > understand on the surface that this may seem a patently silly
      > question: hitting each other with rattan isn't exactly a
      > period thing to do (yes yes, I know about period tournaments
      > and mock battles, but still...).

      I'm tempted to say that if you really knew about period
      tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn't make that comment,
      since there really are aspects of what we do in tournaments that
      match what they did in tournaments. The main differences for us
      is that we aren't riding horses for most of our tournaments and
      the victory conditions are different.

      > So my question is, how far do you take your authenticity on
      > the field? Do you wear fully period mild steel armour,
      > stainless and/or leather, or modern "sports" armour? I can
      > see the arguements to any and all of these armouring
      > preferences, but I was just wondering what everyone's feel
      > is.

      I wear a combination of mild steel and leather, and the
      appearance of my arm and leg armor matches a depiction from Rene'
      d'Anjou's Book of the Tournament. The body armor is similar to
      the one of the Wisby patterns, the helm is a closed-face barrel
      helm. There are a few added items for safety reasons, but other
      than that, I do make an attempt to appear authentic when in
      armor.

      Lyle

      --
      Lyle H. Gray
      gray@... -- text only, please
      http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
      --
      Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
    • Marc Lauterbach
      I m tempted to say that if you really knew about period tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn t make that comment, since there really are aspects of what
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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        "I'm tempted to say that if you really knew about period
        tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn't make that comment,
        since there really are aspects of what we do in tournaments that
        match what they did in tournaments."

        You misunderstand what I'm getting at. Yes, of course
        tournaments and mock battle are period. However, it seems to me that
        instead of attemping to recreate and reenact/copy medieval
        tournaments in order to emulate what was done in the past, medieval
        combat as we know it in the SCA has found it own little niche in the
        recreation world and as such people go out of their way to violate
        the spirit of original medieval tournaments/combat in order to give
        themselves an advantage in the spots-like world of sca combat. In
        this regard, I suspect that while in theory, yes the concept of
        hitting each other with fake weapons for exercise, training and
        chivalry are conceptually period, the way it is put into practice is
        for the most part not. There are exceptions to the rule, however,
        the most obvious being SCAdian tournament companies and the types of
        ppl who like to run "pas d'armes," but these appear to be a tiny
        fraction of all SCA combats taking place.

        Granted, there are some ways in which it is impossible to recreate
        medieval tournaments: mounted martial activities, whalebone swords,
        blunted steel weapons, all of these are obviously extremely difficult
        to recreate. However, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm
        talking about athletic cleats, camelbacks, fiberglass spears, basket
        hilts, plastic armour, aluminum shields, bar grills on helms, hockey
        gloves, and Gatorade. There are ways around all of this, for example
        wearing nothing by steel and leather armour, a closed helm, a wooden
        shield, full gauntlets with crossguard hilts, hobnailed poulaines,
        and forgoing the little water hose creeping up into one's helm.
        However, take a fighter, clone him, and put one in a Fetchtbuck rig
        and the other in Kydex with a bargrill bascinet, and I'd be willing
        to bet that more times than not, the inauthentic clone beats out the
        authentic one.

        Now, conceptually, take that one step further. Say that instead
        of pretending that the bridge battle at Pennsic is a medieval
        tournament a la plaisance you choose to view it as a real military
        engaement, what do you do? I, for example, run a full period rig
        (with a bargrill bascinet with the justification that most
        infantrymen would have had an open-face helm), but also from time to
        time will consider wearing "sports armour." Why? Because even
        though obviously kydex is not period, neither is full armour for the
        vast majority of infantry combattants.

        If I feel like doing a French "brigan" light infantry
        impression, the only armour I would be theoretically wearing is a
        coat of plates and a helmet with maybe a buckler. However, we do
        have safety minmums to uphold. Thus is it ok for me to wear kydex
        legs and arms considering the fact that in period my bloke wouldn't
        have been wearing anything on his limbs? Same goes for vikings. Is
        it ok for them to wear kydex legs and arms under their clothes
        because while they wouldn't have had them in period, they must wear
        something and, let's face it, getting hit in a leg with nothing but a
        cop on really freakin' hurts? I can understand that since the
        fighter in period would have nothing on his limbs at all he or she
        should probably take hits significantly more lightly than is
        stipulated by the hauberk over gambeson assumption in the combat
        rules, but they do so, is it acceptable from a period point of view?
        I understand that many people will automatically say that anything
        plastic is fundamentally not period and as such should be discarded,
        but on the other hand it seems reasonable to me that one can wear
        plastic and still be in the spirit of being period.
        My two bob.
        Matthaeus
      • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
        ... Actually, I found this terrific woodcut of Hungarian soldiers from more-or-less the time period I study. Since the Hungarians were in control of Brasov at
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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          > Out of curiosity, how do you feel about applying your fondness for
          > authenticity into the field of martial arts, both in terms of fencing
          > and heavy fighting?

          Actually, I found this terrific woodcut of Hungarian soldiers from
          more-or-less the time period I study. Since the Hungarians were in
          control of Brasov at the time, I feel pretty safe using it. I've modeled
          my mace after the footman's maces they are using, even down to the lanyard
          (YES. THEY HAVE OBVIOUS LANYARDS.). I was at the Met a couple of years
          ago and saw a shield that was constructed similarly to war-shields from
          the woodcut, so I requested detailed information on the piece, which the
          museum happily supplied. I'm working on making the shield so that I have
          that too. Unfortunately, the men in the woodcuts were helmet-less, but
          there were German Knights resident in Brasov from 1211 on and I have a
          German Salet with a 1-inch eye slit. Now, I need to pick up a full bevor,
          or I'll have to weld some steel onto the helm to cover the cheekbones, but
          it's better than nothing. In addition, I know that the pieces probably
          wouldn't have been worn together (Hungarian weapons and armor with German
          helm), but it's the best I can do under the circumstances. So that being
          said, yeah, I guess I tend to be a "freak" when it comes to armor as well.

          It's funny that you asked about armor, since I noticed the same about
          food. How there are many many people who are UBER careful about their
          clothing, and yet insist on their coffee, coke, and chocolate during the
          day.

          Cu drag,
          Bogdan

          -----------------------------------------------------------
          Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
          Postdoctoral Fellow
          Department of Biological Sciences
          North Dakota State University
          Stevens Hall
          Fargo, ND 58105
          jeffrey.heilveil@...
        • Despair Bear
          ... I try to put as much atheauthenticitymy fighting as I posspossibly. I use period type weapons, center bossed round shield 22 , 30 sword blade. Period
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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            --- Marc LautLauterbachlamllautewm>eduote:

            > Out of curiosity, how do you feel about applying
            > your fondness for
            > authenticity into the field of martial arts, both in
            > terms of fencing
            > and heavy fighting? While I understand on the
            > surface that this may
            > seem a patently silly question: hitting each other
            > with rattan isn't
            > exactly a period thing to do (yes yes, I know about
            > period tournaments
            > and mock battles, but still...). So my question is,
            > how far do you
            > take your authenticity on the field? Do you wear
            > fully period mild
            > steel armoarmourainless and/or leather, or modern
            > "sports" armoarmour
            > can see the arguarguementsany and all of these
            > armoarmouringferences,
            > but I was just wondering what evereveryone'sl is.
            > Matthaeus

            I try to put as much atheauthenticitymy fighting as I
            posspossibly. I use period type weapons, center bossed
            round shield 22", 30" sword blade. Period armor as
            much as possible, chain and as little plate as I can
            get away with (elbows and hands are hard to hide) my
            goal is to finish my rivirivetedichain mail make my
            armor look like a chain shirt and a helmet only. As
            for fishfightingle I try. I choose no to throw wraps
            (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period MA
            works.) and I try to do "what seems right" with my
            shield and sword rather than what I can possibly do
            with them. In war I am working on using a few
            javijavelins a 6-7' spear both of which are supported
            by the grave finds for my perspersonna is hard, the
            rules are not real period friendly so we just have to
            do what we can.


            GodrGodricCastCastlemont



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          • Lyle H. Gray
            ... You forgot the tournaments that were fought with wooden maces (the baston course). ... I m not going to argue most of those, except to note that bar
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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              On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Marc Lauterbach wrote:

              > Granted, there are some ways in which it is impossible to recreate
              > medieval tournaments: mounted martial activities, whalebone swords,
              > blunted steel weapons, all of these are obviously extremely difficult
              > to recreate.

              You forgot the tournaments that were fought with wooden maces
              (the "baston" course).

              > However, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking
              > about athletic cleats, camelbacks, fiberglass spears, basket
              > hilts, plastic armour, aluminum shields, bar grills on helms,
              > hockey gloves, and Gatorade. There are ways around all of
              > this, for example wearing nothing by steel and leather
              > armour, a closed helm, a wooden shield, full gauntlets with
              > crossguard hilts, hobnailed poulaines, and forgoing the
              > little water hose creeping up into one's helm. However, take
              > a fighter, clone him, and put one in a Fetchtbuck rig and the
              > other in Kydex with a bargrill bascinet, and I'd be willing
              > to bet that more times than not, the inauthentic clone beats
              > out the authentic one.

              I'm not going to argue most of those, except to note that bar
              grills on helms are period (Rene' d'Anjou's Book of the
              Tournament shows several).

              Also, some of the knights in that book were full plate, some
              where splinted leather. One of the illustrations shows a
              breastplate that has been perforated with holes (> 1" diameter)
              for ventilation.

              What were we talking about again? ;-)

              --
              Lyle H. Gray
              gray@... -- text only, please
              http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
              --
              Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
            • William Harrington
              ... From: Despair Bear To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Despair Bear
                To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:33 AM
                Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic junky-fighters out there...


                I choose no to throw wraps
                (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period MA
                works.)

                Wraps are supported in the Red Branch cycles of Ireland. Specifically the battle with swords and Shields between Cuchulaine and Ferdia describes there injuries as being on the legs and shoulderblades. Clearly they were using wrap shots to bypass the shields and land strikes on the back. So, go ahead and use 'em.

                Dorje

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jonathan and Rebecca Barber
                ... Are you referring to this particular passage? Then they took two full-great long-shields upon them for that day. They turned to their heavy, hard-smiting
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                  > > I choose no to throw wraps
                  > > (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period MA
                  > > works.)
                  >
                  > Wraps are supported in the Red Branch cycles of Ireland. Specifically the battle with
                  > swords and Shields between Cuchulaine and Ferdia describes there injuries as being
                  > on the legs and shoulderblades. Clearly they were using wrap shots to bypass the
                  > shields and land strikes on the back. So, go ahead and use 'em.

                  Are you referring to this particular passage?

                  "Then they took two full-great long-shields upon them for that day. They turned to their heavy, hard-smiting swords. Each of them fell to strike and to hew, to lay low and cut down, to slay and undo his fellow, till as large as the head of a month-old child was each lump and each cut, that each of them took from the shoulders and thighs and shoulder-blades of the other."

                  A different translation:
                  "So they took up their great full-length shields, and lifted their heavy, hard-striking swords, and each began to hack and slash at the other, striking and cutting and destroying, till each was covered with lumps of flesh and clots of gore as big as a month-old baby's head, cut from each other's shoulders and backs and sides. They fought like this from dawn's light until sunset."

                  I don't personally think that qualifies as support for the use of the SCA wrap shot; it gives no indication whatsoever for how these wounds were infilcted and it is far from clear (to me anyway) that they were "...using wrap shots to bypass the shields and land strikes on the back".

                  I have yet to see any solid documentation that supports the martial effectiveness of the wrap shot. There's inferential evidence. This bit from an Irish saga; sagas tend to be fairly unreliable as hard evidence though, and I've found more and more that even iconographic evidence for battle scenes can seem...spectacular, especially when they are clearly allegorical in nature. Some archeological evidence from the Wisby site seems to lend itself to the *possibility* that wrap-type shots caused some of the wounds, but without a great deal of time spent by experts who to the best of my knowledge haven't even been consulted it's just conjecture. I've never seen anything conclusive; if anyone has anything they feel is solid I'd love to see it.

                  Jon Barber
                  (I don't use them either, but that's because they don't make sense to me within the fighting systems I study outside the SCA and I try not to play too much to the rules in the SCA)
                • Chris Laning
                  ... Somehow I don t think that you re likely to get many people saying, Yes, I do something totally inauthentic because it gives me an advantage in fighting
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                    At 1:16 PM +0000 6/9/05, Marc Lauterbach wrote:
                    >However, it seems to me that
                    >instead of attemping to recreate and reenact/copy medieval
                    >tournaments in order to emulate what was done in the past, medieval
                    >combat as we know it in the SCA has found it own little niche in the
                    >recreation world and as such people go out of their way to violate
                    >the spirit of original medieval tournaments/combat in order to give
                    >themselves an advantage in the spots-like world of sca combat.

                    Somehow I don't think that you're likely to get many people saying,
                    "Yes, I do something totally inauthentic because it gives me an
                    advantage in fighting over someone wearing authentic armor" on an
                    authenticity-based list. <g>

                    I actually don't have any idea whether modern equipment _would_ give
                    an advantage, since I don't fight. Does it?

                    On the whole, I would suspect that people's rationale for using
                    modern stuff is probably one or more of the usual reasons: it's what
                    I could find, it's what I could afford, it's the only thing that fits
                    me, I don't have the knowledge to make my own, I need it because of a
                    special vulnerability or past injury, I don't know where to look for
                    something more authentic, or of course the classic "Hey duuuuuuude,
                    isn't this s'posed to be 'bout havin' FUN??!?"
                    --
                    ____________________________________________________________

                    O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                    + Chris Laning <claning@...>
                    http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                    ____________________________________________________________
                  • kittencat3@aol.com
                    Hm. Lady Christian raises a good point: just what advantages *would* someone using modern equipment have over someone with a completely authentic kit? The
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                      Hm. Lady Christian raises a good point: just what advantages *would* someone
                      using modern equipment have over someone with a completely authentic kit?

                      The first one that comes to mind is weight. I've seen a lot of fighters
                      using gambesons made from moving pads, reworked hockey or lacross equipment, and
                      either plastic or leather armor. These are all much lighter than steel, chain,
                      or the medieval/Renaissance jack (three fingers' breadths of linen sandwiched
                      between two layers of canvas, sometimes with steel plates sewn between the
                      quilted channels). The gambesons are also thinner than the medieval versions.
                      All of that adds up to a tremendous advantage for the SCA fighter over the
                      medieval fighter in terms of weight and mobility, not to mention the drain on a
                      fighter's energy after a few hours of sweating into the equipment.

                      It's rather like the difference between the leather and kapok padding worn by
                      hockey players in the Bobby Orr era and the vinyl and foam pads used today.
                      Modern protective equipment weighs less than *half* what the old version does,
                      particularly a goalie's leg pads (up to thirty pounds *apiece* for the old
                      leather versions, which absorbed water from melting ice during play)....

                      Sarah Davies


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Marc Lauterbach
                      Right, and there are ways around that. One example is an Aketon/Gambeson with a few steel splints sewn in the the back for minmum protection. After all,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                        Right, and there are ways around that. One example is an
                        Aketon/Gambeson with a few steel splints sewn in the the back for
                        minmum protection. After all, there's plenty of evidence that some
                        footsoldiers wore nothing but an Aketon for torso protection. On the
                        other hand, it's probably going to be just as heavy as a golbose
                        plastic breastplate and will protect much less from the ouchy shots
                        (mmm...greatsword to the gut).
                      • lilinah@earthlink.net
                        Bogdan ... Well, i confess i do start the day with coffee, which is plausible when i m in my 16th c. Ottoman garb. But other than that i don t bring chocolate
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                          Bogdan
                          >It's funny that you asked about armor, since I noticed the same about
                          >food. How there are many many people who are UBER careful about their
                          >clothing, and yet insist on their coffee, coke, and chocolate during the
                          >day.

                          Well, i confess i do start the day with coffee, which is plausible
                          when i'm in my 16th c. Ottoman garb. But other than that i don't
                          bring chocolate to events or have coffee at other times of the day. I
                          hardly ever drink soda - not even once a month - although i have on
                          an occasion or two in the past 6 years begged a Coke off someone
                          during breakdown late on Sunday afternoon when everyone is back in
                          their mundanes. That's when i get exhausted and sunburnt and i guess
                          it's the combo of sugar and caffeine that gives me enough *zip* to
                          get all my crap in my car and drive home safely.

                          I used to cook mostly period food at events, but my back has been
                          especially bad the past year, so i often don't bring my stove or
                          cooler or all the pots and pans. I just eat tuna out of the can
                          moistened with salad dressing... it's cold, it's boring, but at least
                          i'm not injuring myself.

                          Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                          the persona formerly known as Anahita
                          --
                          Soylens Viridis Homines Est!
                        • Despair Bear
                          ... I have to disagree. Yes I think that a dorsal laceration is possible to deliver with a sword but I have found that to deliver such an injury requires a
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 11, 2005
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                            --- William Harrington <dorje@...> wrote:

                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: Despair Bear
                            > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:33 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic
                            > junky-fighters out there...
                            >
                            >
                            > I choose no to throw wraps
                            > (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period
                            > MA
                            > works.)
                            >
                            > Wraps are supported in the Red Branch cycles of
                            > Ireland. Specifically the battle with swords and
                            > Shields between Cuchulaine and Ferdia describes
                            > there injuries as being on the legs and
                            > shoulderblades. Clearly they were using wrap shots
                            > to bypass the shields and land strikes on the back.
                            > So, go ahead and use 'em.
                            >
                            > Dorje
                            >

                            I have to disagree. Yes I think that a dorsal
                            laceration is possible to deliver with a sword but I
                            have found that to deliver such an injury requires a
                            slicing motion not a "hewing" motion such as is
                            delivered with an sca sword. Slicing is not effective
                            in sca combat due to the nature of the game we play
                            just as many aspects of combat are no part of the game
                            we play. Now it is possable for a wrap delivered in
                            the sca manner to be effective with other wepaons I
                            think, for example a mace or possibly a hammer.
                            Weapons with more head mass than a bladed wepaon tends
                            to have.

                            Having said that, I have nothing aginst wraps used by
                            other people, it is simply not part of the game "I"
                            play. I also take arrow hit in any location (in
                            referance to west kingdom plate is proof rules), I do
                            not belive that the armor worn in my period would stop
                            an arrow so I don't let it. Again just the way I play
                            my game.


                            Godric Of Castlemont


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                          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                            In a message dated 6/9/2005 12:54:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 11, 2005
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                              In a message dated 6/9/2005 12:54:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                              <<So my question is, how far do you
                              take your authenticity on the field? Do you wear fully period mild
                              steel armour, stainless and/or leather, or modern "sports" armour? >>

                              I don't fight, but speaking for my husband, he's been working on getting his
                              harness more authentic. At this point he has a very authentic 14th century
                              rig that he wears primarily for demos and tourney company events, and a
                              somewhat less authentic (or at least less elaborate; overall he still looks like
                              he stepped off a tomb brass), but still much more so than the average joe,
                              harness that he wears for standard SCA fighting. A lot of his stuff is mild; he
                              makes sure to oil it after each use.
                              He's also been doing a lot of work towards learning more period fighting
                              styles and using them when he can.

                              Brangwayna
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