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Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic junky-fighters out there...

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  • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
    While I haven t fought in quite some time, my goal is to go out in as period (for my persona) a harness as I am safe and able. That means that I may make some
    Message 1 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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      While I haven't fought in quite some time, my goal is to go out in as
      period (for my persona) a harness as I am safe and able. That means
      that I may make some adjustments--there are parts of the armour that
      need to be stronger than it might otherwise have been, or else wearing
      gauntlets unlike what my persona would have worn. A grill is a pretty
      major mark of SCA combat--although there are some ways that you can
      get around that in certain periods and places.

      What I do need to have--such as elbow cowters where I wouldn't
      otherwise have them--I try to hide underneath my armour and clothing.

      I don't claim perfection. There is still a lot I have to learn, but I
      want it at least to look right, and preferrably to feel right.

      -Joshua B.

      On 6/8/05, Marc Lauterbach <mllaut@...> wrote:
      > Out of curiosity, how do you feel about applying your fondness for
      > authenticity into the field of martial arts, both in terms of fencing
      > and heavy fighting? While I understand on the surface that this may
      > seem a patently silly question: hitting each other with rattan isn't
      > exactly a period thing to do (yes yes, I know about period tournaments
      > and mock battles, but still...). So my question is, how far do you
      > take your authenticity on the field? Do you wear fully period mild
      > steel armour, stainless and/or leather, or modern "sports" armour? I
      > can see the arguements to any and all of these armouring preferences,
      > but I was just wondering what everyone's feel is.
      > Matthaeus
      >
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    • Ii Saburou Katsumori (Joshua B.)
      Oh, and another thing--I try to fight right. In my case I study Japanese swordsmanship outside of the SCA, as well as naginata (polearm). The way we use
      Message 2 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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        Oh, and another thing--I try to fight right. In my case I study
        Japanese swordsmanship outside of the SCA, as well as naginata
        (polearm). The way we use weapons in SCA combat is often geared
        towards the SCA rules and what counts as a 'kill', and so it lends
        itself to a particular style. I attempt to look like I might actually
        have a real weapon in my hands, and try to use what I've learned about
        that weapon.

        -Ii
      • Lyle H. Gray
        ... I m tempted to say that if you really knew about period tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn t make that comment, since there really are aspects of
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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          On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Marc Lauterbach wrote:

          > Out of curiosity, how do you feel about applying your
          > fondness for authenticity into the field of martial arts,
          > both in terms of fencing and heavy fighting? While I
          > understand on the surface that this may seem a patently silly
          > question: hitting each other with rattan isn't exactly a
          > period thing to do (yes yes, I know about period tournaments
          > and mock battles, but still...).

          I'm tempted to say that if you really knew about period
          tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn't make that comment,
          since there really are aspects of what we do in tournaments that
          match what they did in tournaments. The main differences for us
          is that we aren't riding horses for most of our tournaments and
          the victory conditions are different.

          > So my question is, how far do you take your authenticity on
          > the field? Do you wear fully period mild steel armour,
          > stainless and/or leather, or modern "sports" armour? I can
          > see the arguements to any and all of these armouring
          > preferences, but I was just wondering what everyone's feel
          > is.

          I wear a combination of mild steel and leather, and the
          appearance of my arm and leg armor matches a depiction from Rene'
          d'Anjou's Book of the Tournament. The body armor is similar to
          the one of the Wisby patterns, the helm is a closed-face barrel
          helm. There are a few added items for safety reasons, but other
          than that, I do make an attempt to appear authentic when in
          armor.

          Lyle

          --
          Lyle H. Gray
          gray@... -- text only, please
          http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
          --
          Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
        • Marc Lauterbach
          I m tempted to say that if you really knew about period tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn t make that comment, since there really are aspects of what
          Message 4 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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            "I'm tempted to say that if you really knew about period
            tournaments and mock battles, you wouldn't make that comment,
            since there really are aspects of what we do in tournaments that
            match what they did in tournaments."

            You misunderstand what I'm getting at. Yes, of course
            tournaments and mock battle are period. However, it seems to me that
            instead of attemping to recreate and reenact/copy medieval
            tournaments in order to emulate what was done in the past, medieval
            combat as we know it in the SCA has found it own little niche in the
            recreation world and as such people go out of their way to violate
            the spirit of original medieval tournaments/combat in order to give
            themselves an advantage in the spots-like world of sca combat. In
            this regard, I suspect that while in theory, yes the concept of
            hitting each other with fake weapons for exercise, training and
            chivalry are conceptually period, the way it is put into practice is
            for the most part not. There are exceptions to the rule, however,
            the most obvious being SCAdian tournament companies and the types of
            ppl who like to run "pas d'armes," but these appear to be a tiny
            fraction of all SCA combats taking place.

            Granted, there are some ways in which it is impossible to recreate
            medieval tournaments: mounted martial activities, whalebone swords,
            blunted steel weapons, all of these are obviously extremely difficult
            to recreate. However, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm
            talking about athletic cleats, camelbacks, fiberglass spears, basket
            hilts, plastic armour, aluminum shields, bar grills on helms, hockey
            gloves, and Gatorade. There are ways around all of this, for example
            wearing nothing by steel and leather armour, a closed helm, a wooden
            shield, full gauntlets with crossguard hilts, hobnailed poulaines,
            and forgoing the little water hose creeping up into one's helm.
            However, take a fighter, clone him, and put one in a Fetchtbuck rig
            and the other in Kydex with a bargrill bascinet, and I'd be willing
            to bet that more times than not, the inauthentic clone beats out the
            authentic one.

            Now, conceptually, take that one step further. Say that instead
            of pretending that the bridge battle at Pennsic is a medieval
            tournament a la plaisance you choose to view it as a real military
            engaement, what do you do? I, for example, run a full period rig
            (with a bargrill bascinet with the justification that most
            infantrymen would have had an open-face helm), but also from time to
            time will consider wearing "sports armour." Why? Because even
            though obviously kydex is not period, neither is full armour for the
            vast majority of infantry combattants.

            If I feel like doing a French "brigan" light infantry
            impression, the only armour I would be theoretically wearing is a
            coat of plates and a helmet with maybe a buckler. However, we do
            have safety minmums to uphold. Thus is it ok for me to wear kydex
            legs and arms considering the fact that in period my bloke wouldn't
            have been wearing anything on his limbs? Same goes for vikings. Is
            it ok for them to wear kydex legs and arms under their clothes
            because while they wouldn't have had them in period, they must wear
            something and, let's face it, getting hit in a leg with nothing but a
            cop on really freakin' hurts? I can understand that since the
            fighter in period would have nothing on his limbs at all he or she
            should probably take hits significantly more lightly than is
            stipulated by the hauberk over gambeson assumption in the combat
            rules, but they do so, is it acceptable from a period point of view?
            I understand that many people will automatically say that anything
            plastic is fundamentally not period and as such should be discarded,
            but on the other hand it seems reasonable to me that one can wear
            plastic and still be in the spirit of being period.
            My two bob.
            Matthaeus
          • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
            ... Actually, I found this terrific woodcut of Hungarian soldiers from more-or-less the time period I study. Since the Hungarians were in control of Brasov at
            Message 5 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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              > Out of curiosity, how do you feel about applying your fondness for
              > authenticity into the field of martial arts, both in terms of fencing
              > and heavy fighting?

              Actually, I found this terrific woodcut of Hungarian soldiers from
              more-or-less the time period I study. Since the Hungarians were in
              control of Brasov at the time, I feel pretty safe using it. I've modeled
              my mace after the footman's maces they are using, even down to the lanyard
              (YES. THEY HAVE OBVIOUS LANYARDS.). I was at the Met a couple of years
              ago and saw a shield that was constructed similarly to war-shields from
              the woodcut, so I requested detailed information on the piece, which the
              museum happily supplied. I'm working on making the shield so that I have
              that too. Unfortunately, the men in the woodcuts were helmet-less, but
              there were German Knights resident in Brasov from 1211 on and I have a
              German Salet with a 1-inch eye slit. Now, I need to pick up a full bevor,
              or I'll have to weld some steel onto the helm to cover the cheekbones, but
              it's better than nothing. In addition, I know that the pieces probably
              wouldn't have been worn together (Hungarian weapons and armor with German
              helm), but it's the best I can do under the circumstances. So that being
              said, yeah, I guess I tend to be a "freak" when it comes to armor as well.

              It's funny that you asked about armor, since I noticed the same about
              food. How there are many many people who are UBER careful about their
              clothing, and yet insist on their coffee, coke, and chocolate during the
              day.

              Cu drag,
              Bogdan

              -----------------------------------------------------------
              Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
              Postdoctoral Fellow
              Department of Biological Sciences
              North Dakota State University
              Stevens Hall
              Fargo, ND 58105
              jeffrey.heilveil@...
            • Despair Bear
              ... I try to put as much atheauthenticitymy fighting as I posspossibly. I use period type weapons, center bossed round shield 22 , 30 sword blade. Period
              Message 6 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                --- Marc LautLauterbachlamllautewm>eduote:

                > Out of curiosity, how do you feel about applying
                > your fondness for
                > authenticity into the field of martial arts, both in
                > terms of fencing
                > and heavy fighting? While I understand on the
                > surface that this may
                > seem a patently silly question: hitting each other
                > with rattan isn't
                > exactly a period thing to do (yes yes, I know about
                > period tournaments
                > and mock battles, but still...). So my question is,
                > how far do you
                > take your authenticity on the field? Do you wear
                > fully period mild
                > steel armoarmourainless and/or leather, or modern
                > "sports" armoarmour
                > can see the arguarguementsany and all of these
                > armoarmouringferences,
                > but I was just wondering what evereveryone'sl is.
                > Matthaeus

                I try to put as much atheauthenticitymy fighting as I
                posspossibly. I use period type weapons, center bossed
                round shield 22", 30" sword blade. Period armor as
                much as possible, chain and as little plate as I can
                get away with (elbows and hands are hard to hide) my
                goal is to finish my rivirivetedichain mail make my
                armor look like a chain shirt and a helmet only. As
                for fishfightingle I try. I choose no to throw wraps
                (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period MA
                works.) and I try to do "what seems right" with my
                shield and sword rather than what I can possibly do
                with them. In war I am working on using a few
                javijavelins a 6-7' spear both of which are supported
                by the grave finds for my perspersonna is hard, the
                rules are not real period friendly so we just have to
                do what we can.


                GodrGodricCastCastlemont



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              • Lyle H. Gray
                ... You forgot the tournaments that were fought with wooden maces (the baston course). ... I m not going to argue most of those, except to note that bar
                Message 7 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                  On Thu, 9 Jun 2005, Marc Lauterbach wrote:

                  > Granted, there are some ways in which it is impossible to recreate
                  > medieval tournaments: mounted martial activities, whalebone swords,
                  > blunted steel weapons, all of these are obviously extremely difficult
                  > to recreate.

                  You forgot the tournaments that were fought with wooden maces
                  (the "baston" course).

                  > However, that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking
                  > about athletic cleats, camelbacks, fiberglass spears, basket
                  > hilts, plastic armour, aluminum shields, bar grills on helms,
                  > hockey gloves, and Gatorade. There are ways around all of
                  > this, for example wearing nothing by steel and leather
                  > armour, a closed helm, a wooden shield, full gauntlets with
                  > crossguard hilts, hobnailed poulaines, and forgoing the
                  > little water hose creeping up into one's helm. However, take
                  > a fighter, clone him, and put one in a Fetchtbuck rig and the
                  > other in Kydex with a bargrill bascinet, and I'd be willing
                  > to bet that more times than not, the inauthentic clone beats
                  > out the authentic one.

                  I'm not going to argue most of those, except to note that bar
                  grills on helms are period (Rene' d'Anjou's Book of the
                  Tournament shows several).

                  Also, some of the knights in that book were full plate, some
                  where splinted leather. One of the illustrations shows a
                  breastplate that has been perforated with holes (> 1" diameter)
                  for ventilation.

                  What were we talking about again? ;-)

                  --
                  Lyle H. Gray
                  gray@... -- text only, please
                  http://members.verizon.net/~vze3wwx7
                  --
                  Shared knowledge is preserved knowledge.
                • William Harrington
                  ... From: Despair Bear To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:33 AM Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Despair Bear
                    To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:33 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic junky-fighters out there...


                    I choose no to throw wraps
                    (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period MA
                    works.)

                    Wraps are supported in the Red Branch cycles of Ireland. Specifically the battle with swords and Shields between Cuchulaine and Ferdia describes there injuries as being on the legs and shoulderblades. Clearly they were using wrap shots to bypass the shields and land strikes on the back. So, go ahead and use 'em.

                    Dorje

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jonathan and Rebecca Barber
                    ... Are you referring to this particular passage? Then they took two full-great long-shields upon them for that day. They turned to their heavy, hard-smiting
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                      > > I choose no to throw wraps
                      > > (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period MA
                      > > works.)
                      >
                      > Wraps are supported in the Red Branch cycles of Ireland. Specifically the battle with
                      > swords and Shields between Cuchulaine and Ferdia describes there injuries as being
                      > on the legs and shoulderblades. Clearly they were using wrap shots to bypass the
                      > shields and land strikes on the back. So, go ahead and use 'em.

                      Are you referring to this particular passage?

                      "Then they took two full-great long-shields upon them for that day. They turned to their heavy, hard-smiting swords. Each of them fell to strike and to hew, to lay low and cut down, to slay and undo his fellow, till as large as the head of a month-old child was each lump and each cut, that each of them took from the shoulders and thighs and shoulder-blades of the other."

                      A different translation:
                      "So they took up their great full-length shields, and lifted their heavy, hard-striking swords, and each began to hack and slash at the other, striking and cutting and destroying, till each was covered with lumps of flesh and clots of gore as big as a month-old baby's head, cut from each other's shoulders and backs and sides. They fought like this from dawn's light until sunset."

                      I don't personally think that qualifies as support for the use of the SCA wrap shot; it gives no indication whatsoever for how these wounds were infilcted and it is far from clear (to me anyway) that they were "...using wrap shots to bypass the shields and land strikes on the back".

                      I have yet to see any solid documentation that supports the martial effectiveness of the wrap shot. There's inferential evidence. This bit from an Irish saga; sagas tend to be fairly unreliable as hard evidence though, and I've found more and more that even iconographic evidence for battle scenes can seem...spectacular, especially when they are clearly allegorical in nature. Some archeological evidence from the Wisby site seems to lend itself to the *possibility* that wrap-type shots caused some of the wounds, but without a great deal of time spent by experts who to the best of my knowledge haven't even been consulted it's just conjecture. I've never seen anything conclusive; if anyone has anything they feel is solid I'd love to see it.

                      Jon Barber
                      (I don't use them either, but that's because they don't make sense to me within the fighting systems I study outside the SCA and I try not to play too much to the rules in the SCA)
                    • Chris Laning
                      ... Somehow I don t think that you re likely to get many people saying, Yes, I do something totally inauthentic because it gives me an advantage in fighting
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                        At 1:16 PM +0000 6/9/05, Marc Lauterbach wrote:
                        >However, it seems to me that
                        >instead of attemping to recreate and reenact/copy medieval
                        >tournaments in order to emulate what was done in the past, medieval
                        >combat as we know it in the SCA has found it own little niche in the
                        >recreation world and as such people go out of their way to violate
                        >the spirit of original medieval tournaments/combat in order to give
                        >themselves an advantage in the spots-like world of sca combat.

                        Somehow I don't think that you're likely to get many people saying,
                        "Yes, I do something totally inauthentic because it gives me an
                        advantage in fighting over someone wearing authentic armor" on an
                        authenticity-based list. <g>

                        I actually don't have any idea whether modern equipment _would_ give
                        an advantage, since I don't fight. Does it?

                        On the whole, I would suspect that people's rationale for using
                        modern stuff is probably one or more of the usual reasons: it's what
                        I could find, it's what I could afford, it's the only thing that fits
                        me, I don't have the knowledge to make my own, I need it because of a
                        special vulnerability or past injury, I don't know where to look for
                        something more authentic, or of course the classic "Hey duuuuuuude,
                        isn't this s'posed to be 'bout havin' FUN??!?"
                        --
                        ____________________________________________________________

                        O (Lady) Christian de Holacombe , Shire of Windy Meads
                        + Chris Laning <claning@...>
                        http://paternoster-row.org - http://paternosters.blogspot.com
                        ____________________________________________________________
                      • kittencat3@aol.com
                        Hm. Lady Christian raises a good point: just what advantages *would* someone using modern equipment have over someone with a completely authentic kit? The
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                          Hm. Lady Christian raises a good point: just what advantages *would* someone
                          using modern equipment have over someone with a completely authentic kit?

                          The first one that comes to mind is weight. I've seen a lot of fighters
                          using gambesons made from moving pads, reworked hockey or lacross equipment, and
                          either plastic or leather armor. These are all much lighter than steel, chain,
                          or the medieval/Renaissance jack (three fingers' breadths of linen sandwiched
                          between two layers of canvas, sometimes with steel plates sewn between the
                          quilted channels). The gambesons are also thinner than the medieval versions.
                          All of that adds up to a tremendous advantage for the SCA fighter over the
                          medieval fighter in terms of weight and mobility, not to mention the drain on a
                          fighter's energy after a few hours of sweating into the equipment.

                          It's rather like the difference between the leather and kapok padding worn by
                          hockey players in the Bobby Orr era and the vinyl and foam pads used today.
                          Modern protective equipment weighs less than *half* what the old version does,
                          particularly a goalie's leg pads (up to thirty pounds *apiece* for the old
                          leather versions, which absorbed water from melting ice during play)....

                          Sarah Davies


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Marc Lauterbach
                          Right, and there are ways around that. One example is an Aketon/Gambeson with a few steel splints sewn in the the back for minmum protection. After all,
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                            Right, and there are ways around that. One example is an
                            Aketon/Gambeson with a few steel splints sewn in the the back for
                            minmum protection. After all, there's plenty of evidence that some
                            footsoldiers wore nothing but an Aketon for torso protection. On the
                            other hand, it's probably going to be just as heavy as a golbose
                            plastic breastplate and will protect much less from the ouchy shots
                            (mmm...greatsword to the gut).
                          • lilinah@earthlink.net
                            Bogdan ... Well, i confess i do start the day with coffee, which is plausible when i m in my 16th c. Ottoman garb. But other than that i don t bring chocolate
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jun 9, 2005
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                              Bogdan
                              >It's funny that you asked about armor, since I noticed the same about
                              >food. How there are many many people who are UBER careful about their
                              >clothing, and yet insist on their coffee, coke, and chocolate during the
                              >day.

                              Well, i confess i do start the day with coffee, which is plausible
                              when i'm in my 16th c. Ottoman garb. But other than that i don't
                              bring chocolate to events or have coffee at other times of the day. I
                              hardly ever drink soda - not even once a month - although i have on
                              an occasion or two in the past 6 years begged a Coke off someone
                              during breakdown late on Sunday afternoon when everyone is back in
                              their mundanes. That's when i get exhausted and sunburnt and i guess
                              it's the combo of sugar and caffeine that gives me enough *zip* to
                              get all my crap in my car and drive home safely.

                              I used to cook mostly period food at events, but my back has been
                              especially bad the past year, so i often don't bring my stove or
                              cooler or all the pots and pans. I just eat tuna out of the can
                              moistened with salad dressing... it's cold, it's boring, but at least
                              i'm not injuring myself.

                              Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                              the persona formerly known as Anahita
                              --
                              Soylens Viridis Homines Est!
                            • Despair Bear
                              ... I have to disagree. Yes I think that a dorsal laceration is possible to deliver with a sword but I have found that to deliver such an injury requires a
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jun 11, 2005
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                                --- William Harrington <dorje@...> wrote:

                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: Despair Bear
                                > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Thursday, June 09, 2005 9:33 AM
                                > Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] For all you authentic
                                > junky-fighters out there...
                                >
                                >
                                > I choose no to throw wraps
                                > (I do no belithinkt they are supported by period
                                > MA
                                > works.)
                                >
                                > Wraps are supported in the Red Branch cycles of
                                > Ireland. Specifically the battle with swords and
                                > Shields between Cuchulaine and Ferdia describes
                                > there injuries as being on the legs and
                                > shoulderblades. Clearly they were using wrap shots
                                > to bypass the shields and land strikes on the back.
                                > So, go ahead and use 'em.
                                >
                                > Dorje
                                >

                                I have to disagree. Yes I think that a dorsal
                                laceration is possible to deliver with a sword but I
                                have found that to deliver such an injury requires a
                                slicing motion not a "hewing" motion such as is
                                delivered with an sca sword. Slicing is not effective
                                in sca combat due to the nature of the game we play
                                just as many aspects of combat are no part of the game
                                we play. Now it is possable for a wrap delivered in
                                the sca manner to be effective with other wepaons I
                                think, for example a mace or possibly a hammer.
                                Weapons with more head mass than a bladed wepaon tends
                                to have.

                                Having said that, I have nothing aginst wraps used by
                                other people, it is simply not part of the game "I"
                                play. I also take arrow hit in any location (in
                                referance to west kingdom plate is proof rules), I do
                                not belive that the armor worn in my period would stop
                                an arrow so I don't let it. Again just the way I play
                                my game.


                                Godric Of Castlemont


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                              • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                In a message dated 6/9/2005 12:54:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jun 11, 2005
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                                  In a message dated 6/9/2005 12:54:14 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                  Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                  <<So my question is, how far do you
                                  take your authenticity on the field? Do you wear fully period mild
                                  steel armour, stainless and/or leather, or modern "sports" armour? >>

                                  I don't fight, but speaking for my husband, he's been working on getting his
                                  harness more authentic. At this point he has a very authentic 14th century
                                  rig that he wears primarily for demos and tourney company events, and a
                                  somewhat less authentic (or at least less elaborate; overall he still looks like
                                  he stepped off a tomb brass), but still much more so than the average joe,
                                  harness that he wears for standard SCA fighting. A lot of his stuff is mild; he
                                  makes sure to oil it after each use.
                                  He's also been doing a lot of work towards learning more period fighting
                                  styles and using them when he can.

                                  Brangwayna
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