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Help! Please? re: Alcega corded farthingale

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  • msgilliandurham
    Okay, I m swallowing my pride and asking for help. I ve spent essentially the entire Memorial Day weekend trying to put together an Alcega corded farthingale,
    Message 1 of 9 , May 31 7:36 PM
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      Okay, I'm swallowing my pride and asking for help.

      I've spent essentially the entire Memorial Day weekend trying to put
      together an Alcega corded farthingale, and I can't get it right.

      I'm using muslin for the fabric. I've tried using sisal rope for the
      cording, and am now using a double strand of 12/16" upholstery
      cording. I've made the channels in the folds small, so that the
      cording is quite tight and stiff. I've staggered the joins in the
      cording, so that each hoop is joined on a different seam of the
      skirt.

      And the $#@*!!!!! hoops keep *buckling*!! Instead of being nice oval
      hoops, they dip in every so often. And not even in the same place
      all the way up the skirt, and the dips don't seem to have anything
      to do with the joins in the cording -- they are between the seams.

      I have never read of anyone else having this problem. If anyone here
      can help me, could you please contact me offlist, so we can discuss
      this?

      I was hoping to have this done for Meridies A&S next weekend (not to
      enter, just to wear) but at this point I'll settle for knowing what
      I'm doing wrong, because it's making me *nuts*!!

      Much thanks in advance --

      Gillian Durham
    • Adele de Maisieres
      ... ... I think what you re doing wrong is trying to use rope or cord. I believe Juan de Alcega was assuming that you would use something quite a bit
      Message 2 of 9 , May 31 9:53 PM
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        msgilliandurham wrote:

        >Okay, I'm swallowing my pride and asking for help.
        >
        >I've spent essentially the entire Memorial Day weekend trying to put
        >together an Alcega corded farthingale, and I can't get it right.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        <snip!>

        >And the $#@*!!!!! hoops keep *buckling*!! Instead of being nice oval
        >hoops, they dip in every so often. And not even in the same place
        >all the way up the skirt, and the dips don't seem to have anything
        >to do with the joins in the cording -- they are between the seams.
        >
        >I have never read of anyone else having this problem. If anyone here
        >can help me, could you please contact me offlist, so we can discuss
        >this?
        >
        >
        >

        I think what you're doing wrong is trying to use rope or cord. I
        believe Juan de Alcega was assuming that you would use something quite a
        bit sturdier, like willow bents, for the hoops. It is possible to make
        a fairly rigid rope-stiffened petticoat, but you need to have _lots_ of
        channels, not just the (4? 5?) specified by Alcega.

        --
        Adele de Maisieres

        -----------------------------
        Quot homines, tot sententiae.
        -----------------------------
      • Katherine Throckmorton
        ... This may have to do with the weight of the fabric and/or the materials that you are using for the cording. I have a corded petticoat made out of cotton
        Message 3 of 9 , May 31 11:28 PM
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          Gillian wrote:
          >
          > I'm using muslin for the fabric. I've tried using sisal rope for the
          > cording, and am now using a double strand of 12/16" upholstery
          > cording.
          > And the $#@*!!!!! hoops keep *buckling*!! Instead of being nice oval
          > hoops, they dip in every so often.

          This may have to do with the weight of the fabric and/or the materials that you are using for the cording. I have a corded petticoat made out of cotton sheeting corded with sisal that I use for ACW, and it does the same buckling thing is driving you nuts.
          I'd try using a mid-wieght linen for the body of the farthingale. If you are going for a super-stiff farthingale, you might try using some sort of caning instead of cording.
          On the other hand, I've found that with my corded petticoat, if I starch the crap out of it and wear a petticoat or two over the top that the bucking dosen't really have a negative effect on the shape of the skirt. If anything, the buckling adds to the "poof" factor.

          -Katherine



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        • Mary Taran
          ... I ve never tried one, but I ve seen some made by this method: http://costume.dm.net/cordpett.html --don t forget to follow the Lisa s Tips link within
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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            At 11:28 PM 5/31/2005, you wrote:

            >Gillian wrote:
            > >
            > > I'm using muslin for the fabric. I've tried using sisal rope for the
            > > cording, and am now using a double strand of 12/16" upholstery
            > > cording.
            > > And the $#@*!!!!! hoops keep *buckling*!! Instead of being nice oval
            > > hoops, they dip in every so often.


            I've never tried one, but I've seen some made by this
            method: http://costume.dm.net/cordpett.html --don't forget to follow the
            "Lisa's Tips" link within the page.

            Mary Taran


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          • msgilliandurham
            My thanks for the input I ve received. More questions, for anyone with experience of the garment referenced below: If I m correctly reading the directions at
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 5, 2005
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              My thanks for the input I've received. More questions, for anyone
              with experience of the garment referenced below:

              If I'm correctly reading the directions at the URL below, this
              farthingale is not shaped -- that is, the skirk is a tube, not a cone?
              (Certainly would make it easier to get the cording tucks
              parallel ...) Am I right on this?

              How do you *transport* such a garment once it is stiffly starched?
              Can you collapse it into one circle along the welts, as you can a
              skirt with metal hoops?

              Gillian (who has no expectations of being able to *drive* in this
              thing, but since I can't walk to events...) Durham

              > At 11:28 PM 5/31/2005, Gillian wrote:
              >
              > >Gillian wrote:
              > > > And the $#@*!!!!! hoops keep *buckling*!! Instead of being nice
              > > > oval hoops, they dip in every so often.
              >
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Mary Taran <marytaran@a...>
              wrote:
              > I've never tried one, but I've seen some made by this
              > method: http://costume.dm.net/cordpett.html --don't forget to
              follow the
              > "Lisa's Tips" link within the page.
              >
              > Mary Taran
              >
              >
              > --
              > No virus found in this outgoing message.
              > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
              > Version: 7.0.322 / Virus Database: 267.3.0 - Release Date: 5/30/2005
            • Adele de Maisieres
              ... The only period pattern for a farthingale I mnow of is Juan de Alcega s, and it is a cone. ... Yup, collapse it. And you could probably save yourself the
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 5, 2005
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                msgilliandurham wrote:

                >If I'm correctly reading the directions at the URL below, this
                >farthingale is not shaped -- that is, the skirk is a tube, not a cone?
                >(Certainly would make it easier to get the cording tucks
                >parallel ...) Am I right on this?
                >
                >

                The only period pattern for a farthingale I mnow of is Juan de Alcega's,
                and it is a cone.

                >How do you *transport* such a garment once it is stiffly starched?
                >Can you collapse it into one circle along the welts, as you can a
                >skirt with metal hoops?
                >
                >
                Yup, collapse it. And you could probably save yourself the trouble of
                starching it, too.

                Adele d'M
              • Katherine Throckmorton
                ... This is correct. It does give a slighly more bell than cone shaped look. This isn t a problem if you are going for a slightly lower class look, but if
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 6, 2005
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                  Gillian wrote:
                  >
                  > If I'm correctly reading the directions at the URL below, this
                  > farthingale is not shaped -- that is, the skirk is a tube, not a cone?
                  > (Certainly would make it easier to get the cording tucks
                  > parallel ...) Am I right on this?

                  This is correct. It does give a slighly more bell than cone shaped look. This isn't a problem if you are going for a slightly lower class look, but if you want to replicate the really stiff, extreme cone farthingales I don't reccomend this pattern.
                  >
                  > How do you *transport* such a garment once it is stiffly starched?
                  > Can you collapse it into one circle along the welts, as you can a
                  > skirt with metal hoops?

                  I haven't tried that, but it might work. If I need to store mine, I usually store it on a hanger in the closet. Although I can't speak about driving in the thing, riding in a stiffly starched corded petticoat is quite possible. Even starched heavily, the petticoat compacts pretty well.

                  I do highly reccomend starching, as it reduces buckling a bit, and increases the skirt-holding-out-ability of the petticoat.

                  -Katherine

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                • m d b
                  ... quite a ... make ... _lots_ of ... Where in Alcega is the 4-5 hoops mentioned? It s not in the translated section, there s no mention of the number of
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 12, 2005
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                    > I think what you're doing wrong is trying to use rope or cord. I
                    > believe Juan de Alcega was assuming that you would use something
                    quite a
                    > bit sturdier, like willow bents, for the hoops. It is possible to
                    make
                    > a fairly rigid rope-stiffened petticoat, but you need to have
                    _lots_ of
                    > channels, not just the (4? 5?) specified by Alcega.


                    Where in Alcega is the 4-5 hoops mentioned? It's not in the
                    translated section, there's no mention of the number of hoops
                    required. As far as I know the 4-5 hoops is a modern choice for the
                    main part. All the images of hoops I've seen and found texts for* use
                    more than that. I managed to get 7 or 8 getting the hoops up as high
                    as possible (to just below the hips) as I was going for the very
                    rigid Spanish style, and images show the hoops going right up! I
                    could have got more in, but was struggling with the materials as it
                    was.

                    The rope is only ever going to give a soft line, even if it's done as
                    19thC cording was done (no gaps between each channel.) The buckling
                    it as much a part of the technique as anything else, or so I've been
                    told by people who have made starched and corded petticoats. I'm
                    possibly going to be making a finely corded one to wear under my
                    c1848 dress as it gives this softly rounded shape.

                    For my farthingale (which is currently dismantled least I glare at it
                    even more than it rightly deserves I used willow wands. And if you do
                    decide on willow, go for ready made caning;) Seriously, it'll be much
                    more even. Mine will be re-hooped with whalebone substitute seeing as
                    I found more references to whalebone than anything else.

                    To get the cone I use the Alcega pattern as is to make the test,
                    which creates many puckers and folds simply not seen in the artwork
                    I've looked at. So I took my cue from Alcega in terms of approximate
                    shaping and draped the lining over the test to get a much more fitted
                    cone. I suspect you aren't supposed to use the "patterns" as is, as
                    many pieces simply do not match in the book;)

                    So advice from over here is:
                    If you want a soft support, slightly more dome shaped then cording
                    will be fine, and your buckling is a natural effect.

                    If you want a cone shaped support, either use Alcega as is and put
                    tucks on the inside, as it really does help the skirt lay smoothly
                    over the hoops.
                    Or make a more fitted cone by tweaking Alcega to make a more
                    documented type of support.

                    michaela de bruce,
                    Willemyne van Nymegen
                    http://costumes.glittersweet.com


                    *at some point I worked out how many hoops one could get from the
                    measurements given in Corsets and Crinolines in various texts.
                  • Adele de Maisieres
                    ... OK, going with Drea Leeds article on the subject Alcega s pattern description and accompanying diagram included five casings plus one casing in the hem at
                    Message 9 of 9 , Jun 12, 2005
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                      m d b wrote:

                      >>I think what you're doing wrong is trying to use rope or cord. I
                      >>believe Juan de Alcega was assuming that you would use something
                      >>
                      >>
                      >quite a
                      >
                      >
                      >>bit sturdier, like willow bents, for the hoops. It is possible to
                      >>
                      >>
                      >make
                      >
                      >
                      >>a fairly rigid rope-stiffened petticoat, but you need to have
                      >>
                      >>
                      >_lots_ of
                      >
                      >
                      >>channels, not just the (4? 5?) specified by Alcega.
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >Where in Alcega is the 4-5 hoops mentioned? It's not in the
                      >translated section, there's no mention of the number of hoops
                      >required. As far as I know the 4-5 hoops is a modern choice for the
                      >main part.
                      >

                      OK, going with Drea Leeds article on the subject "Alcega's pattern
                      description and accompanying diagram included five casings plus one
                      casing in the hem at the bottom." That's a total of 6, which is more
                      than 4-5, but less that "lots".

                      --
                      Adele de Maisieres

                      -----------------------------
                      Quot homines, tot sententiae.
                      -----------------------------
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