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Re: Climate

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  • Marc Lauterbach
    Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God. I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the WESTERN European
    Message 1 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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      Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God.
      I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the
      WESTERN European landmass and its situation with regards to its
      geographic placement with say...oh I don't know, a similar chunk of the
      United States from Nevada to Ohio, you will find that Europe has milder
      temperatures. I of course can't speak for areas of non-Latin Europe
      such as Russia which are similarly massive. Water has a cooling effect
      rendering the weather in Europe more mild than here in the good ol'
      USA. Are there similarities? Of course there are. Of course the
      vikings wore different Garb than the Sicilians, I never implied
      anything of the sort. However, anyone who thinks that nothing has
      changed weather-wise around the world since the High middle ages might
      want to try living off the land in Greenland for a few years. Good
      luck with those oats ;)
    • Marc Carlson
      ... Oh certainly - haven t you ever heard of the Great European Sea? All the way from the Scandinavian Islands, past the Rus/Gulag Archipelago, down to
      Message 2 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Pease" <wandap@h...> wrote:
        > Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get my
        > Hammond Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between
        > 1000 and 2000. Nope, Europe was still part of Eur-Asia then too.
        > Switzerland, Hungary, Bohemia, Bavaria, Wallachia (Hi Vlad!),
        > Serbia and most of the German and Austrian states were firmly
        > landlocked...

        Oh certainly - haven't you ever heard of the Great European Sea? All
        the way from the Scandinavian Islands, past the Rus/Gulag Archipelago,
        down to Constantinople and the Black Bay. Those other countries only
        existed after the continent rose up in the 19th century. That's why
        you never see anything written about their history in English. They
        didn't have any...

        *ahem*

        > Usually we get these arguments about changes in climate, or
        > differences because someone wants to prove that it is really
        > impossible to wear western European medieval fashions because they
        > re unsuitable for their climate, and that no climate in western
        > Europe duplicated their area.

        Just remind them that wool was a common cloth for clothing pretty much
        everywhere in the southern US long before the advent of air
        conditioning, and to stop whining about it :)

        Marc/Diarmaid
      • Marc Carlson
        ... I beg to differ. The Little Ice Age (which BTW followed the Medieval Warm Period ) began roughly around 1350 and stretched to the Mid-19th century
        Message 3 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret
          Hepburn" <malvoisine@y...> wrote:
          > One other thing to take into consideration. Mid 16th century, parts
          > of Europe go through what is referred to as a mini ice age. For
          > almost a hundred years, it's colder & wetter than it had been
          > previously. But this changed again in the 17th century - the
          > weather in parts of Europe today, does not have anything to do with
          > the weather in SCA period....

          I beg to differ.

          The "Little Ice Age" (which BTW followed the "Medieval Warm Period")
          began roughly around 1350 and stretched to the Mid-19th century
          (although exactly WHEN seems to depend on which gague you are using to
          make the determination), although the colder and wetter aspects
          started well before (for example, it's probable that the storms that
          drowned much of the Netherlands in 1315 were an early sign of things
          to come).

          However, you are right, the years for peak cold were between 1500 and
          1700 (although the latter 14th century had some remarkably cold years).

          Marc/Diarmaid
        • Marc Lauterbach
          Actually, I found a fascinating website from the USDA that has a map of Europe s climactic zones and comparisons with the weather in avrious areas of the
          Message 4 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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            Actually, I found a fascinating website from the USDA that has a map
            of Europe's climactic zones and comparisons with the weather in avrious
            areas of the United States. How similar the modern European climate is
            to what it was like in the middle ages is of course anybody's guess,
            however I would venture to say that on the whole the average
            temperatures during the high middle ages were probably a few degrees
            celcius warmer.
            http://www.usda.gov/oce/waob/jawf/profiles/html/eur/eurclim.htm
          • Wanda Pease
            Mark, What a nifty site! Thank you! The remark about Europe being completely surrounded by water just struck my funny bone. Certainly did not mean my answer
            Message 5 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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              Mark,

              What a nifty site! Thank you!


              The remark about Europe being completely surrounded by water just struck
              my funny bone. Certainly did not mean my answer as a put down. Climates
              have fluxgate by quite a bit in the last 2,000 years or so. Your Greenland
              analogy is well taken. Check out "Woven Into the Earth" as a good example
              of the shifts that Greenlanders had to make over their 1000 year history.

              Actually, the Vikings (or those whose job description was "viking") did
              dress differently when they got to Sicily, or even Byzantium. However they
              were the sea peoples. My question of your statement also comes when you get
              into Europe, away from the sea coasts. This is why I mention Bavaria,
              Bohemia, most of what we now call Germany and Austria. I live in Portland,
              Oregon. I lived in Frankfurt am Main, Germany for many years. The climate
              here is very similar. Lots of Rain (capital R) and very little snow.
              Portland is at 45 degrees and Frankfurt is at 50 degrees latitude.
              Frankfurt is a ways away from the ocean, but on the Main River.

              Yes things have changed in Europe. Yes places in the US are different
              climatically than England, Italy and Greece. However, each of those places
              has occasional HOT Muggy summers (2002 comes to mind).

              As I said, usually the excuse that the US has different climates is to
              enable people to run around in completely inauthentic "for their persona"
              garb rather than research and make what they would really have worn or done.

              Regina
              -----Original Message-----
              From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Marc Lauterbach
              Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 9:40 AM
              To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Climate


              Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God.
              I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the
              WESTERN European landmass and its situation with regards to its
              geographic placement with say...oh I don't know, a similar chunk of the
              United States from Nevada to Ohio, you will find that Europe has milder
              temperatures. I of course can't speak for areas of non-Latin Europe
              such as Russia which are similarly massive. Water has a cooling effect
              rendering the weather in Europe more mild than here in the good ol'
              USA. Are there similarities? Of course there are. Of course the
              vikings wore different Garb than the Sicilians, I never implied
              anything of the sort. However, anyone who thinks that nothing has
              changed weather-wise around the world since the High middle ages might
              want to try living off the land in Greenland for a few years. Good
              luck with those oats ;)








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            • Marc Lauterbach
              Hi again. My apologies if I sounded defensive, I didn t mean to come off that way at all :) I m glad you like the site and yes, I totally agree that too many
              Message 6 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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                Hi again. My apologies if I sounded defensive, I didn't mean to come
                off that way at all :) I'm glad you like the site and yes, I totally
                agree that too many people use the excuse "well America is too hot to
                wear wool" to get away with sloppy costuming. I have done both WWI and
                Rev War reenacting in addition to SCA stuff, so I hear it all the
                time ;) In any case, my response to those people is that usually linen
                and wool are actually nicer than many modern fabrics. When we do our
                thing at Colonial Williamsburg and ppl ask us if we're hot my response
                is generally "yes, but probably not as hot. at least my clothes
                breath." So I apologize for any misunderstanding! :)
                Best Regards,
                Marc
              • julian wilson
                Greetings, good Gentles All, Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next year. Some of our Companions who haven t
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 18, 2005
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                  Greetings, good Gentles All,
                  Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next year. Some of our Companions who haven't yet worked-up little exhibits of their own, do play chess. And with Caxton's 1474 translation & printing in English of the "Gayme and Playe of Chesse" - [which by all accounts I have read so far, turned into a mediæval "best-seller"]; - it would be entirely appropriate for some of our Group to play a game or two of chess as a mini-display before the MoP.
                  The problem is that - despite extensive internet researches - and I freely admit I'm probably using the wrong " search words" - I cannot find any examples of mediævaL period sets apart from the one "everyone" seems to cite - the isle of Lewis chessmen.
                  Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                  And surely, - with so many mediæval re-enactors worldwide - some merchant[s] si/are offering other replica sets at prices that won't require we "mortgage our souls" in order to acquire such a thing?
                  There are lots of other "in-period" games available, and we've bought-in some of those; we've even bought-in replica sets of mediæval playing cards - 4 different designs if I recal correctly. But no-one knows how to play the games in the accompanying instructions.
                  At least with Chess, a number of Companions already know how to play, - and so all we'd need is "in-period" Chessmen.
                  But other mediæval-chessmen replicas than those from the Isle of Lewis "find"? - Zilch !
                  If any Listers also know of a modern replica-reprint of the Caxton book - we'd also like to have details, so that we can try to obtain a copy, for display. Yes, I know about the Project Gutenberg online version - but I'm hoping someone has done a not-to-expensive "replica reprint" that won't look too anachronistic, on-show by the Chess players.
                  If Listers can suggest possible sources of supply for either or both items, our Companions will be very grateful.

                  Peace be with you All, this Feast of St. Anselm; and God's Benison be upon your Houses and your Works now, - and until The Judgement.







                  Yours in service,
                  Julian Wilson,
                  [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
                  late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
                  "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                  [the only medieval living-history Group
                  in "olde" Jersey]

                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • lenastrid
                  I have never seen any chessmen set except the Lewis one. Perhaps your best bet is to ask museums for images of any chessmen they have (dated to the period of
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 19, 2005
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                    I have never seen any chessmen set except the Lewis one. Perhaps your best bet is to ask
                    museums for images of any chessmen they have (dated to the period of your choice), and
                    see if there are any bone/woodworker that can make replicas for you.

                    But if you do find somewhere that sells medieval replicas, let us know. I'm sure there are
                    more than you out there that are interested.

                    /Lena


                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings, good Gentles All,
                    > Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next
                    year. Some of our Companions who haven't yet worked-up little exhibits of their own, do
                    play chess. And with Caxton's 1474 translation & printing in English of the "Gayme and
                    Playe of Chesse" - [which by all accounts I have read so far, turned into a mediæval "best-
                    seller"]; - it would be entirely appropriate for some of our Group to play a game or two of
                    chess as a mini-display before the MoP.
                    > The problem is that - despite extensive internet researches - and I freely admit I'm
                    probably using the wrong " search words" - I cannot find any examples of mediævaL
                    period sets apart from the one "everyone" seems to cite - the isle of Lewis chessmen.
                    > Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                    > And surely, - with so many mediæval re-enactors worldwide - some merchant[s] si/
                    are offering other replica sets at prices that won't require we "mortgage our souls" in order
                    to acquire such a thing?
                    > There are lots of other "in-period" games available, and we've bought-in some of
                    those; we've even bought-in replica sets of mediæval playing cards - 4 different designs if
                    I recal correctly. But no-one knows how to play the games in the accompanying
                    instructions.
                    > At least with Chess, a number of Companions already know how to play, - and so all
                    we'd need is "in-period" Chessmen.
                    > But other mediæval-chessmen replicas than those from the Isle of Lewis "find"? - Zilch
                    !
                    > If any Listers also know of a modern replica-reprint of the Caxton book - we'd also like
                    to have details, so that we can try to obtain a copy, for display. Yes, I know about the
                    Project Gutenberg online version - but I'm hoping someone has done a not-to-expensive
                    "replica reprint" that won't look too anachronistic, on-show by the Chess players.
                    > If Listers can suggest possible sources of supply for either or both items, our
                    Companions will be very grateful.
                    >
                    > Peace be with you All, this Feast of St. Anselm; and God's Benison be upon your Houses
                    and your Works now, - and until The Judgement.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yours in service,
                    > Julian Wilson,
                    > [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey,
                    1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
                    > late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
                    > "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                    > [the only medieval living-history Group
                    > in "olde" Jersey]
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • wodeford
                    ... Entire sets? Individual pieces pop up in museum collections. I found these by Googling medieval chess. While I had to wade through some shlock, I did
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 19, 2005
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@y...> wrote:
                      > Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                      Entire sets? Individual pieces pop up in museum collections.
                      I found these by Googling "medieval chess." While I had to wade
                      through some shlock, I did find these links which might be of use:

                      http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=W23-9002 has a reproduction
                      set which for once is not the Lewis chessmen, though it's
                      stylistically similar.

                      http://www.chesscentral.com/sets-pieces-chess/chess-pieces.htm

                      http://www.crumiller.com/chess/chess_pages/chess_medieval_pieces.htm

                      http://history.chess.free.fr/findings.htm which includes images of a
                      marvelous French set from St. Denis, complete with elephants! I'd
                      never seen these before.

                      Cheers,
                      Jehanne de Wodeford, West Kingdom
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