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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Hooded cloaks

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  • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
    ... Most works on Celtic mythology seem to have a picture of the sculpture or relief of The Hooded Ones, three figures in hooded cloaks. If I recall it is
    Message 1 of 6 , May 2, 2005
      --- DawnsHebog@... wrote:
      > I know that the Kinsale cloak is a very early hooded
      > cloak (700s Ireland I
      > believe), but does anyone know the appearance of the
      > first hooded cloak?

      Most works on Celtic mythology seem to have a picture
      of the sculpture or relief of The Hooded Ones, three
      figures in hooded cloaks. If I recall it is
      Roman-Gaulish or Roman-British. And Norris lists the
      paenula as a hooded cloak worn by the Romans, who
      borrowed it from Greek peasants. The ecclesiastical
      alb has an attached hood, and this may well derive
      from Roman vestments.

      Okay, here it is...Alexander Neckham in the 12th
      cnetury wrote: "Let one who is about to ride have a
      chape with sleeves, of which the hood will not mind
      the weather."

      I don't know if any of this is helpful, but it may
      provide a beginning. And I'm sure someone better
      versed will correct my deficiencies.

      Andrea

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    • Kevin Myers
      A hooded cloak IMHO does not equal a Kinsale Cloak. The Kinsale was full, voluminous and had lots of pleats. The written evidence from that period (7th-8th
      Message 2 of 6 , May 2, 2005
        A hooded cloak IMHO does not equal a Kinsale Cloak.
        The Kinsale was full, voluminous and had lots of pleats. The written
        evidence from that period (7th-8th Cent.) shows people wearing a
        garment called a 'brat' which was a large rectangle or square of wool
        (maybe sometimes a half or semi-circle also, and also sometimes maybe
        of linen). This garment did not have a hood per se, but was large
        enough to be drawn up over the head. The brat was worn and exported to
        England through the end of the 16th century.

        There was a hooded garment that was worn--see the Orkney Hood. I think
        the irish version is called a 'Fallaing'. It's no where's near a
        Kinsale in style or size--more of a hooded mantle or poncho. Now, as to
        the roman hooded cloak--there is pictorial reference I've seen to
        clergy wearing it, those three hooded figures on that stone carving are
        also carrying croziers aren't they? There is also a pictish carving (I
        think it's pictish) of a figure riding a small horse and he's wearing a
        hooded cape-like garment. I say cape because it is hard to tell how
        long it really is because of the horse. It could be a large fallaing.

        Hooded mantles came into wider use in Ireland after the Norman invasion
        of the mid 12th century.

        Refer to McClintock, "Old Irish and Highland Dress"; and to J. Telfer
        Dunbar "Highland Dress". Also, take a look at the Book of Kells, the
        figures in it show a large mantle wrapped around the shoulders without
        a hood--this is the brat.

        A brat is also far easier to make. It was pinned with a brooch, usually
        annular or pennannular. As a brooch is mentioned in the 7th or 8th
        century law tract 'Crith Gablach' as being a requirement of status for
        a person of the Aire-deso (or Aire-Ard) rank (I don't have the sources
        to hand right now), it was worth an ounce (of what they don't specify).
        (See Fergus Kelly's Early Irish Farming for further breakdown of values
        and equivalencies)

        I'm curious to know who Alexander Neckham was, where was he
        writing/what context was he situated in (I'm presuming English)?
        Is a chape a cloak? He mentions sleeves.
        There was a lot of change between the 7th century and the 12th century.

        -Cainnech
        --- Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg <huwydd@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- DawnsHebog@... wrote:
        > > I know that the Kinsale cloak is a very early hooded
        > > cloak (700s Ireland I
        > > believe), but does anyone know the appearance of the
        > > first hooded cloak?
        >
        > Most works on Celtic mythology seem to have a picture
        > of the sculpture or relief of The Hooded Ones, three
        > figures in hooded cloaks. If I recall it is
        > Roman-Gaulish or Roman-British. And Norris lists the
        > paenula as a hooded cloak worn by the Romans, who
        > borrowed it from Greek peasants. The ecclesiastical
        > alb has an attached hood, and this may well derive
        > from Roman vestments.
        >
        > Okay, here it is...Alexander Neckham in the 12th
        > cnetury wrote: "Let one who is about to ride have a
        > chape with sleeves, of which the hood will not mind
        > the weather."
        >
        > I don't know if any of this is helpful, but it may
        > provide a beginning. And I'm sure someone better
        > versed will correct my deficiencies.
        >
        > Andrea
        >
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      • Heather Rose Jones
        ... As others have mentioned, I believe you ve lost a 1 from the date of the Kinsale cloak. Hooded cloaks seem to have gone in and out of fashion several
        Message 3 of 6 , May 2, 2005
          At 9:47 PM -0400 4/29/05, DawnsHebog@... wrote:
          >I know that the Kinsale cloak is a very early hooded cloak (700s Ireland I
          >believe), but does anyone know the appearance of the first hooded cloak?
          >And/or the first appearance of hooded cloak in Wales, or Britain?
          >I know of the brats, and leines, and nine yard wraps that supposedly became
          >kilts, but am specifically looking for hooded cloaks.

          As others have mentioned, I believe you've lost a "1" from the date
          of the Kinsale cloak.

          Hooded cloaks seem to have gone in and out of fashion several times
          over the ages. There was a relatively long hooded cloak that shows
          up in Roman-era sculpture and descriptions, but it seems to have
          fallen out of fashion with the fall of the empire and by the medieval
          period you get a combination of un-hooded long cloaks combined with a
          hood with a relatively short capelet (just over the shoulders). I
          think full-length hooded cloaks come back into fashion around the
          17th century, but this is a bit late for me, so I'm less familiar
          with the specifics.

          What evidence I've seen from Wales follows this same pattern.

          Tangwystyl
          --
          --
          Heather Rose Jones
          heather.jones@...
        • Marc Lauterbach
          I don t know how relevant this is, but there is plenty of evidence for outer garments with integral hoods in the time period you specify. However, whether or
          Message 4 of 6 , May 3, 2005
            I don't know how relevant this is, but there is plenty of evidence
            for outer garments with integral hoods in the time period you specify.
            However, whether or not these are the sorts of "cloaks" you're
            interested in, I don't know. For the most part they seem to be sleeved
            or slit-sleeved gardecorps or overtunics with hoods. An example of
            what I'm talking about can be seen in the two bottom panels of this
            illustration. Also the second panel down on the left side appears to
            show something akin to a poncho with a hood on it (the gentleman with
            the red-orange garment and the white coif following Christ. This
            manuscript is dated c. 1240 and is French.

            http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0714834521/ref=sib_rdr_zmin/102-0897788-
            7816139?p=S001&j=1#reader-page

            Hope that helps!
            regards,
            Matthaeus
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