Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

RE: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Climate

Expand Messages
  • Wanda Pease
    Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get my Hammond Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between 1000 and 2000. Nope,
    Message 1 of 15 , May 1, 2005
      Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get my Hammond
      Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between 1000 and 2000.
      Nope, Europe was still part of Eur-Asia then too. Switzerland, Hungary,
      Bohemia, Bavaria, Wallachia (Hi Vlad!), Serbia and most of the German and
      Austrian states were firmly landlocked. I suspect that the climate had a
      lot more to do with the fact that the currents in the oceans that touch
      Europe are different than those that hit eastern America. This means that
      New York, Boston, and other places where the British soldiers didn't feel
      comfortable, but were on the sea coast had different climates than England
      (which _is_ completely surrounded by ocean. (Okay, so
      England/Scotland/Wales is surrounded by water)

      When it comes to truly nasty Florida like weather, Italy, especially Rome,
      can stand proudly with anyone who claims hot and humid. Even the Texas Cost
      :-)

      Usually we get these arguments about changes in climate, or differences
      because someone wants to prove that it is really impossible to wear western
      European medieval fashions because they re unsuitable for their climate, and
      that no climate in western Europe duplicated their area.

      Regina ("Climate is what you expect. Weather is what you get")
      -----Original Message-----
      From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Marc Lauterbach
      Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 7:23 PM
      To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Climate


      *warning: I am not a meteorologist by any stretch of the imagination*

      Weather is different in Europe from American in many different ways.
      First and foremost, Europe is surrounded entirely by water and has a
      much smaller landmass compared to N. America. This has the effect of
      making weather as a whole generally milder.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
      One other thing to take into consideration. Mid 16th century, parts of Europe go through what is referred to as a mini ice age. For almost a hundred years,
      Message 2 of 15 , May 2, 2005
        One other thing to take into consideration. Mid 16th century, parts
        of Europe go through what is referred to as a mini ice age. For
        almost a hundred years, it's colder & wetter than it had been
        previously. But this changed again in the 17th century - the weather
        in parts of Europe today, does not have anything to do with the
        weather in SCA period.... But this 'mini ice age' had a trickle down
        effect on a number of things, including famines & spread of disease.

        Also to consider, the British Isles are farther north latitudinally
        than most of the east coast of North America, the weather, time zone
        etc, is much more analogous at times to what you get in Canada &
        parts of Alaska.

        Europe did not have milder weather by any stretch of the
        imagination. Please remember, when you say Europe that includes
        Southern Italy, Malta, Greece, Findo-Scandia, etc. You've got LOTS
        of temperature extremes, from snow to arid, dry plains to balmy
        Mediterranean Islands. 16th century Maltese fashions, for instance,
        take into consideration the heat & humidity - a lot of linen, a lot
        of veils & coverings to keep the sun off, whereas in the
        Scandinavian nations, you have a lot of utilization of native
        leathers & furs in addition to wools - what works to keep the
        animals warm is used for the humans - but a Maltese wouldn't wear
        the same winter clothes as a Finn, any more than a Colonial American
        (and remember, you've got climate extremes just on the East Coast of
        the US!) would wear the same as a Southern Italian or a Highland
        Scot.

        For the record, I wear my wools & linen just fine in the very hot,
        very dry Eastern New Mexico summers.....

        Cheers,
        Margaret Hepburn

        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Pease" <wandap@h...>
        wrote:
        > Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get
        my Hammond
        > Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between 1000 and
        2000.
        > Nope, Europe was still part of Eur-Asia then too. Switzerland,
        Hungary,
        > Bohemia, Bavaria, Wallachia (Hi Vlad!), Serbia and most of the
        German and
        > Austrian states were firmly landlocked. I suspect that the
        climate had a
        > lot more to do with the fact that the currents in the oceans that
        touch
        > Europe are different than those that hit eastern America. This
        means that
        > New York, Boston, and other places where the British soldiers
        didn't feel
        > comfortable, but were on the sea coast had different climates than
        England
        > (which _is_ completely surrounded by ocean. (Okay, so
        > England/Scotland/Wales is surrounded by water)
        >
        > When it comes to truly nasty Florida like weather, Italy,
        especially Rome,
        > can stand proudly with anyone who claims hot and humid. Even the
        Texas Cost
        > :-)
        >
        > Usually we get these arguments about changes in climate, or
        differences
        > because someone wants to prove that it is really impossible to
        wear western
        > European medieval fashions because they re unsuitable for their
        climate, and
        > that no climate in western Europe duplicated their area.
        >
        > Regina ("Climate is what you expect. Weather is what you get")
      • Marc Lauterbach
        Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God. I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the WESTERN European
        Message 3 of 15 , May 2, 2005
          Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God.
          I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the
          WESTERN European landmass and its situation with regards to its
          geographic placement with say...oh I don't know, a similar chunk of the
          United States from Nevada to Ohio, you will find that Europe has milder
          temperatures. I of course can't speak for areas of non-Latin Europe
          such as Russia which are similarly massive. Water has a cooling effect
          rendering the weather in Europe more mild than here in the good ol'
          USA. Are there similarities? Of course there are. Of course the
          vikings wore different Garb than the Sicilians, I never implied
          anything of the sort. However, anyone who thinks that nothing has
          changed weather-wise around the world since the High middle ages might
          want to try living off the land in Greenland for a few years. Good
          luck with those oats ;)
        • Marc Carlson
          ... Oh certainly - haven t you ever heard of the Great European Sea? All the way from the Scandinavian Islands, past the Rus/Gulag Archipelago, down to
          Message 4 of 15 , May 2, 2005
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Pease" <wandap@h...> wrote:
            > Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get my
            > Hammond Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between
            > 1000 and 2000. Nope, Europe was still part of Eur-Asia then too.
            > Switzerland, Hungary, Bohemia, Bavaria, Wallachia (Hi Vlad!),
            > Serbia and most of the German and Austrian states were firmly
            > landlocked...

            Oh certainly - haven't you ever heard of the Great European Sea? All
            the way from the Scandinavian Islands, past the Rus/Gulag Archipelago,
            down to Constantinople and the Black Bay. Those other countries only
            existed after the continent rose up in the 19th century. That's why
            you never see anything written about their history in English. They
            didn't have any...

            *ahem*

            > Usually we get these arguments about changes in climate, or
            > differences because someone wants to prove that it is really
            > impossible to wear western European medieval fashions because they
            > re unsuitable for their climate, and that no climate in western
            > Europe duplicated their area.

            Just remind them that wool was a common cloth for clothing pretty much
            everywhere in the southern US long before the advent of air
            conditioning, and to stop whining about it :)

            Marc/Diarmaid
          • Marc Carlson
            ... I beg to differ. The Little Ice Age (which BTW followed the Medieval Warm Period ) began roughly around 1350 and stretched to the Mid-19th century
            Message 5 of 15 , May 2, 2005
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret
              Hepburn" <malvoisine@y...> wrote:
              > One other thing to take into consideration. Mid 16th century, parts
              > of Europe go through what is referred to as a mini ice age. For
              > almost a hundred years, it's colder & wetter than it had been
              > previously. But this changed again in the 17th century - the
              > weather in parts of Europe today, does not have anything to do with
              > the weather in SCA period....

              I beg to differ.

              The "Little Ice Age" (which BTW followed the "Medieval Warm Period")
              began roughly around 1350 and stretched to the Mid-19th century
              (although exactly WHEN seems to depend on which gague you are using to
              make the determination), although the colder and wetter aspects
              started well before (for example, it's probable that the storms that
              drowned much of the Netherlands in 1315 were an early sign of things
              to come).

              However, you are right, the years for peak cold were between 1500 and
              1700 (although the latter 14th century had some remarkably cold years).

              Marc/Diarmaid
            • Marc Lauterbach
              Actually, I found a fascinating website from the USDA that has a map of Europe s climactic zones and comparisons with the weather in avrious areas of the
              Message 6 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                Actually, I found a fascinating website from the USDA that has a map
                of Europe's climactic zones and comparisons with the weather in avrious
                areas of the United States. How similar the modern European climate is
                to what it was like in the middle ages is of course anybody's guess,
                however I would venture to say that on the whole the average
                temperatures during the high middle ages were probably a few degrees
                celcius warmer.
                http://www.usda.gov/oce/waob/jawf/profiles/html/eur/eurclim.htm
              • Wanda Pease
                Mark, What a nifty site! Thank you! The remark about Europe being completely surrounded by water just struck my funny bone. Certainly did not mean my answer
                Message 7 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                  Mark,

                  What a nifty site! Thank you!


                  The remark about Europe being completely surrounded by water just struck
                  my funny bone. Certainly did not mean my answer as a put down. Climates
                  have fluxgate by quite a bit in the last 2,000 years or so. Your Greenland
                  analogy is well taken. Check out "Woven Into the Earth" as a good example
                  of the shifts that Greenlanders had to make over their 1000 year history.

                  Actually, the Vikings (or those whose job description was "viking") did
                  dress differently when they got to Sicily, or even Byzantium. However they
                  were the sea peoples. My question of your statement also comes when you get
                  into Europe, away from the sea coasts. This is why I mention Bavaria,
                  Bohemia, most of what we now call Germany and Austria. I live in Portland,
                  Oregon. I lived in Frankfurt am Main, Germany for many years. The climate
                  here is very similar. Lots of Rain (capital R) and very little snow.
                  Portland is at 45 degrees and Frankfurt is at 50 degrees latitude.
                  Frankfurt is a ways away from the ocean, but on the Main River.

                  Yes things have changed in Europe. Yes places in the US are different
                  climatically than England, Italy and Greece. However, each of those places
                  has occasional HOT Muggy summers (2002 comes to mind).

                  As I said, usually the excuse that the US has different climates is to
                  enable people to run around in completely inauthentic "for their persona"
                  garb rather than research and make what they would really have worn or done.

                  Regina
                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Marc Lauterbach
                  Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 9:40 AM
                  To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Climate


                  Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God.
                  I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the
                  WESTERN European landmass and its situation with regards to its
                  geographic placement with say...oh I don't know, a similar chunk of the
                  United States from Nevada to Ohio, you will find that Europe has milder
                  temperatures. I of course can't speak for areas of non-Latin Europe
                  such as Russia which are similarly massive. Water has a cooling effect
                  rendering the weather in Europe more mild than here in the good ol'
                  USA. Are there similarities? Of course there are. Of course the
                  vikings wore different Garb than the Sicilians, I never implied
                  anything of the sort. However, anyone who thinks that nothing has
                  changed weather-wise around the world since the High middle ages might
                  want to try living off the land in Greenland for a few years. Good
                  luck with those oats ;)








                  ----------------------------------------------------
                  This is the Authentic SCA eGroup



                  ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  --
                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA/

                  b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  Authentic_SCA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

                  c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Marc Lauterbach
                  Hi again. My apologies if I sounded defensive, I didn t mean to come off that way at all :) I m glad you like the site and yes, I totally agree that too many
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 2, 2005
                    Hi again. My apologies if I sounded defensive, I didn't mean to come
                    off that way at all :) I'm glad you like the site and yes, I totally
                    agree that too many people use the excuse "well America is too hot to
                    wear wool" to get away with sloppy costuming. I have done both WWI and
                    Rev War reenacting in addition to SCA stuff, so I hear it all the
                    time ;) In any case, my response to those people is that usually linen
                    and wool are actually nicer than many modern fabrics. When we do our
                    thing at Colonial Williamsburg and ppl ask us if we're hot my response
                    is generally "yes, but probably not as hot. at least my clothes
                    breath." So I apologize for any misunderstanding! :)
                    Best Regards,
                    Marc
                  • julian wilson
                    Greetings, good Gentles All, Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next year. Some of our Companions who haven t
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 18, 2005
                      Greetings, good Gentles All,
                      Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next year. Some of our Companions who haven't yet worked-up little exhibits of their own, do play chess. And with Caxton's 1474 translation & printing in English of the "Gayme and Playe of Chesse" - [which by all accounts I have read so far, turned into a mediæval "best-seller"]; - it would be entirely appropriate for some of our Group to play a game or two of chess as a mini-display before the MoP.
                      The problem is that - despite extensive internet researches - and I freely admit I'm probably using the wrong " search words" - I cannot find any examples of mediævaL period sets apart from the one "everyone" seems to cite - the isle of Lewis chessmen.
                      Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                      And surely, - with so many mediæval re-enactors worldwide - some merchant[s] si/are offering other replica sets at prices that won't require we "mortgage our souls" in order to acquire such a thing?
                      There are lots of other "in-period" games available, and we've bought-in some of those; we've even bought-in replica sets of mediæval playing cards - 4 different designs if I recal correctly. But no-one knows how to play the games in the accompanying instructions.
                      At least with Chess, a number of Companions already know how to play, - and so all we'd need is "in-period" Chessmen.
                      But other mediæval-chessmen replicas than those from the Isle of Lewis "find"? - Zilch !
                      If any Listers also know of a modern replica-reprint of the Caxton book - we'd also like to have details, so that we can try to obtain a copy, for display. Yes, I know about the Project Gutenberg online version - but I'm hoping someone has done a not-to-expensive "replica reprint" that won't look too anachronistic, on-show by the Chess players.
                      If Listers can suggest possible sources of supply for either or both items, our Companions will be very grateful.

                      Peace be with you All, this Feast of St. Anselm; and God's Benison be upon your Houses and your Works now, - and until The Judgement.







                      Yours in service,
                      Julian Wilson,
                      [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
                      late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
                      "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                      [the only medieval living-history Group
                      in "olde" Jersey]

                      ---------------------------------
                      Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • lenastrid
                      I have never seen any chessmen set except the Lewis one. Perhaps your best bet is to ask museums for images of any chessmen they have (dated to the period of
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 19, 2005
                        I have never seen any chessmen set except the Lewis one. Perhaps your best bet is to ask
                        museums for images of any chessmen they have (dated to the period of your choice), and
                        see if there are any bone/woodworker that can make replicas for you.

                        But if you do find somewhere that sells medieval replicas, let us know. I'm sure there are
                        more than you out there that are interested.

                        /Lena


                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Greetings, good Gentles All,
                        > Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next
                        year. Some of our Companions who haven't yet worked-up little exhibits of their own, do
                        play chess. And with Caxton's 1474 translation & printing in English of the "Gayme and
                        Playe of Chesse" - [which by all accounts I have read so far, turned into a mediæval "best-
                        seller"]; - it would be entirely appropriate for some of our Group to play a game or two of
                        chess as a mini-display before the MoP.
                        > The problem is that - despite extensive internet researches - and I freely admit I'm
                        probably using the wrong " search words" - I cannot find any examples of mediævaL
                        period sets apart from the one "everyone" seems to cite - the isle of Lewis chessmen.
                        > Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                        > And surely, - with so many mediæval re-enactors worldwide - some merchant[s] si/
                        are offering other replica sets at prices that won't require we "mortgage our souls" in order
                        to acquire such a thing?
                        > There are lots of other "in-period" games available, and we've bought-in some of
                        those; we've even bought-in replica sets of mediæval playing cards - 4 different designs if
                        I recal correctly. But no-one knows how to play the games in the accompanying
                        instructions.
                        > At least with Chess, a number of Companions already know how to play, - and so all
                        we'd need is "in-period" Chessmen.
                        > But other mediæval-chessmen replicas than those from the Isle of Lewis "find"? - Zilch
                        !
                        > If any Listers also know of a modern replica-reprint of the Caxton book - we'd also like
                        to have details, so that we can try to obtain a copy, for display. Yes, I know about the
                        Project Gutenberg online version - but I'm hoping someone has done a not-to-expensive
                        "replica reprint" that won't look too anachronistic, on-show by the Chess players.
                        > If Listers can suggest possible sources of supply for either or both items, our
                        Companions will be very grateful.
                        >
                        > Peace be with you All, this Feast of St. Anselm; and God's Benison be upon your Houses
                        and your Works now, - and until The Judgement.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yours in service,
                        > Julian Wilson,
                        > [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey,
                        1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
                        > late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
                        > "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                        > [the only medieval living-history Group
                        > in "olde" Jersey]
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • wodeford
                        ... Entire sets? Individual pieces pop up in museum collections. I found these by Googling medieval chess. While I had to wade through some shlock, I did
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 19, 2005
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@y...> wrote:
                          > Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                          Entire sets? Individual pieces pop up in museum collections.
                          I found these by Googling "medieval chess." While I had to wade
                          through some shlock, I did find these links which might be of use:

                          http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=W23-9002 has a reproduction
                          set which for once is not the Lewis chessmen, though it's
                          stylistically similar.

                          http://www.chesscentral.com/sets-pieces-chess/chess-pieces.htm

                          http://www.crumiller.com/chess/chess_pages/chess_medieval_pieces.htm

                          http://history.chess.free.fr/findings.htm which includes images of a
                          marvelous French set from St. Denis, complete with elephants! I'd
                          never seen these before.

                          Cheers,
                          Jehanne de Wodeford, West Kingdom
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.