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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Hooded cloaks

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  • Mary Taran
    ... It was my understanding that the Kinsale cloak is from the 1700 s, not the 700 s. Where did you get the earlier figure? Mary Taran -- No virus found in
    Message 1 of 6 , May 1 10:11 PM
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      At 06:47 PM 4/29/2005, you wrote:

      >I know that the Kinsale cloak is a very early hooded cloak (700s Ireland I
      >believe), but does anyone know the appearance of the first hooded cloak?
      >And/or the first appearance of hooded cloak in Wales, or Britain?
      >I know of the brats, and leines, and nine yard wraps that supposedly became
      >kilts, but am specifically looking for hooded cloaks.
      >Thanks to all of you,
      >Hawk


      It was my understanding that the Kinsale cloak is from the 1700's, not the
      700's. Where did you get the earlier figure?

      Mary Taran



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    • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
      ... Most works on Celtic mythology seem to have a picture of the sculpture or relief of The Hooded Ones, three figures in hooded cloaks. If I recall it is
      Message 2 of 6 , May 2 5:30 AM
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        --- DawnsHebog@... wrote:
        > I know that the Kinsale cloak is a very early hooded
        > cloak (700s Ireland I
        > believe), but does anyone know the appearance of the
        > first hooded cloak?

        Most works on Celtic mythology seem to have a picture
        of the sculpture or relief of The Hooded Ones, three
        figures in hooded cloaks. If I recall it is
        Roman-Gaulish or Roman-British. And Norris lists the
        paenula as a hooded cloak worn by the Romans, who
        borrowed it from Greek peasants. The ecclesiastical
        alb has an attached hood, and this may well derive
        from Roman vestments.

        Okay, here it is...Alexander Neckham in the 12th
        cnetury wrote: "Let one who is about to ride have a
        chape with sleeves, of which the hood will not mind
        the weather."

        I don't know if any of this is helpful, but it may
        provide a beginning. And I'm sure someone better
        versed will correct my deficiencies.

        Andrea

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      • Kevin Myers
        A hooded cloak IMHO does not equal a Kinsale Cloak. The Kinsale was full, voluminous and had lots of pleats. The written evidence from that period (7th-8th
        Message 3 of 6 , May 2 8:33 AM
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          A hooded cloak IMHO does not equal a Kinsale Cloak.
          The Kinsale was full, voluminous and had lots of pleats. The written
          evidence from that period (7th-8th Cent.) shows people wearing a
          garment called a 'brat' which was a large rectangle or square of wool
          (maybe sometimes a half or semi-circle also, and also sometimes maybe
          of linen). This garment did not have a hood per se, but was large
          enough to be drawn up over the head. The brat was worn and exported to
          England through the end of the 16th century.

          There was a hooded garment that was worn--see the Orkney Hood. I think
          the irish version is called a 'Fallaing'. It's no where's near a
          Kinsale in style or size--more of a hooded mantle or poncho. Now, as to
          the roman hooded cloak--there is pictorial reference I've seen to
          clergy wearing it, those three hooded figures on that stone carving are
          also carrying croziers aren't they? There is also a pictish carving (I
          think it's pictish) of a figure riding a small horse and he's wearing a
          hooded cape-like garment. I say cape because it is hard to tell how
          long it really is because of the horse. It could be a large fallaing.

          Hooded mantles came into wider use in Ireland after the Norman invasion
          of the mid 12th century.

          Refer to McClintock, "Old Irish and Highland Dress"; and to J. Telfer
          Dunbar "Highland Dress". Also, take a look at the Book of Kells, the
          figures in it show a large mantle wrapped around the shoulders without
          a hood--this is the brat.

          A brat is also far easier to make. It was pinned with a brooch, usually
          annular or pennannular. As a brooch is mentioned in the 7th or 8th
          century law tract 'Crith Gablach' as being a requirement of status for
          a person of the Aire-deso (or Aire-Ard) rank (I don't have the sources
          to hand right now), it was worth an ounce (of what they don't specify).
          (See Fergus Kelly's Early Irish Farming for further breakdown of values
          and equivalencies)

          I'm curious to know who Alexander Neckham was, where was he
          writing/what context was he situated in (I'm presuming English)?
          Is a chape a cloak? He mentions sleeves.
          There was a lot of change between the 7th century and the 12th century.

          -Cainnech
          --- Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg <huwydd@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- DawnsHebog@... wrote:
          > > I know that the Kinsale cloak is a very early hooded
          > > cloak (700s Ireland I
          > > believe), but does anyone know the appearance of the
          > > first hooded cloak?
          >
          > Most works on Celtic mythology seem to have a picture
          > of the sculpture or relief of The Hooded Ones, three
          > figures in hooded cloaks. If I recall it is
          > Roman-Gaulish or Roman-British. And Norris lists the
          > paenula as a hooded cloak worn by the Romans, who
          > borrowed it from Greek peasants. The ecclesiastical
          > alb has an attached hood, and this may well derive
          > from Roman vestments.
          >
          > Okay, here it is...Alexander Neckham in the 12th
          > cnetury wrote: "Let one who is about to ride have a
          > chape with sleeves, of which the hood will not mind
          > the weather."
          >
          > I don't know if any of this is helpful, but it may
          > provide a beginning. And I'm sure someone better
          > versed will correct my deficiencies.
          >
          > Andrea
          >
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        • Heather Rose Jones
          ... As others have mentioned, I believe you ve lost a 1 from the date of the Kinsale cloak. Hooded cloaks seem to have gone in and out of fashion several
          Message 4 of 6 , May 2 8:26 PM
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            At 9:47 PM -0400 4/29/05, DawnsHebog@... wrote:
            >I know that the Kinsale cloak is a very early hooded cloak (700s Ireland I
            >believe), but does anyone know the appearance of the first hooded cloak?
            >And/or the first appearance of hooded cloak in Wales, or Britain?
            >I know of the brats, and leines, and nine yard wraps that supposedly became
            >kilts, but am specifically looking for hooded cloaks.

            As others have mentioned, I believe you've lost a "1" from the date
            of the Kinsale cloak.

            Hooded cloaks seem to have gone in and out of fashion several times
            over the ages. There was a relatively long hooded cloak that shows
            up in Roman-era sculpture and descriptions, but it seems to have
            fallen out of fashion with the fall of the empire and by the medieval
            period you get a combination of un-hooded long cloaks combined with a
            hood with a relatively short capelet (just over the shoulders). I
            think full-length hooded cloaks come back into fashion around the
            17th century, but this is a bit late for me, so I'm less familiar
            with the specifics.

            What evidence I've seen from Wales follows this same pattern.

            Tangwystyl
            --
            --
            Heather Rose Jones
            heather.jones@...
          • Marc Lauterbach
            I don t know how relevant this is, but there is plenty of evidence for outer garments with integral hoods in the time period you specify. However, whether or
            Message 5 of 6 , May 3 9:33 PM
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              I don't know how relevant this is, but there is plenty of evidence
              for outer garments with integral hoods in the time period you specify.
              However, whether or not these are the sorts of "cloaks" you're
              interested in, I don't know. For the most part they seem to be sleeved
              or slit-sleeved gardecorps or overtunics with hoods. An example of
              what I'm talking about can be seen in the two bottom panels of this
              illustration. Also the second panel down on the left side appears to
              show something akin to a poncho with a hood on it (the gentleman with
              the red-orange garment and the white coif following Christ. This
              manuscript is dated c. 1240 and is French.

              http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0714834521/ref=sib_rdr_zmin/102-0897788-
              7816139?p=S001&j=1#reader-page

              Hope that helps!
              regards,
              Matthaeus
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