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Re: Climate

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  • Sarah
    It s called convection. A large body of water regulates temperature in the air nearby. In summer, it will make the coastline temps cooler and in winter, they
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 30, 2005
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      It's called convection. A large body of water regulates temperature
      in the air nearby. In summer, it will make the coastline temps
      cooler and in winter, they will be warmer. Ocean currents also
      affect it greatly, as the currents can pull warm air along them.
      Sarah, who lives on the Texas Gulf Coast.

      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson"
      <marccarlson20@h...> wrote:
      > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Park McKellop
      <squire009@y...>
      > wrote:
      > > Check a globe or Mercator projection, Kansas is on the same line
      as
      > > Sicily, so S England/Southern New England is probably about
      right.
      >
      > Yes, but Sicily doesn't get the amount of snow and ice that Kansas
      > gets :) (or for that matter, much of Afghanistan gets also)
      >
      > Latitude is important, certainly but ocean currents (and altitude)
      can
      > have an important effect. I'm no expert in this, but it seems that
      > water retains heat very well, and the various currents transferring
      > that heat are a major contributor to local climates. England's
      > climate (as well as southern Greenland's in the early Middle Ages)
      has
      > a lot to do with the warmth of the North Atlantic Current.
      >
      > BTW, for some idea of what effects the various currents may have
      had
      > on history, you might try "The Little Ice Age" and "The Long
      Summer"
      > (both by Brian Fagan).
      >
      > Marc/Diarmaid
    • Marc Lauterbach
      *warning: I am not a meteorologist by any stretch of the imagination* Weather is different in Europe from American in many different ways. First and foremost,
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 30, 2005
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        *warning: I am not a meteorologist by any stretch of the imagination*

        Weather is different in Europe from American in many different ways.
        First and foremost, Europe is surrounded entirely by water and has a
        much smaller landmass compared to N. America. This has the effect of
        making weather as a whole generally milder. It's the same situation
        that you see with Islands. Burmuda has much milder weather than say
        West Virginia or Western N. Carolina. Likewise Madrid is on the same
        line as Philadelphia. The ocean serves to regulate the area's
        temperature. It's also the same reason why you see British soldiers
        in North America during the revolutionary war ripping the linings out
        of their regimental coats: the weather was much more extreme in the
        Americas than in Europe.

        Second of all, there are mini short-term periods of warming and
        cooling in the earth's history. You get long, thousand year periods
        of ice ages, but you also get warm spells or cold spells that can
        last a few centuries or so. One example of this was the so
        called "Little Climactic Optimum" from about the years 900-1250 or
        so. This resulted in overall much warmer and milder weather than
        before in europe, with wine cultivation going on in middle England
        (well north of it's current center in Southern France) and a
        population boom in paces such as Scotland. Likewise, Greenland was
        colonized in the high middle ages and it's been recorded that the
        Greenlanders could bury their dead underground to a considerable
        depth, where now the ground is pretty much frozen solid. It's
        estimated that during this time period Greenland was on average 4 to
        7 degrees celcius warmer than it is today.

        What does this mean? First population growth. The high middle ages
        saw a rapid rise in European population growth from about the years
        1000 to about the last quarter 13th- first quarter 14th centuires.
        There are very few food shortages recorded during that time and
        virtually no continent-wide famine in over 300 years. Second of all,
        it leads to the rapid urbanization of Europe as the population grows
        and also results in Europe becoming far more of an economic and
        military powerhouse. Finally, on a downside, the rapid end of the
        Little Optimum in a generation or two resulted in a series of very
        bad food shortages in the first few decades of the 14th and also set
        the stage for a weakening of the population upon the arrival of the
        black death in 1347, as well as the rapid weakening of previously
        more dominant areas of Europe such as Scandanavia, Scotland, and
        other areas. Hope that helps!
        Matthaeus
      • Wanda Pease
        Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get my Hammond Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between 1000 and 2000. Nope,
        Message 3 of 15 , May 1, 2005
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          Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get my Hammond
          Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between 1000 and 2000.
          Nope, Europe was still part of Eur-Asia then too. Switzerland, Hungary,
          Bohemia, Bavaria, Wallachia (Hi Vlad!), Serbia and most of the German and
          Austrian states were firmly landlocked. I suspect that the climate had a
          lot more to do with the fact that the currents in the oceans that touch
          Europe are different than those that hit eastern America. This means that
          New York, Boston, and other places where the British soldiers didn't feel
          comfortable, but were on the sea coast had different climates than England
          (which _is_ completely surrounded by ocean. (Okay, so
          England/Scotland/Wales is surrounded by water)

          When it comes to truly nasty Florida like weather, Italy, especially Rome,
          can stand proudly with anyone who claims hot and humid. Even the Texas Cost
          :-)

          Usually we get these arguments about changes in climate, or differences
          because someone wants to prove that it is really impossible to wear western
          European medieval fashions because they re unsuitable for their climate, and
          that no climate in western Europe duplicated their area.

          Regina ("Climate is what you expect. Weather is what you get")
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Marc Lauterbach
          Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 7:23 PM
          To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Climate


          *warning: I am not a meteorologist by any stretch of the imagination*

          Weather is different in Europe from American in many different ways.
          First and foremost, Europe is surrounded entirely by water and has a
          much smaller landmass compared to N. America. This has the effect of
          making weather as a whole generally milder.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
          One other thing to take into consideration. Mid 16th century, parts of Europe go through what is referred to as a mini ice age. For almost a hundred years,
          Message 4 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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            One other thing to take into consideration. Mid 16th century, parts
            of Europe go through what is referred to as a mini ice age. For
            almost a hundred years, it's colder & wetter than it had been
            previously. But this changed again in the 17th century - the weather
            in parts of Europe today, does not have anything to do with the
            weather in SCA period.... But this 'mini ice age' had a trickle down
            effect on a number of things, including famines & spread of disease.

            Also to consider, the British Isles are farther north latitudinally
            than most of the east coast of North America, the weather, time zone
            etc, is much more analogous at times to what you get in Canada &
            parts of Alaska.

            Europe did not have milder weather by any stretch of the
            imagination. Please remember, when you say Europe that includes
            Southern Italy, Malta, Greece, Findo-Scandia, etc. You've got LOTS
            of temperature extremes, from snow to arid, dry plains to balmy
            Mediterranean Islands. 16th century Maltese fashions, for instance,
            take into consideration the heat & humidity - a lot of linen, a lot
            of veils & coverings to keep the sun off, whereas in the
            Scandinavian nations, you have a lot of utilization of native
            leathers & furs in addition to wools - what works to keep the
            animals warm is used for the humans - but a Maltese wouldn't wear
            the same winter clothes as a Finn, any more than a Colonial American
            (and remember, you've got climate extremes just on the East Coast of
            the US!) would wear the same as a Southern Italian or a Highland
            Scot.

            For the record, I wear my wools & linen just fine in the very hot,
            very dry Eastern New Mexico summers.....

            Cheers,
            Margaret Hepburn

            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Pease" <wandap@h...>
            wrote:
            > Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get
            my Hammond
            > Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between 1000 and
            2000.
            > Nope, Europe was still part of Eur-Asia then too. Switzerland,
            Hungary,
            > Bohemia, Bavaria, Wallachia (Hi Vlad!), Serbia and most of the
            German and
            > Austrian states were firmly landlocked. I suspect that the
            climate had a
            > lot more to do with the fact that the currents in the oceans that
            touch
            > Europe are different than those that hit eastern America. This
            means that
            > New York, Boston, and other places where the British soldiers
            didn't feel
            > comfortable, but were on the sea coast had different climates than
            England
            > (which _is_ completely surrounded by ocean. (Okay, so
            > England/Scotland/Wales is surrounded by water)
            >
            > When it comes to truly nasty Florida like weather, Italy,
            especially Rome,
            > can stand proudly with anyone who claims hot and humid. Even the
            Texas Cost
            > :-)
            >
            > Usually we get these arguments about changes in climate, or
            differences
            > because someone wants to prove that it is really impossible to
            wear western
            > European medieval fashions because they re unsuitable for their
            climate, and
            > that no climate in western Europe duplicated their area.
            >
            > Regina ("Climate is what you expect. Weather is what you get")
          • Marc Lauterbach
            Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God. I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the WESTERN European
            Message 5 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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              Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God.
              I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the
              WESTERN European landmass and its situation with regards to its
              geographic placement with say...oh I don't know, a similar chunk of the
              United States from Nevada to Ohio, you will find that Europe has milder
              temperatures. I of course can't speak for areas of non-Latin Europe
              such as Russia which are similarly massive. Water has a cooling effect
              rendering the weather in Europe more mild than here in the good ol'
              USA. Are there similarities? Of course there are. Of course the
              vikings wore different Garb than the Sicilians, I never implied
              anything of the sort. However, anyone who thinks that nothing has
              changed weather-wise around the world since the High middle ages might
              want to try living off the land in Greenland for a few years. Good
              luck with those oats ;)
            • Marc Carlson
              ... Oh certainly - haven t you ever heard of the Great European Sea? All the way from the Scandinavian Islands, past the Rus/Gulag Archipelago, down to
              Message 6 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Pease" <wandap@h...> wrote:
                > Erm... Europe is surrounded _entirely by Water_? I had to get my
                > Hammond Historical Atlas out to see if something changed between
                > 1000 and 2000. Nope, Europe was still part of Eur-Asia then too.
                > Switzerland, Hungary, Bohemia, Bavaria, Wallachia (Hi Vlad!),
                > Serbia and most of the German and Austrian states were firmly
                > landlocked...

                Oh certainly - haven't you ever heard of the Great European Sea? All
                the way from the Scandinavian Islands, past the Rus/Gulag Archipelago,
                down to Constantinople and the Black Bay. Those other countries only
                existed after the continent rose up in the 19th century. That's why
                you never see anything written about their history in English. They
                didn't have any...

                *ahem*

                > Usually we get these arguments about changes in climate, or
                > differences because someone wants to prove that it is really
                > impossible to wear western European medieval fashions because they
                > re unsuitable for their climate, and that no climate in western
                > Europe duplicated their area.

                Just remind them that wool was a common cloth for clothing pretty much
                everywhere in the southern US long before the advent of air
                conditioning, and to stop whining about it :)

                Marc/Diarmaid
              • Marc Carlson
                ... I beg to differ. The Little Ice Age (which BTW followed the Medieval Warm Period ) began roughly around 1350 and stretched to the Mid-19th century
                Message 7 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret
                  Hepburn" <malvoisine@y...> wrote:
                  > One other thing to take into consideration. Mid 16th century, parts
                  > of Europe go through what is referred to as a mini ice age. For
                  > almost a hundred years, it's colder & wetter than it had been
                  > previously. But this changed again in the 17th century - the
                  > weather in parts of Europe today, does not have anything to do with
                  > the weather in SCA period....

                  I beg to differ.

                  The "Little Ice Age" (which BTW followed the "Medieval Warm Period")
                  began roughly around 1350 and stretched to the Mid-19th century
                  (although exactly WHEN seems to depend on which gague you are using to
                  make the determination), although the colder and wetter aspects
                  started well before (for example, it's probable that the storms that
                  drowned much of the Netherlands in 1315 were an early sign of things
                  to come).

                  However, you are right, the years for peak cold were between 1500 and
                  1700 (although the latter 14th century had some remarkably cold years).

                  Marc/Diarmaid
                • Marc Lauterbach
                  Actually, I found a fascinating website from the USDA that has a map of Europe s climactic zones and comparisons with the weather in avrious areas of the
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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                    Actually, I found a fascinating website from the USDA that has a map
                    of Europe's climactic zones and comparisons with the weather in avrious
                    areas of the United States. How similar the modern European climate is
                    to what it was like in the middle ages is of course anybody's guess,
                    however I would venture to say that on the whole the average
                    temperatures during the high middle ages were probably a few degrees
                    celcius warmer.
                    http://www.usda.gov/oce/waob/jawf/profiles/html/eur/eurclim.htm
                  • Wanda Pease
                    Mark, What a nifty site! Thank you! The remark about Europe being completely surrounded by water just struck my funny bone. Certainly did not mean my answer
                    Message 9 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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                      Mark,

                      What a nifty site! Thank you!


                      The remark about Europe being completely surrounded by water just struck
                      my funny bone. Certainly did not mean my answer as a put down. Climates
                      have fluxgate by quite a bit in the last 2,000 years or so. Your Greenland
                      analogy is well taken. Check out "Woven Into the Earth" as a good example
                      of the shifts that Greenlanders had to make over their 1000 year history.

                      Actually, the Vikings (or those whose job description was "viking") did
                      dress differently when they got to Sicily, or even Byzantium. However they
                      were the sea peoples. My question of your statement also comes when you get
                      into Europe, away from the sea coasts. This is why I mention Bavaria,
                      Bohemia, most of what we now call Germany and Austria. I live in Portland,
                      Oregon. I lived in Frankfurt am Main, Germany for many years. The climate
                      here is very similar. Lots of Rain (capital R) and very little snow.
                      Portland is at 45 degrees and Frankfurt is at 50 degrees latitude.
                      Frankfurt is a ways away from the ocean, but on the Main River.

                      Yes things have changed in Europe. Yes places in the US are different
                      climatically than England, Italy and Greece. However, each of those places
                      has occasional HOT Muggy summers (2002 comes to mind).

                      As I said, usually the excuse that the US has different climates is to
                      enable people to run around in completely inauthentic "for their persona"
                      garb rather than research and make what they would really have worn or done.

                      Regina
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Marc Lauterbach
                      Sent: Monday, May 02, 2005 9:40 AM
                      To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Climate


                      Evidentally Europe is not COMPLETELY surrounded by water, good God.
                      I was speaking metaphorically. However, if you compare the size of the
                      WESTERN European landmass and its situation with regards to its
                      geographic placement with say...oh I don't know, a similar chunk of the
                      United States from Nevada to Ohio, you will find that Europe has milder
                      temperatures. I of course can't speak for areas of non-Latin Europe
                      such as Russia which are similarly massive. Water has a cooling effect
                      rendering the weather in Europe more mild than here in the good ol'
                      USA. Are there similarities? Of course there are. Of course the
                      vikings wore different Garb than the Sicilians, I never implied
                      anything of the sort. However, anyone who thinks that nothing has
                      changed weather-wise around the world since the High middle ages might
                      want to try living off the land in Greenland for a few years. Good
                      luck with those oats ;)








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                    • Marc Lauterbach
                      Hi again. My apologies if I sounded defensive, I didn t mean to come off that way at all :) I m glad you like the site and yes, I totally agree that too many
                      Message 10 of 15 , May 2, 2005
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                        Hi again. My apologies if I sounded defensive, I didn't mean to come
                        off that way at all :) I'm glad you like the site and yes, I totally
                        agree that too many people use the excuse "well America is too hot to
                        wear wool" to get away with sloppy costuming. I have done both WWI and
                        Rev War reenacting in addition to SCA stuff, so I hear it all the
                        time ;) In any case, my response to those people is that usually linen
                        and wool are actually nicer than many modern fabrics. When we do our
                        thing at Colonial Williamsburg and ppl ask us if we're hot my response
                        is generally "yes, but probably not as hot. at least my clothes
                        breath." So I apologize for any misunderstanding! :)
                        Best Regards,
                        Marc
                      • julian wilson
                        Greetings, good Gentles All, Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next year. Some of our Companions who haven t
                        Message 11 of 15 , Nov 18, 2005
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                          Greetings, good Gentles All,
                          Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next year. Some of our Companions who haven't yet worked-up little exhibits of their own, do play chess. And with Caxton's 1474 translation & printing in English of the "Gayme and Playe of Chesse" - [which by all accounts I have read so far, turned into a mediæval "best-seller"]; - it would be entirely appropriate for some of our Group to play a game or two of chess as a mini-display before the MoP.
                          The problem is that - despite extensive internet researches - and I freely admit I'm probably using the wrong " search words" - I cannot find any examples of mediævaL period sets apart from the one "everyone" seems to cite - the isle of Lewis chessmen.
                          Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                          And surely, - with so many mediæval re-enactors worldwide - some merchant[s] si/are offering other replica sets at prices that won't require we "mortgage our souls" in order to acquire such a thing?
                          There are lots of other "in-period" games available, and we've bought-in some of those; we've even bought-in replica sets of mediæval playing cards - 4 different designs if I recal correctly. But no-one knows how to play the games in the accompanying instructions.
                          At least with Chess, a number of Companions already know how to play, - and so all we'd need is "in-period" Chessmen.
                          But other mediæval-chessmen replicas than those from the Isle of Lewis "find"? - Zilch !
                          If any Listers also know of a modern replica-reprint of the Caxton book - we'd also like to have details, so that we can try to obtain a copy, for display. Yes, I know about the Project Gutenberg online version - but I'm hoping someone has done a not-to-expensive "replica reprint" that won't look too anachronistic, on-show by the Chess players.
                          If Listers can suggest possible sources of supply for either or both items, our Companions will be very grateful.

                          Peace be with you All, this Feast of St. Anselm; and God's Benison be upon your Houses and your Works now, - and until The Judgement.







                          Yours in service,
                          Julian Wilson,
                          [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey, 1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
                          late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
                          "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                          [the only medieval living-history Group
                          in "olde" Jersey]

                          ---------------------------------
                          Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • lenastrid
                          I have never seen any chessmen set except the Lewis one. Perhaps your best bet is to ask museums for images of any chessmen they have (dated to the period of
                          Message 12 of 15 , Nov 19, 2005
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                            I have never seen any chessmen set except the Lewis one. Perhaps your best bet is to ask
                            museums for images of any chessmen they have (dated to the period of your choice), and
                            see if there are any bone/woodworker that can make replicas for you.

                            But if you do find somewhere that sells medieval replicas, let us know. I'm sure there are
                            more than you out there that are interested.

                            /Lena


                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Greetings, good Gentles All,
                            > Our Group is in need of a set of replica-mediæval chessmen to use in our displays next
                            year. Some of our Companions who haven't yet worked-up little exhibits of their own, do
                            play chess. And with Caxton's 1474 translation & printing in English of the "Gayme and
                            Playe of Chesse" - [which by all accounts I have read so far, turned into a mediæval "best-
                            seller"]; - it would be entirely appropriate for some of our Group to play a game or two of
                            chess as a mini-display before the MoP.
                            > The problem is that - despite extensive internet researches - and I freely admit I'm
                            probably using the wrong " search words" - I cannot find any examples of mediævaL
                            period sets apart from the one "everyone" seems to cite - the isle of Lewis chessmen.
                            > Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                            > And surely, - with so many mediæval re-enactors worldwide - some merchant[s] si/
                            are offering other replica sets at prices that won't require we "mortgage our souls" in order
                            to acquire such a thing?
                            > There are lots of other "in-period" games available, and we've bought-in some of
                            those; we've even bought-in replica sets of mediæval playing cards - 4 different designs if
                            I recal correctly. But no-one knows how to play the games in the accompanying
                            instructions.
                            > At least with Chess, a number of Companions already know how to play, - and so all
                            we'd need is "in-period" Chessmen.
                            > But other mediæval-chessmen replicas than those from the Isle of Lewis "find"? - Zilch
                            !
                            > If any Listers also know of a modern replica-reprint of the Caxton book - we'd also like
                            to have details, so that we can try to obtain a copy, for display. Yes, I know about the
                            Project Gutenberg online version - but I'm hoping someone has done a not-to-expensive
                            "replica reprint" that won't look too anachronistic, on-show by the Chess players.
                            > If Listers can suggest possible sources of supply for either or both items, our
                            Companions will be very grateful.
                            >
                            > Peace be with you All, this Feast of St. Anselm; and God's Benison be upon your Houses
                            and your Works now, - and until The Judgement.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yours in service,
                            > Julian Wilson,
                            > [aka. Messire Matthew Baker/Matthieu Besquer, Governor & Castellan of Jersey,
                            1486-1497: - "Si vis pacem, para bellum"]
                            > late-medieval Re-enactor; & Historian and Master Artisan to
                            > "The Companie of the Duke's Leopards",
                            > [the only medieval living-history Group
                            > in "olde" Jersey]
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Yahoo! Messenger NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                          • wodeford
                            ... Entire sets? Individual pieces pop up in museum collections. I found these by Googling medieval chess. While I had to wade through some shlock, I did
                            Message 13 of 15 , Nov 19, 2005
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, julian wilson <smnco37@y...> wrote:
                              > Surely there must be other surving sets from the mediæval period?
                              Entire sets? Individual pieces pop up in museum collections.
                              I found these by Googling "medieval chess." While I had to wade
                              through some shlock, I did find these links which might be of use:

                              http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=W23-9002 has a reproduction
                              set which for once is not the Lewis chessmen, though it's
                              stylistically similar.

                              http://www.chesscentral.com/sets-pieces-chess/chess-pieces.htm

                              http://www.crumiller.com/chess/chess_pages/chess_medieval_pieces.htm

                              http://history.chess.free.fr/findings.htm which includes images of a
                              marvelous French set from St. Denis, complete with elephants! I'd
                              never seen these before.

                              Cheers,
                              Jehanne de Wodeford, West Kingdom
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