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the cost of saffron

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  • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
    Nowadays saffron is more or less worth its weight in gold, I understand (I m apt to cheat with turmeric). In period (spec. 13th cent Britain) when all the
    Message 1 of 29 , Apr 27 6:38 PM
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      Nowadays saffron is more or less worth its weight in
      gold, I understand (I'm apt to cheat with turmeric).
      In period (spec. 13th cent Britain) when all the
      spices were so expensive, was saffron comparable in
      cost, or was it still more expensive than say cinnamon
      or galingale?

      I'm pondering why the "pygmies" whom Elidyr visited as
      a boy (12th cent Wales) used saffron - was it the
      expense, just as they played with golden balls? Or
      was there another reason?

      And by the way, has anyone a recipe for milk or cheese
      "made into messes with saffron"?

      Andrea

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    • James Prescott
      One data point: London 1438-1439 Price per unit in pennies Pepper 18 per pound Ginger 12 per pound Cinnamon 24 per pound Cloves 36 per pound Saffron
      Message 2 of 29 , Apr 27 10:27 PM
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        One data point:

        London 1438-1439

        Price per unit in pennies

        Pepper 18 per pound
        Ginger 12 per pound
        Cinnamon 24 per pound
        Cloves 36 per pound
        Saffron 183 per pound
        Sugar 16 per pound


        With saffron only ten times as expensive as pepper, and considering
        that one uses very low weights of saffron per recipe, I'd say that
        saffron was quite reasonably priced, and affordable by anyone who
        was already using the other spices.

        One gram goes a long way. A master mason or carpenter earning eight
        pence a day could buy 20 grams with one day's wage. A single gram
        (a quantity for sale today) suffices for many meals.

        It needs to be noted that in general saffron could be grown locally,
        even in England (e.g. at Saffron Walden) and while involving labour
        costs, did not have the costs associated with long sea voyages.


        Thorvald


        At 18:38 -0700 2005-04-27, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:
        > Nowadays saffron is more or less worth its weight in
        > gold, I understand (I'm apt to cheat with turmeric).
        > In period (spec. 13th cent Britain) when all the
        > spices were so expensive, was saffron comparable in
        > cost, or was it still more expensive than say cinnamon
        > or galingale?
      • cschutrick
        ... Really? I m mildly impressed, or maybe they were using greenhouses. Or period England was not as cold as I d believed. Basing this on my current
        Message 3 of 29 , Apr 28 6:10 AM
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          > It needs to be noted that in general saffron could be grown locally,
          > even in England (e.g. at Saffron Walden) and while involving labour
          > costs, did not have the costs associated with long sea voyages.

          Really? I'm mildly impressed, or maybe they were using greenhouses.
          Or period England was not as cold as I'd believed.

          Basing this on my current experience, which is that saffron needs to
          be mulched to survive Zone 6 winters here in Pennsylvania, that is,
          getting down to about 0 deg F on a fairly regular basis (that's ca.
          -18 C, I believe). Given stories about the Thames freezing solid
          enough for beer wagons and whatnot, I'd think it would take some
          fairly heroic measures to keep a Mediterranean plant alive...

          --Jeannette
        • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
          Morning! There is a problem here with the saffron discussion... While a rose by any other name may still be a rose, producers of Saffron (and Port, and
          Message 4 of 29 , Apr 28 6:32 AM
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            Morning!
            There is a problem here with the saffron discussion... While a rose by
            any other name may still be a rose, producers of Saffron (and Port, and
            Champagne) feel differently.

            There is a reason you can get "Spanish saffron" for as little as $3/oz,
            while the "real thing" is FAR more expensive.

            For a "Port" wine to be "properly" called a Port, it needs to be produced
            in Portugal. For something to truly be "Champagne" (and not sparkling
            wine) it needs to be produced in "Champagne". The Saffron that costs so
            dearly is all produced in a couple counties in Spain. If you cross out of
            those counties and grow the same crocus, the cost of a stamen is FAR less.

            Since it's been shown that at least in some periods and places the saffron
            was grown locally, you clearly don't need to use saffron from one of the
            "expensive" counties to create a more period dish.

            Just don't use Egyptian saffron, as it's a different plant completely and
            tastes different (but if you just want color, in a pinch it'll work).

            Cu drag,
            Bogdan
            -----------------------------------------------------------
            Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
            Postdoctoral Fellow
            Department of Biological Sciences
            North Dakota State University
            Stevens Hall
            Fargo, ND 58105
            jeffrey.heilveil@...
          • Jenn Ridley
            On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:10:53 -0000, cschutrick ... The Thames doesn t usually freeze. Not even during the little ice age. Parts of England are warmer than
            Message 5 of 29 , Apr 28 6:37 AM
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              On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 13:10:53 -0000, "cschutrick"
              <cschutrick@...> wrote:

              >> It needs to be noted that in general saffron could be grown locally,
              >> even in England (e.g. at Saffron Walden) and while involving labour
              >> costs, did not have the costs associated with long sea voyages.
              >
              >Really? I'm mildly impressed, or maybe they were using greenhouses.
              >Or period England was not as cold as I'd believed.
              >
              >Basing this on my current experience, which is that saffron needs to
              >be mulched to survive Zone 6 winters here in Pennsylvania, that is,
              >getting down to about 0 deg F on a fairly regular basis (that's ca.
              >-18 C, I believe). Given stories about the Thames freezing solid
              >enough for beer wagons and whatnot, I'd think it would take some
              >fairly heroic measures to keep a Mediterranean plant alive...

              The Thames doesn't usually freeze. Not even during the little ice
              age.

              Parts of England are warmer than PA even now, despite being
              geographically farther north. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there
              were many areas in England where saffron crocuses would grow. Maybe
              only in sheltered corners, but still....
              --
              Anastasia Emilianova
              Jenn Ridley : jridley@...
            • Marc Carlson
              ... Whis is why on those very rare occasions that it does, someone mentions it :) While I have no rigorous scientific study to back it up, general observation
              Message 6 of 29 , Apr 28 9:00 AM
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Jenn Ridley <jridley@c...> wrote:
                >...The Thames doesn't usually freeze. Not even during the little ice
                >age.

                Whis is why on those very rare occasions that it does, someone
                mentions it :)

                While I have no rigorous scientific study to back it up, general
                observation has suggested that winter temperatures in England (I have
                zero experience with Scotland or Wales) are on par with those around
                here in Oklahoma. Summer temps are dramatically different, though,
                since while summers can regularly get into the 80s there (upper 20s),
                we regularly get days above 100 (37).

                During much of the Middle Ages there were vineyards in England (as
                there are today). If memory serves the wines may not have been as
                sweet as they could get from France, but they were growing sufficient
                that H8 owned 11 Vinyards. A further 67 were owned by various nobles
                and 50-something by the Church.

                Marc/Diarmaid
              • Mary Taran
                It is my understanding that the stuff sold at $3/oz is actually safflower, which will indeed color your stuff much as saffron will, but I ve never seen it
                Message 7 of 29 , Apr 28 9:23 AM
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                  It is my understanding that the stuff sold at $3/oz is actually safflower,
                  which will indeed color your stuff much as saffron will, but I've never
                  seen it marketed as "Spanish" saffron. In fact, it is clearly marked as
                  coming from Mexico (although it could be imported from Egypt as well--I'm
                  not familiar with the Egyptian fake). If you look at the stuff in the
                  container, saffron looks like little threads and safflower (false saffron)
                  looks like wood shavings.

                  Mary Taran

                  At 06:32 AM 4/28/2005, you wrote:

                  >Morning!
                  >There is a problem here with the saffron discussion... While a rose by
                  >any other name may still be a rose, producers of Saffron (and Port, and
                  >Champagne) feel differently.
                  >
                  >There is a reason you can get "Spanish saffron" for as little as $3/oz,
                  >while the "real thing" is FAR more expensive.
                  >
                  >For a "Port" wine to be "properly" called a Port, it needs to be produced
                  >in Portugal. For something to truly be "Champagne" (and not sparkling
                  >wine) it needs to be produced in "Champagne". The Saffron that costs so
                  >dearly is all produced in a couple counties in Spain. If you cross out of
                  >those counties and grow the same crocus, the cost of a stamen is FAR less.
                  >
                  >Since it's been shown that at least in some periods and places the saffron
                  >was grown locally, you clearly don't need to use saffron from one of the
                  >"expensive" counties to create a more period dish.
                  >
                  >Just don't use Egyptian saffron, as it's a different plant completely and
                  >tastes different (but if you just want color, in a pinch it'll work).
                  >
                  >Cu drag,
                  >Bogdan


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                • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
                  If one haunts Asian groceries you can find spanish saffron for $3/oz. It is NOT safflower, but is indeed crocus stamens, of the same species as the true
                  Message 8 of 29 , Apr 28 9:38 AM
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                    If one haunts Asian groceries you can find "spanish saffron" for $3/oz.
                    It is NOT safflower, but is indeed crocus stamens, of the same species as
                    the "true saffron" provider.

                    cu drag,
                    Bogdan

                    > It is my understanding that the stuff sold at $3/oz is actually
                    > safflower <snip>


                    -----------------------------------------------------------
                    Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
                    Postdoctoral Fellow
                    Department of Biological Sciences
                    North Dakota State University
                    Stevens Hall
                    Fargo, ND 58105
                    jeffrey.heilveil@...
                  • azilisarmor
                    ... $3/oz, ... ... three bucks an OUNCE??? Where are you getting this stuff? I just looked in my spice cabinet, to see what I was paying for various, and
                    Message 9 of 29 , Apr 28 9:45 AM
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, jeffrey.heilveil@n... wrote:
                      >
                      > There is a reason you can get "Spanish saffron" for as little as
                      $3/oz,
                      > while the "real thing" is FAR more expensive.
                      >

                      ... three bucks an OUNCE???

                      Where are you getting this stuff?
                      I just looked in my spice cabinet, to see what I was paying for
                      various, and discovered that even my lowly dill weed (yeah, I could
                      have grown it myself) cost about $8 an ounce in the jar.
                      I needed a bit of saffron at Pennsic last year, and it was $6 a gram
                      there. (And Spanish.) Fortunately, a gram goes a long way.

                      Deroch
                    • cschutrick
                      ... Well, there s Pennsylvania Macaroni in Pittsburgh; last fall, and I think still, they were selling little bundles of Spanish saffron (~50 threads) for US
                      Message 10 of 29 , Apr 28 9:58 AM
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                        > ... three bucks an OUNCE???
                        >
                        > Where are you getting this stuff?
                        > I just looked in my spice cabinet, to see what I was paying for
                        > various, and discovered that even my lowly dill weed (yeah, I could
                        > have grown it myself) cost about $8 an ounce in the jar.
                        > I needed a bit of saffron at Pennsic last year, and it was $6 a gram
                        > there. (And Spanish.) Fortunately, a gram goes a long way.

                        Well, there's Pennsylvania Macaroni in Pittsburgh; last fall, and I
                        think still, they were selling little bundles of Spanish saffron (~50
                        threads) for US $3. Seems to me it was about a gram of actual
                        saffron, so that might be worth looking into next time you need
                        some. :)

                        And I didn't know you could eat safflower; I've only ever encountered
                        it as a dyestuff--makes nice bright yellows and a brilliant pink-red.
                        Not very fast, though.

                        --Jeannette
                        who is ordering more saffron crocus, because, well, I mentioned they
                        need mulch, right?
                      • Kareina Talvi Tytär
                        I don t know about England, but there is a fair bit of saffron being grown and sold locally in Tasmania (Australia), which is about as far south as Oregon is
                        Message 11 of 29 , Apr 28 10:15 AM
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                          I don't know about England, but there is a fair bit of saffron being grown
                          and sold locally in Tasmania (Australia), which is about as far south as
                          Oregon is north.

                          --Kareina

                          > Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 09:37:40 -0400
                          > [snip]
                          >
                          >Parts of England are warmer than PA even now, despite being
                          >geographically farther north. I wouldn't be at all surprised if there
                          >were many areas in England where saffron crocuses would grow. Maybe
                          >only in sheltered corners, but still....
                          >--
                          >Anastasia Emilianova
                          >Jenn Ridley : jridley@...


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                        • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
                          ... The oriental groceries in both Fargo, ND and Champaign, IL had them at that price. Indian markets too, I d assume. ... Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
                          Message 12 of 29 , Apr 28 10:18 AM
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                            >... three bucks an OUNCE???
                            > Where are you getting this stuff?

                            The oriental groceries in both Fargo, ND and Champaign, IL had them at
                            that price. Indian markets too, I'd assume.

                            -----------------------------------------------------------
                            Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
                            Postdoctoral Fellow
                            Department of Biological Sciences
                            North Dakota State University
                            Stevens Hall
                            Fargo, ND 58105
                            jeffrey.heilveil@...
                          • Nest verch Tangwistel
                            I am under the impression that southern England has a very similar climate to southern New England. The Gulf stream bounces off Massachusetts and cuts across
                            Message 13 of 29 , Apr 28 10:37 AM
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                              I am under the impression that southern England has a very similar
                              climate to southern New England. The Gulf stream bounces off
                              Massachusetts and cuts across the Atlantic to England taking the warm
                              wet climate with it. I have grown saffron crocuses here in Mass so I am
                              thinking it would be possible there also.

                              Nest
                              >
                              > During much of the Middle Ages there were vineyards in England (as
                              > there are today). If memory serves the wines may not have been as
                              > sweet as they could get from France, but they were growing sufficient
                              > that H8 owned 11 Vinyards. A further 67 were owned by various nobles
                              > and 50-something by the Church.
                              >
                              > Marc/Diarmaid
                            • azilisarmor
                              From where I live (US side of the Canadian-US border) most places carrying cheap, good spices are just plain unreachable. Montreal and Ottawa are within 2
                              Message 14 of 29 , Apr 28 10:39 AM
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                                From where I live (US side of the Canadian-US border) most
                                places carrying cheap, good spices are just plain unreachable.
                                Montreal and Ottawa are within 2 hours. Does anyone have
                                experience in buying spices in Canada and bringing them back
                                through customs?

                                Deroch
                              • Lady_Lark_Azure
                                ... Have you ever tried Penzeys? (penzeys.com) I ve never had any complaints with their quality and they have a great range of stuff. Isabeau
                                Message 15 of 29 , Apr 28 11:05 AM
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                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "azilisarmor" <alsnchap@t...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > From where I live (US side of the Canadian-US border) most
                                  > places carrying cheap, good spices are just plain unreachable.
                                  > Montreal and Ottawa are within 2 hours. Does anyone have
                                  > experience in buying spices in Canada and bringing them back
                                  > through customs?
                                  >
                                  > Deroch

                                  Have you ever tried Penzeys? (penzeys.com) I've never had any
                                  complaints with their quality and they have a great range of stuff.

                                  Isabeau
                                • kittencat3@aol.com
                                  I agree: $3 an ounce for saffron is ludicrously cheap. That stuff is literally worth more than its weight in gold. BTW, for anyone who s interested in
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Apr 28 11:54 AM
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                                    I agree: $3 an ounce for saffron is ludicrously cheap. That stuff is
                                    literally worth more than its weight in gold.

                                    BTW, for anyone who's interested in ludicrously expensive dyes, saffron
                                    produces a nice, reasonably fast yellow and can be overdyed to a pretty
                                    green.....

                                    Sarah Davies


                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: jeffrey.heilveil@...
                                    To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thu, 28 Apr 2005 12:18:39 -0500 (CDT)
                                    Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: The problem with "saffron"


                                    >... three bucks an OUNCE???
                                    > Where are you getting this stuff?

                                    The oriental groceries in both Fargo, ND and Champaign, IL had them at
                                    that price. Indian markets too, I'd assume.

                                    -----------------------------------------------------------
                                    Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
                                    Postdoctoral Fellow
                                    Department of Biological Sciences
                                    North Dakota State University
                                    Stevens Hall
                                    Fargo, ND 58105
                                    jeffrey.heilveil@...




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                                  • Mary Taran
                                    ... Astonishing. I shall have to look. MT -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.10.4 -
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Apr 28 12:58 PM
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                                      At 09:38 AM 4/28/2005, you wrote:

                                      >If one haunts Asian groceries you can find "spanish saffron" for $3/oz.
                                      >It is NOT safflower, but is indeed crocus stamens, of the same species as
                                      >the "true saffron" provider.
                                      >
                                      >cu drag,
                                      >Bogdan

                                      Astonishing. I shall have to look.

                                      MT


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                                      Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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                                    • Adele de Maisieres
                                      ... Ummm... I buy saffron that comes variously from India, Spain, and even the locally grown (Canterbury, New Zealand) stuff, and it s _all_ expensive. Adele
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Apr 28 5:34 PM
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                                        jeffrey.heilveil@... wrote:

                                        >There is a reason you can get "Spanish saffron" for as little as $3/oz,
                                        >while the "real thing" is FAR more expensive.
                                        >
                                        >For a "Port" wine to be "properly" called a Port, it needs to be produced
                                        >in Portugal. For something to truly be "Champagne" (and not sparkling
                                        >wine) it needs to be produced in "Champagne". The Saffron that costs so
                                        >dearly is all produced in a couple counties in Spain. If you cross out of
                                        >those counties and grow the same crocus, the cost of a stamen is FAR less.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

                                        Ummm... I buy saffron that comes variously from India, Spain, and even
                                        the locally grown (Canterbury, New Zealand) stuff, and it's _all_
                                        expensive.

                                        Adele
                                      • Adele de Maisieres
                                        ... Yup. I think it can also contain calendula. Adele
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Apr 28 5:35 PM
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                                          Mary Taran wrote:

                                          >It is my understanding that the stuff sold at $3/oz is actually safflower,
                                          >which will indeed color your stuff much as saffron will, but I've never
                                          >seen it marketed as "Spanish" saffron. In fact, it is clearly marked as
                                          >coming from Mexico (although it could be imported from Egypt as well--I'm
                                          >not familiar with the Egyptian fake). If you look at the stuff in the
                                          >container, saffron looks like little threads and safflower (false saffron)
                                          >looks like wood shavings.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          Yup. I think it can also contain calendula.

                                          Adele
                                        • Hasoferet@aol.com
                                          In a message dated 4/28/2005 9:45:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, ... Trader Joe s (a California chain I would probably pine away and wither without), sells
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Apr 29 10:06 PM
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                                            In a message dated 4/28/2005 9:45:31 AM Pacific Standard Time,
                                            jeffrey.heilveil@... writes:


                                            > If one haunts Asian groceries you can find "spanish saffron" for $3/oz.
                                            > It is NOT safflower, but is indeed crocus stamens, of the same species as
                                            > the "true saffron" provider.

                                            Trader Joe's (a California chain I would probably pine away and wither
                                            without), sells saffron at about four bucks for a little jar, can't find mine now,
                                            so not sure of the weight. I don't cook with saffron much, so one of these
                                            lasts me ages. My old-neighborhood yuppie food mart sold it for about the same
                                            prices. I recall buying a couple ounces back when I was in grade school for a
                                            fabric-dying project.

                                            Raquel

                                            Raquel
                                            _______________________________________________________
                                            Kamatz katan le'olam!


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Ragnhildr/Adrienne
                                            I can also recommend San Francisco Herb (sfherb.com). 1 gram of saffron is $2.05, and an ounce is $28.60. Of course, there is a minimum order, but I never
                                            Message 21 of 29 , May 1, 2005
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                                              I can also recommend San Francisco Herb (sfherb.com). 1 gram of
                                              saffron is $2.05, and an ounce is $28.60.

                                              Of course, there is a minimum order, but I never have trouble filling
                                              out that $30.

                                              Ragnhildr


                                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Lady_Lark_Azure"
                                              <jenniferanne21@n...> wrote:

                                              > Have you ever tried Penzeys? (penzeys.com) I've never had any
                                              > complaints with their quality and they have a great range of stuff.
                                              >
                                              > Isabeau
                                            • eiremyst
                                              Personally, I have been using the saffron that comes in 1 ounce tins from Indian markets -- a decent dye and taste. However, if you are looking for smaller
                                              Message 22 of 29 , May 1, 2005
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                                                Personally, I have been using the saffron that comes in 1 ounce tins
                                                from Indian markets -- a decent dye and taste. However, if you are
                                                looking for smaller amounts, have noticed that Trader Joes in
                                                Emeryville, CA is carrying 1 gram glass bottles of saffron from
                                                around
                                                2 dollars.
                                              • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                Whew! I now know more about saffron than was ever dreamt of in my philosophy. But no one answered why Elidyr s Little People were so fond of it, and I just
                                                Message 23 of 29 , May 6, 2005
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                                                  Whew! I now know more about saffron than was ever
                                                  dreamt of in my philosophy. But no one answered why
                                                  Elidyr's Little People were so fond of it, and I just
                                                  stumbled across a plausible answer myself....According
                                                  to the Physicians of Myddvai (South Wales, 13th
                                                  century), "If you would be at all times merry, eat
                                                  saffron in meat or drink, and you will never be sad;
                                                  but beware of eating over much, lest you should die of
                                                  excessive joy." So if the Folk spent all their time
                                                  in feasting, dancing, and merry-making, the saffron
                                                  fits right would be a big help.

                                                  Does anyone have a recipe for a dish made with milk
                                                  and saffron?

                                                  Andrea


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                                                • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
                                                  ... From what time period? Darioles are custard pies that are done with saffron. But if I recall correctly, they are 13th - 15th (somewhere in there. I can t
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , May 9, 2005
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                                                    > Does anyone have a recipe for a dish made with milk
                                                    > and saffron?
                                                    >
                                                    > Andrea

                                                    From what time period? Darioles are custard pies that are done with saffron.
                                                    But if I recall correctly, they are 13th - 15th (somewhere in there. I
                                                    can't remember this morning, it's been a long day already) English.

                                                    -----------------------------------------------------------
                                                    Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
                                                    Postdoctoral Fellow
                                                    Department of Biological Sciences
                                                    North Dakota State University
                                                    Stevens Hall
                                                    Fargo, ND 58105
                                                    jeffrey.heilveil@...
                                                  • glaukopisathene
                                                    ... Oooh! I have a really tasty one that I just tried last week. From an anonymous Tuscan cookbook, late 14th or early 15th c: Del farro di spelta. Togli il
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , May 9, 2005
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                                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                      <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Does anyone have a recipe for a dish made with milk
                                                      > and saffron?
                                                      >
                                                      > Andrea

                                                      Oooh! I have a really tasty one that I just tried last week. From an
                                                      anonymous Tuscan cookbook, late 14th or early 15th c:

                                                      Del farro di spelta.
                                                      Togli il farro de la spelta monda e rotta, e fallo bullire un poco; e
                                                      gittata via quella acqua lava il detto farro molto bene e ritornalo a
                                                      cocere con latte di capra o di pecora, ovvero d'amandole, fino che sia
                                                      ben cotto. Trita il cascio fresco e mestalo con albume d'ova e mettilo
                                                      nel detto farro bogliente, e bolla un poco. E puoi mettervi carne di
                                                      galline o di polli, a modo di blanchemangieri; e di sopra metti del
                                                      grasso del porco; e se 'l vuoli fare giallo, coloralo di zaffarano e
                                                      tuorla d'ova, e ponvi del zuccaro.

                                                      Spelt grain.
                                                      Take cracked spelt, picked over, and boil it a little; and with the
                                                      water thrown away wash said spelt very well and put it back to cook
                                                      with goat's or sheep's milk, or almond milk instead, until it is well
                                                      cooked. Mince fresh cheese and mix it with egg whites and put it in
                                                      said farro as it boils, and boil it a little. And then put in hen or
                                                      chicken meat, like a blancmange; and put pork fat on top of it; and if
                                                      you want to make it yellow, color it with saffron and egg yolks, and
                                                      add sugar.

                                                      I used spelt, but whole wheat berries or other grains should work too.
                                                      I parboiled them in water, then finished cooking it in goat's milk,
                                                      with saffron, added a beaten egg (whole, to get the color from the
                                                      yolk) and some farmers' cheese just at the point when the milk was
                                                      nearly all absorbed, let it heat through, and ate it very hot with
                                                      sugar on top. It was yummy, but not as good once it got cold.

                                                      Buon appetito!


                                                      Vittoria
                                                    • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                      ... This does sound yummy. I ll have to try it. I should have been more specific, though, about what I was looking for.... In the late 12th century, Gerald of
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , May 9, 2005
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                                                        --- glaukopisathene <phoenissa@...> wrote:
                                                        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd
                                                        > Lycsenbwrg
                                                        > <huwydd@y...> wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Does anyone have a recipe for a dish made with
                                                        > milk
                                                        > > and saffron?
                                                        > >
                                                        > > Andrea
                                                        >
                                                        > Oooh! I have a really tasty one that I just tried
                                                        > last week.

                                                        This does sound yummy. I'll have to try it.

                                                        I should have been more specific, though, about what
                                                        I was looking for.... In the late 12th century,
                                                        Gerald of Wales wrote down what he was told by a
                                                        priest who used to visit the Little People as a boy:
                                                        "They never ate meat or fish. They lived on various
                                                        milk dishes, made up into junkets flavoured with
                                                        saffron."

                                                        Now, if they didn't eat meat, I can't see them making
                                                        an actual junket, which is coagulated with rennet, so
                                                        I interpret that as simply some sort of pudding or
                                                        cheese-type dish.

                                                        Andrea



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                                                      • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                        ... 12th century Wales. Given the dearth of period Welsh cookbooks, however, the approved method seems to be to pick up references to whatever food one can in
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , May 9, 2005
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                                                          --- jeffrey.heilveil@... wrote:
                                                          >
                                                          > > Does anyone have a recipe for a dish made with
                                                          > milk
                                                          > > and saffron?
                                                          > >
                                                          > > Andrea
                                                          >
                                                          > From what time period?

                                                          12th century Wales. Given the dearth of period Welsh
                                                          cookbooks, however, the approved method seems to be to
                                                          pick up references to whatever food one can in the
                                                          literature, look for the recipes closest in
                                                          chronology and geography which fit the parameters
                                                          given, and extrapolate like mad. So 13th-15th century
                                                          English would be right on target!

                                                          Darioles are custard pies
                                                          > that are done with saffron.
                                                          > But if I recall correctly, they are 13th - 15th
                                                          > (somewhere in there. I
                                                          > can't remember this morning, it's been a long day
                                                          > already) English.

                                                          A google search for "darioles" yielded a number of
                                                          hits, all in French (which I will start learning after
                                                          I'm reasonably competent in Middle Welsh and Latin).
                                                          However, "daryoles" netted me a number of recipes,
                                                          some version of which should work quite nicely. Thaks
                                                          for the tip.

                                                          Given that the Welsh did not have "bread", that is,
                                                          wheat bread (English/French commentators did not feel
                                                          that flat oakcakes qualified) the Little People would
                                                          most likely have made a crustless custard. Did they
                                                          have eggs? Elidyr doesn't mention any sort of
                                                          domestic fowl, but I suppose one could postulate
                                                          either wild bird eggs or eggs "borrowed" from their
                                                          neighbors.

                                                          Andrea



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                                                        • Heather Rose Jones
                                                          ... It would probably be worthwhile to discover what the original Latin term was that is being translated as junket . It will give you a more accurate
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , May 9, 2005
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                                                            At 10:53 AM -0700 5/9/05, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg wrote:

                                                            > I should have been more specific, though, about what
                                                            >I was looking for.... In the late 12th century,
                                                            >Gerald of Wales wrote down what he was told by a
                                                            >priest who used to visit the Little People as a boy:
                                                            >"They never ate meat or fish. They lived on various
                                                            >milk dishes, made up into junkets flavoured with
                                                            >saffron."
                                                            >
                                                            >Now, if they didn't eat meat, I can't see them making
                                                            >an actual junket, which is coagulated with rennet, so
                                                            >I interpret that as simply some sort of pudding or
                                                            >cheese-type dish.

                                                            It would probably be worthwhile to discover what the original Latin
                                                            term was that is being translated as "junket". It will give you a
                                                            more accurate starting point for your extrapolations. (If I knew,
                                                            I'd tell you, but I haven't yet managed to track down my own copy of
                                                            the original text of Gerald's works.)

                                                            Tangwystyl
                                                            --
                                                            --
                                                            Heather Rose Jones
                                                            heather.jones@...
                                                          • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                                                            ... Good point. Meanwhile, though, since another translation renders the phrase made up into messes with saffron , I suspect the term is not all that
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , May 19, 2005
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                                                              --- Heather Rose Jones <heather.jones@...>
                                                              wrote:


                                                              >
                                                              > It would probably be worthwhile to discover what the
                                                              > original Latin
                                                              > term was that is being translated as "junket".

                                                              Good point. Meanwhile, though, since another
                                                              translation renders the phrase "made up into messes
                                                              with saffron", I suspect the term is not all that
                                                              specific.

                                                              Andrea

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