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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Yummy Period Turkish Food

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  • jeffrey.heilveil@ndsu.edu
    ... Via webpage and classes taught at events, most likely. ... The events are still in the planning stages, but probably December. ... As yet, I have no clue.
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 11, 2005
      It was asked:
      > Cool. I look forward to the information. Where/how will you be making
      > this accessible?

      Via webpage and classes taught at events, most likely.

      >
      > >I'll also be at either the next Middle Kingdom,
      > >or Known Worlde Cook's Symposium talking about the document.
      >
      > When and where will the Cooks' Symposium be?

      The events are still in the planning stages, but probably December.


      >
      > >There are comments on clothing too though that I hope to provide to
      > >people, like that the Turks, according to Derschwam, all kept a spoon on
      > >their belt for eating yogurt (which he, by the by, REALLY didn't like).
      >
      > OK, did he mean "all Turks" or did he really mean "Turkish
      > men"?

      As yet, I have no clue. From what I have heard elsewhere there are
      copious comments about clothing, so as I get some of them translated, one
      might hope that there is a differentiation between which the males wore
      and which the females wore. From the text I've thus far translated,
      there's no way to tell. I can't very well ask him either. :-)

      Cu respectivo,
      Bogdan
      -----------------------------------------------------------
      Jeffrey S. Heilveil, Ph.D.
      Postdoctoral Fellow
      Department of Biological Sciences
      North Dakota State University
      Stevens Hall
      Fargo, ND 58105
      jeffrey.heilveil@...
    • Kevin Myers
      ... The irony is that the Galatians, living in central Turkey (?), were a Celtic tribe.... Cainnech R. mcGuairi __________________________________ Do you
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 11, 2005
        --- Susan Farmer <sfarmer@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Jerusha (the culturally illiterate) sees a faint glimmer of light!
        > I bet this is like the whole "Celtic" thing, isn't it. Can you
        > either elucidate a tad more on the whole Turkic (intersting word,
        > there) thing -- or point me in the direction of some reference
        > material that I might educate myself!
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Jerusha

        The irony is that the Galatians, living in central Turkey (?), were a
        Celtic tribe....

        Cainnech R. mcGuairi




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      • lilinah@earthlink.net
        ... I mentioned some of it in the preceding message. But for a little more info, here s a very brief essay that i wrote a number of years ago:
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 11, 2005
          Jerusha wrote:
          >lilinah@e... wrote:
          > > Yeah, in this case clearly Ottoman. Thanks for letting me know.
          > >
          > > I have this *thing* about the words "Turk" or "Turkish" as used by
          > > many SCAdians. Since there are, as i mentioned, a number of other
          > > significant Turkic peoples in SCA period, just saying "Turkish" is
          > > really not very meaningful in e-mail unless the context is clear, and
          > > in my experience, it rarely is. Naturally, once i have context the
          > > use becomes clear, such as in the case you mention.
          >
          >Jerusha (the culturally illiterate) sees a faint glimmer of light!
          >I bet this is like the whole "Celtic" thing, isn't it. Can you
          >either elucidate a tad more on the whole Turkic (intersting word,
          >there) thing -- or point me in the direction of some reference
          >material that I might educate myself!

          I mentioned some of it in the preceding message. But for a little
          more info, here's a very brief essay that i wrote a number of years
          ago:
          http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah/Library/KnowYourTurks.html
          This should at least provide an introduction.
          --
          Urtatim, formerly Anahita
        • lilinah@earthlink.net
          ... Ah, hah! Now we encounter the difficulty of separating SCA-period places and cultures from our modern terms... Italy and Germany, for example, didn t exist
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 12, 2005
            Kevin Myers <dobharchu@...> wrote:
            >The irony is that the Galatians, living in central Turkey (?), were a
            >Celtic tribe....
            >
            >Cainnech R. mcGuairi

            Ah, hah! Now we encounter the difficulty of separating SCA-period
            places and cultures from our modern terms...

            Italy and Germany, for example, didn't exist until around 1870. Of
            course geographically they did, but not as the unique geo-political
            entities with those names. But as short hand we (and i include
            myself) tend to use the modern terms when talking about those areas
            in SCA-period, even though they weren't called by those names.

            So, Cainnech, you are referring to a location in the modern
            geo-political entity of Turkey, not to be confused with... oh, well,
            let me not get more confused than i already am :-)

            Anyway, i suspect that the region you mean is what is often called
            Anatolia - the larger part of modern Turkey which is in Southwest
            Asia.
            --
            Urtatim, formerly Anahita
          • Kevin Myers
            ... Just waitin to pounch weren t ye? :) Yes. Of course I was referring to the region now known as Turkey. Also called Asia Minor, right? And these Galatians
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 12, 2005
              --- lilinah@... wrote:

              > So, Cainnech, you are referring to a location in the modern
              > geo-political entity of Turkey, not to be confused with... oh, well,
              > let me not get more confused than i already am :-)

              Just waitin' to pounch weren't ye? :)

              Yes. Of course I was referring to the region now known as Turkey.
              Also called Asia Minor, right? And these Galatians were from around
              what is now called Ankara too. Right?

              Wasn't that area also part of the Hittite Empire too at some point? Or
              was that further southwest of central Anatolia?

              I'm just a Dal Riadic Hiberno-Norse Gall-Ghaidhealach who wouldn't be
              able to find Scotland on a map either--since it didn't exist as such in
              my period. Alba was still used only to refer to the Island that is
              called Britain now. So, Turkey?? And then there's this Persian friend
              of mine who insists on calling me a Frank. It's all the same to her.

              -Cainnech

              > Anyway, i suspect that the region you mean is what is often called
              > Anatolia - the larger part of modern Turkey which is in Southwest
              > Asia.
              > --
              > Urtatim, formerly Anahita
              >
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            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              As i believe i ve mentioned here, i have translated into English a French book about 15th and 16th c. Ottoman food (primarily as eaten in Istanbul and nearby
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 17, 2006
                As i believe i've mentioned here, i have
                translated into English a French book about 15th
                and 16th c. Ottoman food (primarily as eaten in
                Istanbul and nearby large cities)

                Stephane Yerasimos
                A la table du Grand Turc
                Editions Actes Sud, from the 'L'Orient Gourmand / Sindbad' series
                Arles France, 2001

                I'm nearly done typing it in from my handwritten translation.

                Well, waaaaay back on Thusday, 7 April 2005, Jeffrey S. Heilveil wrote:
                >Only to be eaten by non-European personae, thanks to Hans Derschwam.
                >
                >From a 1553-1555 account:
                >
                >Rice boiled in honey-water. Throw saffron on it, and sprinkle with
                >almonds roasted in fat.
                >
                >It is REALLY REALLY good. I'll be making it for the class I'm teaching
                >this weekend.

                In Yerasimos I found a description of what may
                well have been the dish that Hans Derschwam ate.
                Yerasimos found much food information in the
                account books of the palaces and soup
                kitchens/alms houses, records of circumcision
                celebrations, menus from sultan's meals, and
                tales of feasts by ambassadors from Europe to
                Istanbul.

                ----- begin quote from my translation -----

                Zerde

                Literally "yellow dish", from the Persian zerd.
                It is the most popular sweet dish and the
                indispensable accompaniment to pilaf in all the
                public soup kitchens/alms houses, where it was
                served on particular occasions: on Friday
                evenings, on the evenings of Ramadan, the days of
                the two great holidays, and those of the birth
                and the ascension of the Prophet Muhammad. It is
                sometimes qualified as a dish of the poor by the
                account books of the celebrations of 1539 and
                appears only in the common/public feasts. It is
                replaced in the feast of dignitaries by the zerde
                with milk, where the milk steps in with an equal
                quantity with the sugar. The simple zerde appears
                in the menu of Topkap┬× in winter. Shirvani, as
                well as the cookbooks of the XVIII century and of
                the beginning of the XIX century are unaware of
                it.

                ----- end quote -----

                Yerasimos could not find a "period" recipe, but
                the ingredients as described in documents of the
                era are
                rice, water or milk, sugar, starch, saffron,
                pounded pistachios, and sliced almonds. He
                supplied a recipe derived from modern recipes. In
                the modern recipe, the rice is cooked in the
                water with the sugar until half done. Saffron is
                crushed in a small amount of warm water, and
                starch (historically wheat starch, modernly
                cornstarch) is diluted in the necessary quantity
                of warm water. Both are added to the half-cooked
                rice. It is then cooked until it is thick and the
                rice is soft. It is poured into serving bowls and
                let cool. Then it is topped with pistachios and
                almonds and served.

                I also found a very similar dish called Zard
                Pulao in a Moghul cookbook supposedly from the
                first half of the 17th century,
                Nuskha-e-Shahjahani - actually there are TWO Zard
                Pulao recipes. Clearly the name is from the same
                Persian word as the Ottoman dish. Both Moghul
                recipes include quantities of ingredients in
                archaic measurements.

                In one Moghul recipe, a syrup is made of the
                water and sugar, then saffron and ghee (clarified
                butter) are added to the syrup, which is then set
                aside. Next, rice is half-cooked in water, after
                which the saffron-ghee-syrup is stirred in, a bit
                more ghee is poured on top, the pot is sealed,
                and the dish is steamed over a low fire. The
                finished dish is served with raisins, pistachios,
                and almonds fried (in butter).

                In the second Mughul recipe for Zard Pulao, a
                syrup is made of water, sugar, and some ground
                cinnamon. Then the rice is half-cooked in water,
                after which the spiced syrup is added, ghee is
                poured on top, the pot is sealed, and the dish is
                steamed on a low fire. It is served with fried
                raisins. HOWEVER, the ingredients listed include
                cloves and cardamom, so i assume they were added
                to the syrup with the cinnamon - and the raisins
                are not in the ingredient list.

                I have not yet cooked any of the four versions to
                see how they differ. I intend to when i get "A la
                table du Grand Turc" typed in and partly revised.

                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
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