Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Oh Hat Mavens...

Expand Messages
  • Jeff Heilveil
    Help me Hat Mavens... Here s a picture of an external wall painted in the 1400s. I want to know how to make the hat... or even just suggestions.
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 27, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Help me Hat Mavens...
      Here's a picture of an external wall painted in the 1400s. I want to know
      how to make the hat... or even just suggestions.
      http://www.no19parkside.co.uk/graphics/rom/voro9.jpg

      thanks.
      Cu drag,
      Bogdan
      _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

      Ecotourism: Having people pay money to see exotic INSECTS in THEIR native
      habitats

      Ecoterrorism: Having PEOPLE pay money to _not_ see exotic insects in THEIR
      native habitats
      _______________________________________________________________________________
      Jeffrey Heilveil M.S. Ld. Bogdan de la Brasov, C.W.
      Department of Entomology A Bear's paw and base vert on field argent
      University of Illinois
      heilveil@...
      home: (217) 355-5702
      _______________________________________________________________________________
    • Cynthia Virtue
      That looks *just* like Rashid s picture he uploaded to the What We Look Like folder. I bet he ll answer when he gets back online. ... -- Cynthia du Pré
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 27, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        That looks *just* like Rashid's picture he uploaded to the What We Look
        Like folder. I bet he'll answer when he gets back online.

        Jeff Heilveil wrote:
        >
        > Help me Hat Mavens...
        > Here's a picture of an external wall painted in the 1400s. I want to know
        > how to make the hat... or even just suggestions.
        > http://www.no19parkside.co.uk/graphics/rom/voro9.jpg

        --
        Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)

        “Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman
        she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill
        again.” -- alleged TV listing for the Wizard of Oz in the Marin
        Independent Journal
      • unclrashid@aol.com
        ... to know ... See Rashid s Persian Stuff in our files section on this site. I have an article on this hat in there. The article is a draft and I m not
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 27, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Jeff Heilveil <heilveil@u...> wrote:
          > Help me Hat Mavens...
          > Here's a picture of an external wall painted in the 1400s. I want
          to know
          > how to make the hat... or even just suggestions.
          > http://www.no19parkside.co.uk/graphics/rom/voro9.jpg
          >
          > thanks.
          > Cu drag,
          > Bogdan

          See "Rashid's Persian Stuff" in our files section on this site. I
          have an article on this hat in there. The article is a draft and I'm
          not sure if I mention that it is usually worn underneath a turban.

          You see this hat in almost all Persian art of the 1500's. It is
          called a "Taj" and at one point, to wear it in a certain color (red)
          meant you were a supporter of the Quizalbat party's candidate in the
          dynastic succession who I believe was the eventually successful Shah
          Tahmasp. Persian painting reached it's greatest flowering during the
          first half of his reign under his patronage, and then in his old age
          he got all holy (we're talking Islam here) and shut down most of the
          studios, causing scads of artists to migrate to the Ottoman and
          Mughal empires.

          Can you please give me more info on this fresco?

          Rashid
        • unclrashid@aol.com
          ... to know ... _ _ _ ... PS. See my picture in what we look like I m wearing one
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 27, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Jeff Heilveil <heilveil@u...> wrote:
            > Help me Hat Mavens...
            > Here's a picture of an external wall painted in the 1400s. I want
            to know
            > how to make the hat... or even just suggestions.
            > http://www.no19parkside.co.uk/graphics/rom/voro9.jpg
            >
            > thanks.
            > Cu drag,
            > Bogdan
            > _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
            _ _ _
            >

            PS. See my picture in "what we look like" I'm wearing one
          • Anthony J. Bryant
            ... I can tell you a bit. It looks like a mural on a Church wall, as it has an inscription in (probably) Old Church Slavonic. The legend says Tusky (the U
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 27, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              unclrashid@... wrote:

              >
              >
              > You see this hat in almost all Persian art of the 1500's. It is
              > called a "Taj" and at one point, to wear it in a certain color (red)
              > meant you were a supporter of the Quizalbat party's candidate in the
              > dynastic succession who I believe was the eventually successful Shah
              > Tahmasp. Persian painting reached it's greatest flowering during the
              > first half of his reign under his patronage, and then in his old age
              > he got all holy (we're talking Islam here) and shut down most of the
              > studios, causing scads of artists to migrate to the Ottoman and
              > Mughal empires.
              >
              > Can you please give me more info on this fresco?

              I can tell you a bit. It looks like a mural on a Church wall, as it has an inscription in (probably) Old Church Slavonic. The legend says
              "Tusky" (the U being pronounced like "moon"). I'm willing to bet it's a "them and us" illustration, and there's a similar group of people
              on the other side looking the other way, with some religious event (the final judgment?) in between.

              Effingham
            • unclrashid@aol.com
              ... has an inscription in (probably) Old Church Slavonic. The legend says ... it s a them and us illustration, and there s a similar group of people ... (the
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 27, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., "Anthony J. Bryant" <ajbryant@i...> wrote:
                > unclrashid@a... wrote:
                > > Can you please give me more info on this fresco?
                >
                > I can tell you a bit. It looks like a mural on a Church wall, as it
                has an inscription in (probably) Old Church Slavonic. The legend says
                > "Tusky" (the U being pronounced like "moon"). I'm willing to bet
                it's a "them and us" illustration, and there's a similar group of
                people
                > on the other side looking the other way, with some religious event
                (the final judgment?) in between.
                >

                For those of us who are not necessarily linguisically gifted... Tell
                me if I am guessing right:

                Old church slavonic = some kind of Russian

                If not, then what area would that indicate this painting is from?

                Thanks,
                Rashid
              • Anthony J. Bryant
                ... Possibly Serbia or Bulgaria, or somewhere in western Russian turf (Ukraine, Moldova, Belorus)... It s later period style, which would put it outside the
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 27, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  unclrashid@... wrote:

                  >
                  > For those of us who are not necessarily linguisically gifted... Tell
                  > me if I am guessing right:
                  >
                  > Old church slavonic = some kind of Russian
                  >
                  > If not, then what area would that indicate this painting is from?
                  >

                  Possibly Serbia or Bulgaria, or somewhere in western Russian turf (Ukraine, Moldova, Belorus)...

                  It's later period style, which would put it outside the realm of direct Contantinopolitan style; the writing is clearly not Greek, even if
                  it might be close to the city.



                  Effingham
                • Mark Calderwood
                  ... This sort of hat is also common in Ottoman art, usually referred to as a Tarbus (which isn t much help as that means hat ). Rashid, what s your source for
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 28, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > > Here's a picture of an external wall painted in the 1400s. I want
                    >to know
                    > > how to make the hat... or even just suggestions.
                    >See "Rashid's Persian Stuff" in our files section on this site. I
                    >have an article on this hat in there. The article is a draft and I'm
                    >not sure if I mention that it is usually worn underneath a turban.

                    This sort of hat is also common in Ottoman art, usually referred to as a
                    Tarbus (which isn't much help as that means "hat"). Rashid, what's your
                    source for pleating the crown? (Great outfit in your picture in the files,
                    btw, very flash, and dead sexy boots too!) Kilic and I found sources
                    describing it as a twelve-panelled hat, each panel representing one of the
                    twelve Shi'ite imams. The versions we made were fitted to the head like a
                    normal turban cap, then continued up into 12 sewn panels. The pleating
                    would be much easier though. Have you seen the Ottoman talisman shirts,
                    with the magic squares and calligraphy all over? Suleyman the Magnificent
                    had a turban-cap decorated the same way, isn't that cool? :o)

                    Giles
                  • unclrashid@aol.com
                    ... as a ... your ... GIles, I have to admit thqat this hat is mostly conjectural, but here is my train of thought: 1. I found one reference in a textile book
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 28, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Mark Calderwood <mark-c@a...> wrote:
                      >
                      > This sort of hat is also common in Ottoman art, usually referred to
                      as a
                      > Tarbus (which isn't much help as that means "hat"). Rashid, what's
                      your
                      > source for pleating the crown?

                      GIles,

                      I have to admit thqat this hat is mostly conjectural, but here is my
                      train of thought:

                      1. I found one reference in a textile book that an extant hat exists
                      and is made of 2 layers of silk with batting in between. (no picture
                      of said hat)

                      2. Paintings showing this type of hat can be found frequently,
                      occasionally you can find one worn without turban. A book where you
                      can see a few is "SUltan Ibraim MIrza's HAft Awrang" (rather
                      expensive).

                      3. Illustrations seem to show two different styles:

                      a. skull cap with fluted tube attached.

                      b. a cylinder the diameter of head that is pleated into a fluted
                      tube as it apporaches crown of head.

                      These may actually be exactly same hat illustrated with different
                      levels of detail, but this does seem to indicate they were pleated.

                      >(Great outfit in your picture in the files,
                      > btw, very flash, and dead sexy boots too!) Kilic and I found
                      sources

                      "Dead sexy?" HAve you been consorting with our Kiwi friends? I made
                      those boots (they are the tester pattern, really) out of an old sued
                      skirt I found in the trash room in my apartment building.

                      > describing it as a twelve-panelled hat, each panel representing one
                      of the
                      > twelve Shi'ite imams. The versions we made were fitted to the head
                      like a
                      > normal turban cap, then continued up into 12 sewn panels. The
                      pleating
                      > would be much easier though.

                      In deference to this thing about twelves, I made 12 pleats on mine.


                      >Have you seen the Ottoman talisman shirts,
                      > with the magic squares and calligraphy all over? Suleyman the
                      Magnificent
                      > had a turban-cap decorated the same way, isn't that cool? :o)
                      >

                      I saw Mehmed the Conqueror's talismanic shirt in the "flesh" so to
                      speak at an exhibit in DC. Did you know the bottom outside facing on
                      that shirt is bias?

                      My only gripe about that catolog (it's quite lovely) is that they
                      tried to photograph the "good" details, and I think you learn a lot
                      more from details of the "falling apart places".

                      One of the caftans had toggle buttons made of fired clay cylinder
                      beads with a wire stuck perpindicular out of the side of cylinder as
                      a shank. Button was covered in silk wrapped around, through center,
                      around, through center etc. This could be seen quite clearly on some
                      of the frayed buttons. But in the catolag, they show you a close up
                      of the unfrayed, uninformative buttons. Sheesh!!(If I may steal one
                      of Kass's favorite words)

                      Rahsid
                    • Cynthia Virtue
                      ... As I was pondering the shape yesterday (amidst watching the tourney and chatting with folks) I was wondering if the thing was indeed fabric, because that
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 29, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        unclrashid@... wrote:
                        > b. a cylinder the diameter of head that is pleated into a fluted
                        > tube as it apporaches crown of head.

                        As I was pondering the shape yesterday (amidst watching the tourney and
                        chatting with folks) I was wondering if the thing was indeed fabric,
                        because that fluted look can also be indicative of fine
                        wickerwork/basketry weaving.

                        --
                        Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)

                        The house was lined throughout with an exquisite metal that resembled
                        translucent frosted silver, and from the metal itself was radiated the
                        soft light which flooded the room. "That's radium," answered the Chief.
                        "It is a medicine, too, and no one can ever be sick who lives near
                        radium." -- The Patchwork Girl of OZ.
                      • unclrashid@aol.com
                        ... and ... There is an extant one (No picture) in a museum somewhere that was described in an Islamic textile book as two layers of silk dyed madder red with
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 29, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...> wrote:
                          > unclrashid@a... wrote:
                          > > b. a cylinder the diameter of head that is pleated into a fluted
                          > > tube as it apporaches crown of head.
                          >
                          > As I was pondering the shape yesterday (amidst watching the tourney
                          and
                          > chatting with folks) I was wondering if the thing was indeed fabric,
                          > because that fluted look can also be indicative of fine
                          > wickerwork/basketry weaving.
                          >
                          > --
                          > Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)
                          >
                          There is an extant one (No picture) in a museum somewhere that was
                          described in an Islamic textile book as "two layers of silk dyed
                          madder red with batting in between".

                          Rahsid
                        • Cynthia Virtue
                          ... Aha! -- Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East) Such virtue hath my pen....
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 29, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            > There is an extant one (No picture) in a museum somewhere that was
                            > described in an Islamic textile book as "two layers of silk dyed
                            > madder red with batting in between".

                            Aha!
                            <muttering about lucky folks who have existing hats to know about>

                            --
                            Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)
                            "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI
                            "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
                          • unclrashid@aol.com
                            ... was ... Don t be too jealous, Cynthia. What I quoted was the *entire* description. Not exactly complete (I feel that talking about costume without
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 29, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Cynthia Virtue <cvirtue@t...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > There is an extant one (No picture) in a museum somewhere that
                              was
                              > > described in an Islamic textile book as "two layers of silk dyed
                              > > madder red with batting in between".
                              >
                              > Aha!
                              > <muttering about lucky folks who have existing hats to know about>
                              >
                              > --
                              > Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)

                              Don't be too jealous, Cynthia. What I quoted was the *entire*
                              description. Not exactly complete (I feel that talking about costume
                              without diagrams and pictures is an exercise in linguistics that may
                              lead to an understanding of the *names* of things, but doesn't
                              increase your net comprehension about those things themselves)

                              Rashid
                            • Irmele von Grünsberg
                              ... This idea of a wicker foundation has come up before, and I think it deserves study. Does anyone know whether any extant hats exist? (The only one I know of
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 29, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Cynthia Virtue wrote:

                                > because that fluted look can also be indicative of fine
                                > wickerwork/basketry weaving.

                                This idea of a wicker foundation has come up before, and I think
                                it deserves study. Does anyone know whether any extant hats
                                exist? (The only one I know of is a scottish flat cap dating from
                                the early 17th century.)

                                Irmele von Grünsberg
                                Shire of Darach
                                Kingdom of Caid
                              • Cynthia Virtue
                                ... Yeah, I ve been proposing it as a possible solution to some hatmaking conundrums for seven years or so. It certainly works well in practice. If the
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 29, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  > This idea of a wicker foundation has come up before,

                                  Yeah, I've been proposing it as a possible solution to some hatmaking
                                  conundrums for seven years or so. It certainly works well in practice.
                                  If the Sca-garb lists and the H-Costume list are representative, it was
                                  an original idea to the historical costume community when I started
                                  suggesting it. At the very least, it is technically achievable with
                                  medieval methods.

                                  > Does anyone know whether any extant hats exist?

                                  There are all the ones in Janet Arnold. There are none for prior to
                                  1500, save for hoods, a knitted cap, and some very early coiflike items
                                  (the Museum of London books address these, and the Coppergate books), at
                                  least not that have been published or regularly discussed. There are
                                  some silk-covered wires that could have been hat supports. It's a great frustration.

                                  I would love to discuss this at any time with anyone!

                                  --
                                  Cynthia du Pré Argent (Hartshorn-dale, East)
                                  "Such virtue hath my pen...." -Shakespeare, Sonnet LXXXI
                                  "I knew this wasn't _my_ pen!" --Cynthia V.
                                • dannw@pathcom.com
                                  ... to ... exists ... It all sounds fascinating...what book??? Please, more details... Cheers, Gwendoline the bibliofile
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 30, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., unclrashid@a... wrote:
                                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., Mark Calderwood <mark-c@a...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > This sort of hat is also common in Ottoman art, usually referred
                                    to
                                    > as a
                                    > > Tarbus (which isn't much help as that means "hat"). Rashid, what's
                                    > your
                                    > > source for pleating the crown?
                                    >
                                    > GIles,
                                    >
                                    > I have to admit thqat this hat is mostly conjectural, but here is my
                                    > train of thought:
                                    >
                                    > 1. I found one reference in a textile book that an extant hat
                                    exists
                                    > and is made of 2 layers of silk with batting in between. (no picture
                                    > of said hat)

                                    It all sounds fascinating...what book??? Please, more details...

                                    Cheers,
                                    Gwendoline the bibliofile
                                  • unclrashid@aol.com
                                    ... sounds fascinating...what book??? Please, more details... ... Book is Islamic Textiles by Petricial L Baker, British Museum Press. Hat reference is on
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 30, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., dannw@p... wrote:
                                      > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., unclrashid@a... wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > 1. I found one reference in a textile book that an extant hat
                                      > exists
                                      > > and is made of 2 layers of silk with batting in between. > It all
                                      sounds fascinating...what book??? Please, more details...
                                      >
                                      > Cheers,
                                      > Gwendoline the bibliofile

                                      Book is "Islamic Textiles" by Petricial L Baker, British Museum Press.

                                      Hat reference is on page 112, ch. Safavid Splendor, Textiles at court.

                                      If you have not seen this book, I highly reccomend it. Published in
                                      1995 it re-attributes and re-provenances scads of textiles shown in
                                      earlier publications. These re-attributions are due to current
                                      technical analysis of textiles based on dye chemistry and weave
                                      type. Prior (presumed incorrect) attributions in other publications
                                      were done based on Pattern motifs on textiles.

                                      Rashid
                                    • dannw@pathcom.com
                                      ... all ... Press. ... court. ... Thank you Rashid!!! It s been added to my wish list. I wonder if I can get away with calling it a school book...
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 30, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., unclrashid@a... wrote:
                                        > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., dannw@p... wrote:
                                        > > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., unclrashid@a... wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > 1. I found one reference in a textile book that an extant hat
                                        > > exists
                                        > > > and is made of 2 layers of silk with batting in between. > It
                                        all
                                        > sounds fascinating...what book??? Please, more details...
                                        > >
                                        > > Cheers,
                                        > > Gwendoline the bibliofile
                                        >
                                        > Book is "Islamic Textiles" by Petricial L Baker, British Museum
                                        Press.
                                        >
                                        > Hat reference is on page 112, ch. Safavid Splendor, Textiles at
                                        court.
                                        >
                                        > If you have not seen this book, I highly reccomend it. Published in
                                        > 1995 it re-attributes and re-provenances scads of textiles shown in
                                        > earlier publications. These re-attributions are due to current
                                        > technical analysis of textiles based on dye chemistry and weave
                                        > type. Prior (presumed incorrect) attributions in other publications
                                        > were done based on Pattern motifs on textiles.

                                        Thank you Rashid!!! It's been added to my "wish" list. <G> I wonder
                                        if I can get away with calling it a school book... <G>

                                        In found this one while I was looking for the other one and was
                                        wondering if you knew anything about it:
                                        "Islamic Textiles" by R.B. Serjeant

                                        Cheers,
                                        Gwendoline
                                      • unclrashid@aol.com
                                        ... nope. haven t seen it. will have to hunt for it though. Rashid
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Apr 30, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., dannw@p... wrote:
                                          > In found this one while I was looking for the other one and was
                                          > wondering if you knew anything about it:
                                          > "Islamic Textiles" by R.B. Serjeant
                                          >
                                          > Cheers,
                                          > Gwendoline

                                          nope. haven't seen it.
                                          will have to hunt for it though.

                                          Rashid
                                        • dannw@pathcom.com
                                          ... I found it at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0866850287/qid=988658624/sr=1-2 /ref=sc_b_3/102-7567679-7744137 So I was just wondering... Cheers, G
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Apr 30, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., unclrashid@a... wrote:
                                            > --- In Authentic_SCA@y..., dannw@p... wrote:
                                            > > In found this one while I was looking for the other one and was
                                            > > wondering if you knew anything about it:
                                            > > "Islamic Textiles" by R.B. Serjeant
                                            > >
                                            > > Cheers,
                                            > > Gwendoline
                                            >
                                            > nope. haven't seen it.
                                            > will have to hunt for it though.
                                            >
                                            > Rashid

                                            I found it at:
                                            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0866850287/qid=988658624/sr=1-2
                                            /ref=sc_b_3/102-7567679-7744137

                                            So I was just wondering...

                                            Cheers,
                                            G
                                          • Mark Calderwood
                                            ... Indeed not sir! :o) Far too much British television... I have the leather sitting around somewhere for a pair of jigsaw-appliqued Ottoman boots in pink and
                                            Message 21 of 22 , May 1, 2001
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              >(Great outfit in your picture in the files,
                                              > > btw, very flash, and dead sexy boots too!)
                                              >
                                              >"Dead sexy?" HAve you been consorting with our Kiwi friends?

                                              Indeed not sir! :o) Far too much British television... I have the leather
                                              sitting around somewhere for a pair of jigsaw-appliqued Ottoman boots in
                                              pink and brown, one of these years. I've also found a pair of Ottoman boots
                                              made in the same way from silk brocades, but they date to 1667.

                                              >I saw Mehmed the Conqueror's talismanic shirt in the "flesh" so to
                                              >speak at an exhibit in DC. Did you know the bottom outside facing on
                                              >that shirt is bias?

                                              Did actually, it's mentioned in my big book of the Topkapi Saray textiles
                                              and garments. It looks like the facing panels on shirts and caftan were
                                              usually cut on the bias.

                                              >One of the caftans had toggle buttons made of fired clay cylinder
                                              >beads with a wire stuck perpindicular out of the side of cylinder as
                                              >a shank. Button was covered in silk wrapped around, through center,
                                              >around, through center etc. This could be seen quite clearly on some
                                              >of the frayed buttons. But in the catolag, they show you a close up
                                              >of the unfrayed, uninformative buttons. Sheesh!!(If I may steal one
                                              >of Kass's favorite words)

                                              Oooh, that's interesting...I'd so far been hypothesising that the buttons
                                              were silk wrapped over a wooden core, and clay never occurred to me. Thank
                                              you! :o)

                                              Giles
                                            • Mark Calderwood
                                              ... Another great book is Silk and Religion: an exploration material life and the thought of the people AD 600-1200, by Xinru Liu, Delhi: Oxford University
                                              Message 22 of 22 , May 1, 2001
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Book is "Islamic Textiles" by Petricial L Baker, British Museum Press.

                                                Another great book is Silk and Religion: an exploration material life and the thought of the people AD 600-1200, by Xinru Liu, Delhi: Oxford University Press 1996, ISBN 0195636554. It's very rare and hard to get (mine is a photocopy from Fischer Library at Sydney Uni), but eminently worth the trouble.

                                                I also want a copy of "Silk for the Sultans" about the Ottoman textile industry, but seeing as that's $375 USD it's not going to happen...

                                                Giles
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.