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Re: Elizabethan era heraldic clothing?

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  • Julie Stackable, SCA Margaret Hepburn
    Dear Christina, so, found my copy of Kohler last night. I scanned the picture to enlarge the heraldic bit around the hem to try and get a better date by maybe
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 18, 2005
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      Dear Christina,
      so, found my copy of Kohler last night. I scanned the picture to
      enlarge the heraldic bit around the hem to try and get a better date
      by maybe matching up the heraldry, because I don't buy a date of
      1550 for this gown. I'm not that familiar with German clothing, but
      this doesn't look like anything from mid-century to me. Unless, and
      this is pure conjecture, IF sideless surcotes, though out of fashion
      generally, survived in England as Heraldic/Ceremonial dress, which
      they _might_ have, perhaps this was the Bavarian version, an older
      style dress still worn for ceremony.

      I didn't have any luck matching up the heraldry, there is too much
      German civic heraldry on the internet that's not dated plus the
      picture is too fuzzy to get an accurate blazon to match it by that,
      but it did look vaguely similar to the Bavarian heraldry....

      But, one thing I could tell when I enlarged it - all three coats of
      arms that are visible appear to be identical. The one that's on the
      center front also has a coronet above it. I would guess that this
      dress was probably worn by one of the Herzogen for ceremony, perhaps
      for a wedding? Also, the shields are clearly add ons, they stand out
      from the fabric so are not painted on, but are, I would guess
      embroidered first & then appliqued on, they appear rather bulky.

      I surfed for quite a while last night trying to find any evidence of
      this dress but couldn't find anything. Hopefully, it might turn up
      in another Victorian era costuming book somewhere... It might have
      been lost in the War or perhaps went the way of a lot of costume in
      Europe, cut up by Victorians/Edwardian for fancy dress, esp. if they
      were in a private collection (& the Kohler book doesn't indicate
      where this dress was, unfortunately). Considering it was decorated
      with heraldry, that part was probably cut off & used for something
      else...

      Anyway, as you say, it did exist at _one_ point and as I will not be
      using this in competition or anything, I feel fine using small
      heraldic shields around the hem of my Spanish surcote....

      Cheers,
      Margaret
      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "xina007eu"
      <Christina_Lemke@h...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Margaret,
      > if you are desperate enough to use Norris as a source, have you
      seen
      > the photo in Köhler that shows a dress with Bavarian coats ot arms
      > around the hem, dated to mid-16th century? Provenance and current
      > wherabouts unknown, probably destroyed in WWII I guess, but it's a
      > photo of an actual dress that existed when Emma von Sichart took
      the
      > photos and that she judged to be a genuine 16th century artefact.
      Or
      > is that the garment that made you mention 1550 as the end date of
      the
      > results of your research?
      > Best regards,
      >
      > Christina
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