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German (?) cape-coats and monkeys making ruffs

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  • msgilliandurham
    This is a costuming question -- I m looking for more information on a German Renaissance garment -- I m blanking on the name (which is probably why I m having
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 29, 2004
      This is a costuming question --

      I'm looking for more information on a German Renaissance garment --
      I'm blanking on the name (which is probably why I'm having problems
      finding any info ...)

      It's described in Janet Winter's Elizabethan Costuming (yes, I know,
      not the most accurate book in the world) as being a full circle
      cloak, hip length, with 2-piece sleeves. She says in England it was
      only worn by men, but in Germany it was sometimes worn by women as
      well.

      In the picture of the monkeys making ruffs, the figure 2nd? 3rd?
      from the left is wearing one.

      I'm in the middle of swapping the dining room and the sewing room,
      and cannot find my Janet Winter anywhere (my apartments eats things,
      I swear) so any help, even just the name of the garment, would be
      very very much appreciated.

      Gillian Durham
    • Mary Taran
      ... Look for schaube . Mary Taran -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 29, 2004
        At 10:42 AM 12/29/2004, you wrote:
        >This is a costuming question --
        >
        >I'm looking for more information on a German Renaissance garment --
        >I'm blanking on the name (which is probably why I'm having problems
        >finding any info ...)
        >
        >It's described in Janet Winter's Elizabethan Costuming (yes, I know,
        >not the most accurate book in the world) as being a full circle
        >cloak, hip length, with 2-piece sleeves. She says in England it was
        >only worn by men, but in Germany it was sometimes worn by women as
        >well.
        >
        >In the picture of the monkeys making ruffs, the figure 2nd? 3rd?
        >from the left is wearing one.
        >
        >I'm in the middle of swapping the dining room and the sewing room,
        >and cannot find my Janet Winter anywhere (my apartments eats things,
        >I swear) so any help, even just the name of the garment, would be
        >very very much appreciated.
        >
        >Gillian Durham


        Look for "schaube".

        Mary Taran


        --
        No virus found in this outgoing message.
        Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
        Version: 7.0.296 / Virus Database: 265.6.6 - Release Date: 12/28/2004
      • Marion McNealy
        What you are looking for is not a schaube, that s a longer length garment and typically fur lined, women in Germany did wear schaubes and cloaks, but not the
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 30, 2004
          What you are looking for is not a schaube, that's a longer length garment and typically fur lined, women in Germany did wear schaubes and cloaks, but not the full circle ones like you are looking for. What I think you are looking for is a Gestaltrock, Katherine Barich defines it as a "Form coat" that could be put on or slung around the shoulders. Its a mans garment and was usually worn over a doublet and trunkhose.

          There is an extant one in the Dresden Armory museum, they don't have it labeled as a specific garment name, but from Textiler Hausrat has it labeled as a Gestaltrock.

          From the archives of the German Ren Costuming group (although it was originally posted to this list but I don't have that message bookmarked!) here is a full description and write up about the conservation of it.
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GermanRenCostume/message/3207

          Cloak laid out flathttp://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI10051a14b.jpg

          Detail of pattern on silk
          http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI10051b01b.jpg


          Here are pictures of the yellow silk cloak and outfit
          http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI10051a10b.jpg
          http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI10051a11b.jpg

          Under outfit, wams and trunkhose
          http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI10051a12b.jpg

          Detail of trunkhose
          http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI10051a13b.jpg


          -Marion, German clothing geek.
          www.curiousfrau.com

          msgilliandurham <msgilliandurham@...> wrote:




          This is a costuming question --

          I'm looking for more information on a German Renaissance garment --
          I'm blanking on the name (which is probably why I'm having problems
          finding any info ...)

          It's described in Janet Winter's Elizabethan Costuming (yes, I know,
          not the most accurate book in the world) as being a full circle
          cloak, hip length, with 2-piece sleeves. She says in England it was
          only worn by men, but in Germany it was sometimes worn by women as
          well.

          In the picture of the monkeys making ruffs, the figure 2nd? 3rd?
          from the left is wearing one.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • msgilliandurham
          ... garment and typically fur lined, women in Germany did wear schaubes and cloaks, but not the full circle ones like you are looking for. What I think you are
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 30, 2004
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Marion McNealy
            <m_mc_nealy@y...> wrote:
            > What you are looking for is not a schaube, that's a longer length
            garment and typically fur lined, women in Germany did wear schaubes
            and cloaks, but not the full circle ones like you are looking for.
            What I think you are looking for is a Gestaltrock, Katherine Barich
            defines it as a "Form coat" that could be put on or slung around the
            shoulders. Its a mans garment and was usually worn over a doublet
            and trunkhose.

            My thanks to all who responded.

            What I'm trying to do is document a very warm (hence the fur lining)
            *short* (hip length) full garment with sleeves, which could have
            been worn by a woman. It's so I can be warm and still have my arms
            and hands free to carry things, without having yet more fabric
            around my legs and feet to trip me up :-)

            The schaubes documented here (my thanks for all the links!) are
            indeed too long -- it also appears to me that they do not fasten
            down the front.

            The Gestaltrock is more what I described (it can be worn either as a
            cape over the shoulders, or as a coat with one's arms in the
            sleeves). However, the one you document here doesn't fasten in the
            front either -- it doesn't even look as if it would close completely.

            The only copy of the engraving of the "monkeys aping fashion" that I
            have (I cannot find a copy of it on the web) is a cartoon of the
            orginal engraving, which could have been changed who knows how. It
            shows a female monkey wearing what looks more like a hip-length ropa
            than anything else. I know ropas were not always floor-length (my
            own suspicion is that at least some of these were ropas designed to
            be worn either with or without a hoop -- when worn over a hoop they
            are shorter, but that's just me) but the only picture I remember
            seeing of a hip-length one is in this engraving.

            And of course, just because we don't have any documentation that a
            women wore a gestraltrock doesn't mean no woman *ever* wore one,
            just that it wasn't typical enough to be documented :-) But I'd be
            happier with documentation.

            Much thanks again --
            Gillian Durham
          • wodeford
            ... I ... Rats! I was going to ask if you could point me at an image for my medieval monkey collection! On the other hand, the British Library has a 16th
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 30, 2004
              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "msgilliandurham"
              <msgilliandurham@y...> wrote:
              > The only copy of the engraving of the "monkeys aping fashion" that
              I
              > have (I cannot find a copy of it on the web) is a cartoon of the
              > orginal engraving, which could have been changed who knows how.

              Rats! I was going to ask if you could point me at an image for my
              medieval monkey collection!

              On the other hand, the British Library has a 16th century Japanese
              picture scroll called the Saru No Soshi depicting "monkeys of
              fashion." I apologize for the appalling link below:

              http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?
              _IXDB_=compass&_IXSR_=kf1&_IXSS_=_IXFPFX_%3dgraphical%252ffull%252f%
              26_IXsearchterm%3djapanese%252520painting%26%257bUPPER%257d%
              253av2_free_text_tindex%3djapanese%2bpainting%26_IXDB_%3dcompass%
              26_IXNOMATCHES_%3dgraphical%252fno_matches%252ehtml%26%2524%2b%
              2528with%2bv2_searchable_index%2529%2bsort%3d%
              252e&_IXFIRST_=26&_IXMAXHITS_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&_IXsearchter
              m=japanese%2520painting&submit-button=summary

              Jehanne de Wodeford
            • Marion McNealy
              What geographical area and time are you portraying? Each region and time period had its own way of dealing with cold weather, staying warm and still being able
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 31, 2004
                What geographical area and time are you portraying?

                Each region and time period had its own way of dealing with cold weather, staying warm and still being able to function outside. Some folks on this list might be able to help you in your search for an appropriate garment if you can just tell us when and where you are located.

                -Marion

                msgilliandurham <msgilliandurham@...> wrote:
                What I'm trying to do is document a very warm (hence the fur lining) *short* (hip length) full garment with sleeves, which could have been worn by a woman. It's so I can be warm and still have my arms and hands free to carry things, without having yet more fabric around my legs and feet to trip me up :-)



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • msgilliandurham
                ... weather, staying warm and still being able to function outside. Some folks on this list might be able to help you in your search for an appropriate garment
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 31, 2004
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Marion McNealy
                  <m_mc_nealy@y...> wrote:
                  > What geographical area and time are you portraying?
                  >
                  > Each region and time period had its own way of dealing with cold
                  weather, staying warm and still being able to function outside. Some
                  folks on this list might be able to help you in your search for an
                  appropriate garment if you can just tell us when and where you are
                  located.
                  >
                  > -Marion

                  Thank you for the offer.

                  Gillian is early Elizabethan England (Isn't that redundant? we don't
                  usually talk about Elizabethan Italy or France <g>) but from a
                  merchant and travelling family, so anything European would do. If you
                  made me pin down a date, I'd say 1560-1570.

                  Thanks, Gillian

                  > msgilliandurham <msgilliandurham@y...> wrote:
                  > What I'm trying to do is document a very warm (hence the fur
                  lining) *short* (hip length) full garment with sleeves, which could
                  have been worn by a woman. It's so I can be warm and still have my
                  arms and hands free to carry things, without having yet more fabric
                  around my legs and feet to trip me up :-)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • borderlands15213
                  Gillian, the link below is to a Vermeer painting, and as such the jacket shown is about a century too late for documentation purposes, but is this anything
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 1, 2005
                    Gillian, the link below is to a Vermeer painting, and as such the
                    jacket shown is about a century too late for documentation purposes,
                    but is this anything like what you have in mind?
                    http://www.wga.hu/index1.html

                    Yseult

                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "msgilliandurham"
                    <msgilliandurham@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Marion McNealy
                    > <m_mc_nealy@y...> wrote:
                    > > What geographical area and time are you portraying?
                    > >
                    > > Each region and time period had its own way of dealing with cold
                    > weather, staying warm and still being able to function outside.
                    Some
                    > folks on this list might be able to help you in your search for an
                    > appropriate garment if you can just tell us when and where you are
                    > located.
                    > >
                    > > -Marion
                    >
                    > Thank you for the offer.
                    >
                    > Gillian is early Elizabethan England (Isn't that redundant? we
                    don't
                    > usually talk about Elizabethan Italy or France <g>) but from a
                    > merchant and travelling family, so anything European would do. If
                    you
                    > made me pin down a date, I'd say 1560-1570.
                    >
                    > Thanks, Gillian
                    >
                    > > msgilliandurham <msgilliandurham@y...> wrote:
                    > > What I'm trying to do is document a very warm (hence the fur
                    > lining) *short* (hip length) full garment with sleeves, which could
                    > have been worn by a woman. It's so I can be warm and still have my
                    > arms and hands free to carry things, without having yet more fabric
                    > around my legs and feet to trip me up :-)
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • hunyddthered
                    msgilliandurham wrote: (snipped) ... Do mean something like this? http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/weigel/wgl20.shtml It s not quite a cloak, but it is a full
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 3, 2005
                      "msgilliandurham" wrote:

                      (snipped)
                      > I'm looking for more information on a German Renaissance garment --
                      > It's described in Janet Winter's Elizabethan Costuming as being a
                      > full circle cloak, hip length, with 2-piece sleeves. She says in
                      > England it was only worn by men, but in Germany it was sometimes
                      > worn by women as well.

                      Do mean something like this?

                      http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/weigel/wgl20.shtml

                      It's not quite a cloak, but it is a full bodied short jacket (and is
                      sooooo cute! how could you NOT want to make one!)

                      Cheers,
                      Hunydd
                    • msgilliandurham
                      Hmm -- this is close enough to document that women wore this style -- and yes, these are not a full circle (although since the fake fur lining is napped, I m
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 4, 2005
                        Hmm -- this is close enough to document that women wore this style --
                        and yes, these are not a full circle (although since the fake fur
                        lining is napped, I'm not going to save much on fabric!) Thank you -
                        - mine will have full-length sleeves -- this appears to have
                        only "cap" sleeves, fitting over the tight sleeves of the gown.

                        FYI -- Other similar images are available at

                        http://inky.library.yale.edu/medwomen/fashion.html

                        especially

                        http://inky.library.yale.edu/medwomen/04183126.html

                        http://inky.library.yale.edu/medwomen/04183227.html

                        Thanks again,

                        Gillian Durham

                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, >
                        > "msgilliandurham" wrote:
                        >
                        > (snipped)
                        > > I'm looking for more information on a German Renaissance
                        garment --
                        > > It's described in Janet Winter's Elizabethan Costuming as being
                        a
                        > > full circle cloak, hip length, with 2-piece sleeves. She says
                        in
                        > > England it was only worn by men, but in Germany it was
                        sometimes
                        > > worn by women as well.

                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "hunyddthered"
                        <mel_elliott100@h...> wrote:
                        > Do mean something like this?
                        >
                        > http://www.marquise.de/en/1500/weigel/wgl20.shtml
                        >
                        > It's not quite a cloak, but it is a full bodied short jacket (and
                        is
                        > sooooo cute! how could you NOT want to make one!)
                        >
                        > Cheers,
                        > Hunydd
                      • msgilliandurham
                        Ha! I found it! (the picture, that is) There s a small picture of it at http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/Images/ruffapes.gif I did a Web Goodle search, instead
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 29, 2005
                          Ha! I found it! (the picture, that is)

                          There's a small picture of it at

                          http://www.thrednedlestrete.com/Images/ruffapes.gif

                          I did a Web Goodle search, instead of an image Google search,
                          and found it mentioned in an archive at sca.uwaterloo.ca, apparently
                          of the H-COST listserv. (specifically
                          http://sca.uwaterloo.ca/~fashion/archives/hcos98/98-06.mbx.cl)

                          Here a "joan m jurancich" says

                          "On page 228 of "QE's Wardrobe Unlock'd", there's a wonderful
                          engraving of "Monkeys 'apeing' the fashion, starching and setting
                          linen ruffs, using setting sticks. Engraving, c. 1570. British
                          Museum, London."[that's the caption in the book, don't blame me!]"

                          And a little farther down in the archive, a "Joycelyn Falsken" says

                          "Yes, the cartoon is of monkeys dressed in Elizabethan garb
                          laundering, starching and pressing neck ruffs. The caption under the
                          picture states: "Crispin Van de Passe I (after Van der
                          Borcht), "Starch House" engraving. By permission of the trustees of
                          the British Museum." dated 1570. [...] It's in a book
                          called, "Fashioning Femininity" by Karen Newman and addresses
                          amongst other topics, "Dressing Up: Sartorial Extravagance in Early
                          Modern London".

                          Couldn't get anything off the British Museum website, sadly. I'm
                          trying to track down the "Fashioning Femininity" book.

                          My memory of it in "Unlock'd" (I *knew* I'd seen it somewhere besides
                          the cartoon I had in hand!!) is that it a small image as well.

                          <sigh>

                          Gillian [who is really going to have to get across the pond one of
                          these days] Durham

                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > Rats! I was going to ask if you could point me at an image for my
                          > medieval monkey collection!
                        • wodeford
                          ... Thanks! The British Museum also owns the Saru no Soshi featuring fashionable 16th century Japanese monkeys. The entire handscroll can be seen at:
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 30, 2005
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