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Re: Middle Eastern Venetian

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  • matchstc
    Grazie! Exactly what I was looking for considering my COMPLETE Ignorance of the idea. Now i can go educate myself! ( i tried to get others to do it,, they
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 27, 2004
      Grazie!

      Exactly what I was looking for considering my COMPLETE Ignorance of
      the idea.

      Now i can go educate myself! ( i tried to get others to do it,, they
      gave itup as a lost cause :)


      Again thanks
      mighel


      -- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@e... wrote:
      > mighel wrote:
      > >uuhhh unfortunately I passed "boy" state a looonngg time ago. Even
      > >now I drss way too "young" for my actual age. I wear young mans
      > >Venetian clothing more fitting for someone 20 years old.But as a non
      > >Cittadini I don't have to worry as much about the Sumptuary laws.
      > >Actual age is 42 btw
      >
      > OK, you wrote "a good Venetian boy" in your first message and i just
      > wanted to make things clear. You could be a young woman who wants to
      > dress like a male, you could be actually dressing a boy, or, as you
      > did, you could be using the term "loosely".
      >
      > > AS to 'all that white" a lot of what i've seen have been white
      > >pajamas basically
      >
      > Where? This is something i haven't seen at all in Medieval Near and
      > Middle Eastern art. Color tends to be strong. Some of the Spanish
      > Muslim and North African Muslim men represented in The Books of Games
      > of King Alfonso X, called The Wise, of Spain, dated circa 1283 do
      > wear white, but they definitely aren't wearing anything that looks
      > like pajamas. Other than that, white is not at all common in
      > Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Persian, Ottoman, or Central Asian art for
      > outer garments and typical for undergarments since those were made of
      > linen and cotton, both of which were rarely dyed - and white was the
      > color the Qur'an specifies for undergarments.
      >
      > > hmmm as to locale my intent is for Hot Missouri summer garb afew
      > >authenticity steps above baggy pants with horrid patterns(less it was
      > >a good damask pattern)
      >
      > Well, one of the hobby horses i ride out often is: No Poofy Pants,
      > i.e., the "harem pants" style common among dancers is not SCA-period
      > for anyone in the Near and Middle East. So don't even think about
      > them :-)
      >
      > There were, more or less, two styles of pants, depending on whether
      > the wearers use the Arab clothing system or the Central Asian
      > clothing system. (yes, there are regional and temporal variations -
      > but i'm simplifying a bit here)
      >
      > Arab style sirwal tend to be a bit like pajama bottoms, i.e., the
      > legs go straight down and are the same width from top to bottom, with
      > a crotch gusset for fit and comfort.
      >
      > Central Asian style shalvar have legs that taper, wide at the top and
      > quite narrow at the ankle, with crotch-upper leg gussets for fit and
      > comfort.
      >
      > Both are held in place by a draw string in the waist band and are
      > simple to make.
      >
      > Underwear in both systems is white - but, so is most men's underwear
      > in the 20th century, and, as far as i can tell, the beginning of the
      > 21st.
      >
      > In the Arab system there is another man's underwear called tubban,
      > and they look kind of like the underpants worn by Renaissance period
      > European men, i.e., kinda like mid-thigh length boxers. They would
      > generally have been linen, but cotton is also a possibility, and,
      > yes, they would be white.
      >
      > The Ottomans, as far as i can tell, both men and women, but i am not
      > 100 per cent certain, wore chakshir (written caksir, with a cedilla
      > under the "c" and the "s") under their shalvar. Chakshir were often
      > of a special fabric which combined silk and cotton, alternating
      > opaque and sheer stripes. These, too, were white.
      >
      > And from personal experience, i'll add that it's really a good idea
      > to wear cotton or linen under silk sirwal or shalvar.
      >
      > > AS to location you mention several and it sounds like you know your
      > >stuff. I was thinking more towards Cyprus, Constaninople and the
      > >northern mediterranen but i'm open to suggestion. I know Venice did a
      > >lot of trade with Egypt.
      >
      > But a lot more with the Ottomans. So chances are you are looking for
      > Ottoman-style clothing which is Central Asian style - since that is
      > where Turkic people came from.
      >
      > >Maybe a few books (with lots of picturesz!) to get me started? So far
      > >this is just a germ of a project (shheessshhh thats what i said when
      > >papermaking reared its ugly head and boy did that take off!)
      >
      > To be honest, clothing in the Arab system is easier to make and more
      > comfortable to wear than the Central Asian system at SCA camping
      > events and in heat. Other than the sarawil (plural of sirwal), the
      > tunics, which pull on over the head, are loose and as baggy as you
      > like, so there is plenty of air circulation, no binding to cause
      > chafing (other than the waistband on the sirwal).
      >
      > Central Asian garments are open in the front. So, first, you need to
      > line them, which is what they did - or at the very least face the
      > neck and front edges (which is a cheat, but a bit less work and will
      > make the garment less hot). Then you need to sew on buttons and make
      > buttonholes or button loops so you can fasten them.
      >
      > There are two books i would recommend for starters for Ottoman.
      >
      > First is variously listed - since the spine and cover say "Topkapi
      > Textiles" while the front fly and title page say "Topkapi Saray
      > Museum: Costumes, Embroideries and other Textiles" - written by Hulye
      > Tezcan & Selma Delibas, translated, expanded, and edited by
      > J.M.Rogers, published by the NYGS (New York Graphic Society), 1989.
      > It is "nothing" but color photos of actual garments and text
      > describing them.
      >
      > The second is "The Suleymannameh", which is a book painted for
      > Suleyman, called by Europeans The Magnificent, from the mid-16th
      > century. A published version is "Suleymanname: The Illustrated
      > History of Suleyman the Magnificent", written by Esin Atil, published
      > by the National Gallery of Art/Abrams, 1986.
      >
      > Alas, the Suleymannameh has NO pictures of Ottoman Muslim women, and
      > only a very few of Ottoman Christian women, so it is of limited use
      > for costuming women.
      >
      > You should be able to find these in a good library. If your local
      > library doesn't have them, ask about Inter-Library Loan (ILL). There
      > may be a small charge, but it will be worth it.
      >
      > Additionally, Janet Arnold graphed a pattern for an Ottoman Sultan's
      > kaftan in her essay titled:
      > "The Pattern of a Caftan, Said to Have Been worn by Selim II
      > (1512-20), from the Topkapi Sarayi Museum (Accession Number 2/4415),
      > On Display at the Exhibition of Turkish Art of the Seljuk and Ottoman
      > Periods, at the Victoria and Albert Museum, November 1967"
      > This was published in _Costume_ 1970 (Nos. 1 & 2), pp. 63-66, V&A
      > Museum, London England.
      >
      > This is sometimes difficult to find in card catalogs - it is often
      > listed as "Costume, Journal of the Costume Society" (There's more
      > than one journal called Costume, and more than one Costume Society -
      > that's why i'm giving all this detail)
      >
      > There are Persian patterns by Master Rashid on my website (see
      > below). The shalvar pattern is actually based on surviving Ottoman
      > shalvar. The "coats" are similar, although not identical, to the
      > Ottoman. But there aren't too many patterns out there, so this is a
      > good place to start.
      >
      > And for more on Persian, the website of Baroness/Mistress Roxane Farabi:
      > http://www.roxanefarabi.com
      >
      > And there's a SCAdian's website, formerly "Vert et Sable", now "The
      > Renaissance Tailor", that has some information on modern Central
      > Asian garments that might be useful.
      > http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_main.htm
      > Scroll down to a section titled "Accessories: Eastern European" and
      > check out Pants and Coats.
      >
      > There's another source of info, but right now the graphics are not
      > showing up - i don't know if the site they're housed on is down, or
      > gone, or moved, or what... i'm writing the author and see what he
      > knows... I'll post when i hear from him...
      >
      > And ask for more information and i'll do my best to provide it.
      >
      > Anahita
      > --
      >
      > Ride your camel to Dar Anahita
      > http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
      > Information on SCA period Near and Middle Eastern Costuming,
      > Medieval Muslim Egyptian knitting, and complete menus and
      > period recipes from seven SCA feasts - from German to Persian
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