Re: Middle Eastern Venetian
Exactly what I was looking for considering my COMPLETE Ignorance of
Now i can go educate myself! ( i tried to get others to do it,, they
gave itup as a lost cause :)
-- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@e... wrote:
> mighel wrote:
> >uuhhh unfortunately I passed "boy" state a looonngg time ago. Even
> >now I drss way too "young" for my actual age. I wear young mans
> >Venetian clothing more fitting for someone 20 years old.But as a non
> >Cittadini I don't have to worry as much about the Sumptuary laws.
> >Actual age is 42 btw
> OK, you wrote "a good Venetian boy" in your first message and i just
> wanted to make things clear. You could be a young woman who wants to
> dress like a male, you could be actually dressing a boy, or, as you
> did, you could be using the term "loosely".
> > AS to 'all that white" a lot of what i've seen have been white
> >pajamas basically
> Where? This is something i haven't seen at all in Medieval Near and
> Middle Eastern art. Color tends to be strong. Some of the Spanish
> Muslim and North African Muslim men represented in The Books of Games
> of King Alfonso X, called The Wise, of Spain, dated circa 1283 do
> wear white, but they definitely aren't wearing anything that looks
> like pajamas. Other than that, white is not at all common in
> Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Persian, Ottoman, or Central Asian art for
> outer garments and typical for undergarments since those were made of
> linen and cotton, both of which were rarely dyed - and white was the
> color the Qur'an specifies for undergarments.
> > hmmm as to locale my intent is for Hot Missouri summer garb afew
> >authenticity steps above baggy pants with horrid patterns(less it was
> >a good damask pattern)
> Well, one of the hobby horses i ride out often is: No Poofy Pants,
> i.e., the "harem pants" style common among dancers is not SCA-period
> for anyone in the Near and Middle East. So don't even think about
> them :-)
> There were, more or less, two styles of pants, depending on whether
> the wearers use the Arab clothing system or the Central Asian
> clothing system. (yes, there are regional and temporal variations -
> but i'm simplifying a bit here)
> Arab style sirwal tend to be a bit like pajama bottoms, i.e., the
> legs go straight down and are the same width from top to bottom, with
> a crotch gusset for fit and comfort.
> Central Asian style shalvar have legs that taper, wide at the top and
> quite narrow at the ankle, with crotch-upper leg gussets for fit and
> Both are held in place by a draw string in the waist band and are
> simple to make.
> Underwear in both systems is white - but, so is most men's underwear
> in the 20th century, and, as far as i can tell, the beginning of the
> In the Arab system there is another man's underwear called tubban,
> and they look kind of like the underpants worn by Renaissance period
> European men, i.e., kinda like mid-thigh length boxers. They would
> generally have been linen, but cotton is also a possibility, and,
> yes, they would be white.
> The Ottomans, as far as i can tell, both men and women, but i am not
> 100 per cent certain, wore chakshir (written caksir, with a cedilla
> under the "c" and the "s") under their shalvar. Chakshir were often
> of a special fabric which combined silk and cotton, alternating
> opaque and sheer stripes. These, too, were white.
> And from personal experience, i'll add that it's really a good idea
> to wear cotton or linen under silk sirwal or shalvar.
> > AS to location you mention several and it sounds like you know your
> >stuff. I was thinking more towards Cyprus, Constaninople and the
> >northern mediterranen but i'm open to suggestion. I know Venice did a
> >lot of trade with Egypt.
> But a lot more with the Ottomans. So chances are you are looking for
> Ottoman-style clothing which is Central Asian style - since that is
> where Turkic people came from.
> >Maybe a few books (with lots of picturesz!) to get me started? So far
> >this is just a germ of a project (shheessshhh thats what i said when
> >papermaking reared its ugly head and boy did that take off!)
> To be honest, clothing in the Arab system is easier to make and more
> comfortable to wear than the Central Asian system at SCA camping
> events and in heat. Other than the sarawil (plural of sirwal), the
> tunics, which pull on over the head, are loose and as baggy as you
> like, so there is plenty of air circulation, no binding to cause
> chafing (other than the waistband on the sirwal).
> Central Asian garments are open in the front. So, first, you need to
> line them, which is what they did - or at the very least face the
> neck and front edges (which is a cheat, but a bit less work and will
> make the garment less hot). Then you need to sew on buttons and make
> buttonholes or button loops so you can fasten them.
> There are two books i would recommend for starters for Ottoman.
> First is variously listed - since the spine and cover say "Topkapi
> Textiles" while the front fly and title page say "Topkapi Saray
> Museum: Costumes, Embroideries and other Textiles" - written by Hulye
> Tezcan & Selma Delibas, translated, expanded, and edited by
> J.M.Rogers, published by the NYGS (New York Graphic Society), 1989.
> It is "nothing" but color photos of actual garments and text
> describing them.
> The second is "The Suleymannameh", which is a book painted for
> Suleyman, called by Europeans The Magnificent, from the mid-16th
> century. A published version is "Suleymanname: The Illustrated
> History of Suleyman the Magnificent", written by Esin Atil, published
> by the National Gallery of Art/Abrams, 1986.
> Alas, the Suleymannameh has NO pictures of Ottoman Muslim women, and
> only a very few of Ottoman Christian women, so it is of limited use
> for costuming women.
> You should be able to find these in a good library. If your local
> library doesn't have them, ask about Inter-Library Loan (ILL). There
> may be a small charge, but it will be worth it.
> Additionally, Janet Arnold graphed a pattern for an Ottoman Sultan's
> kaftan in her essay titled:
> "The Pattern of a Caftan, Said to Have Been worn by Selim II
> (1512-20), from the Topkapi Sarayi Museum (Accession Number 2/4415),
> On Display at the Exhibition of Turkish Art of the Seljuk and Ottoman
> Periods, at the Victoria and Albert Museum, November 1967"
> This was published in _Costume_ 1970 (Nos. 1 & 2), pp. 63-66, V&A
> Museum, London England.
> This is sometimes difficult to find in card catalogs - it is often
> listed as "Costume, Journal of the Costume Society" (There's more
> than one journal called Costume, and more than one Costume Society -
> that's why i'm giving all this detail)
> There are Persian patterns by Master Rashid on my website (see
> below). The shalvar pattern is actually based on surviving Ottoman
> shalvar. The "coats" are similar, although not identical, to the
> Ottoman. But there aren't too many patterns out there, so this is a
> good place to start.
> And for more on Persian, the website of Baroness/Mistress Roxane Farabi:
> And there's a SCAdian's website, formerly "Vert et Sable", now "The
> Renaissance Tailor", that has some information on modern Central
> Asian garments that might be useful.
> Scroll down to a section titled "Accessories: Eastern European" and
> check out Pants and Coats.
> There's another source of info, but right now the graphics are not
> showing up - i don't know if the site they're housed on is down, or
> gone, or moved, or what... i'm writing the author and see what he
> knows... I'll post when i hear from him...
> And ask for more information and i'll do my best to provide it.
> Ride your camel to Dar Anahita
> Information on SCA period Near and Middle Eastern Costuming,
> Medieval Muslim Egyptian knitting, and complete menus and
> period recipes from seven SCA feasts - from German to Persian