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Middle Eastern Venetian

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  • matchstc
    Hi folks I come to you with a question.I m looking for information on clothing that might have been worn by a good Venetian boy circa 1500 or so that was
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 25, 2004
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      Hi folks

      I come to you with a question.I'm looking for information on
      clothing that might have been worn by a good Venetian boy circa 1500
      or so that was posted in the Middle East (say Constantinople or
      such)I'm sure they went "native" to some degree, just maybe with a bit
      more panache. (All that white is SO drab ya know)

      Any suggestions where to look? (I want some summer clothes)

      cya
      mighel
    • lilinah@earthlink.net
      ... First, by boy do you really mean an adult male or are you actually dressing a child? Second, what do you mean by all that white ? Third, from what i can
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 26, 2004
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        mighel wrote:
        >I come to you with a question. I'm looking for information on
        >clothing that might have been worn by a good Venetian boy circa 1500
        >or so that was posted in the Middle East (say Constantinople or
        >such) I'm sure they went "native" to some degree, just maybe with a bit
        >more panache. (All that white is SO drab ya know)
        >
        > Any suggestions where to look? (I want some summer clothes)

        First, by "boy" do you really mean an adult male or are you actually
        dressing a child?

        Second, what do you mean by "all that white"?

        Third, from what i can tell, a few Europeans "went native" - in which
        case they basically gave up their European-ness and fully joined
        whoever.

        Since you are specific about time but not about place, it's hard to
        say what you'd wear. The Ottomans had one style of dressing, the
        Mamluk rulers of Egypt and the Levant another, while the indigenous
        people of Egypt and of the Levant wore a completely different style
        of clothing from the Mamluks, the Persians wore yet a different style.

        There was a palace eunuch in the Topkapi Serai who had been English -
        but i doubt you want to be a eunuch...

        It was somewhat fashionable for Italians to wear a few garments
        adapted from Ottoman, but as far as i can tell, this was back in
        Italy.

        So, more information, please.

        Anahita
      • matchstc
        uuhhh unfortunately I passed boy state a looonngg time ago. Even now I drss way too young for my actual age. I wear young mans Venetian clothing more
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 26, 2004
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          uuhhh unfortunately I passed "boy" state a looonngg time ago. Even
          now I drss way too "young" for my actual age. I wear young mans
          Venetian clothing more fitting for someone 20 years old.But as a non
          Cittadini I don't have to worry as much about the Sumptuary laws.
          Actual age is 42 btw

          AS to 'all that white" a lot of what i've seen have been white
          pajamas basically

          hmmm as to locale my intent is for Hot Missouri summer garb afew
          authenticity steps above baggy pants with horrid patterns(less it was
          a good damask pattern)

          AS to location you mention several and it sounds like you know your
          stuff. I was thinking more towards Cyprus, Constaninople and the
          northern mediterranen but i'm open to suggestion. I know Venice did a
          lot of trade with Egypt.

          Maybe a few books (with lots of picturesz!) to get me started? So far
          this is just a germ of a project (shheessshhh thats what i said when
          papermaking reared its ugly head and boy did that take off!)

          cya
          mighel


          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@e... wrote:
          > mighel wrote:
          > >I come to you with a question. I'm looking for information on
          > >clothing that might have been worn by a good Venetian boy circa 1500
          > >or so that was posted in the Middle East (say Constantinople or
          > >such) I'm sure they went "native" to some degree, just maybe with a bit
          > >more panache. (All that white is SO drab ya know)
          > >
          > > Any suggestions where to look? (I want some summer clothes)
          >
          > First, by "boy" do you really mean an adult male or are you actually
          > dressing a child?
          >
          > Second, what do you mean by "all that white"?
          >
          > Third, from what i can tell, a few Europeans "went native" - in which
          > case they basically gave up their European-ness and fully joined
          > whoever.
          >
          > Since you are specific about time but not about place, it's hard to
          > say what you'd wear. The Ottomans had one style of dressing, the
          > Mamluk rulers of Egypt and the Levant another, while the indigenous
          > people of Egypt and of the Levant wore a completely different style
          > of clothing from the Mamluks, the Persians wore yet a different style.
          >
          > There was a palace eunuch in the Topkapi Serai who had been English -
          > but i doubt you want to be a eunuch...
          >
          > It was somewhat fashionable for Italians to wear a few garments
          > adapted from Ottoman, but as far as i can tell, this was back in
          > Italy.
          >
          > So, more information, please.
          >
          > Anahita
        • lilinah@earthlink.net
          ... OK, you wrote a good Venetian boy in your first message and i just wanted to make things clear. You could be a young woman who wants to dress like a
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 27, 2004
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            mighel wrote:
            >uuhhh unfortunately I passed "boy" state a looonngg time ago. Even
            >now I drss way too "young" for my actual age. I wear young mans
            >Venetian clothing more fitting for someone 20 years old.But as a non
            >Cittadini I don't have to worry as much about the Sumptuary laws.
            >Actual age is 42 btw

            OK, you wrote "a good Venetian boy" in your first message and i just
            wanted to make things clear. You could be a young woman who wants to
            dress like a male, you could be actually dressing a boy, or, as you
            did, you could be using the term "loosely".

            > AS to 'all that white" a lot of what i've seen have been white
            >pajamas basically

            Where? This is something i haven't seen at all in Medieval Near and
            Middle Eastern art. Color tends to be strong. Some of the Spanish
            Muslim and North African Muslim men represented in The Books of Games
            of King Alfonso X, called The Wise, of Spain, dated circa 1283 do
            wear white, but they definitely aren't wearing anything that looks
            like pajamas. Other than that, white is not at all common in
            Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Persian, Ottoman, or Central Asian art for
            outer garments and typical for undergarments since those were made of
            linen and cotton, both of which were rarely dyed - and white was the
            color the Qur'an specifies for undergarments.

            > hmmm as to locale my intent is for Hot Missouri summer garb afew
            >authenticity steps above baggy pants with horrid patterns(less it was
            >a good damask pattern)

            Well, one of the hobby horses i ride out often is: No Poofy Pants,
            i.e., the "harem pants" style common among dancers is not SCA-period
            for anyone in the Near and Middle East. So don't even think about
            them :-)

            There were, more or less, two styles of pants, depending on whether
            the wearers use the Arab clothing system or the Central Asian
            clothing system. (yes, there are regional and temporal variations -
            but i'm simplifying a bit here)

            Arab style sirwal tend to be a bit like pajama bottoms, i.e., the
            legs go straight down and are the same width from top to bottom, with
            a crotch gusset for fit and comfort.

            Central Asian style shalvar have legs that taper, wide at the top and
            quite narrow at the ankle, with crotch-upper leg gussets for fit and
            comfort.

            Both are held in place by a draw string in the waist band and are
            simple to make.

            Underwear in both systems is white - but, so is most men's underwear
            in the 20th century, and, as far as i can tell, the beginning of the
            21st.

            In the Arab system there is another man's underwear called tubban,
            and they look kind of like the underpants worn by Renaissance period
            European men, i.e., kinda like mid-thigh length boxers. They would
            generally have been linen, but cotton is also a possibility, and,
            yes, they would be white.

            The Ottomans, as far as i can tell, both men and women, but i am not
            100 per cent certain, wore chakshir (written caksir, with a cedilla
            under the "c" and the "s") under their shalvar. Chakshir were often
            of a special fabric which combined silk and cotton, alternating
            opaque and sheer stripes. These, too, were white.

            And from personal experience, i'll add that it's really a good idea
            to wear cotton or linen under silk sirwal or shalvar.

            > AS to location you mention several and it sounds like you know your
            >stuff. I was thinking more towards Cyprus, Constaninople and the
            >northern mediterranen but i'm open to suggestion. I know Venice did a
            >lot of trade with Egypt.

            But a lot more with the Ottomans. So chances are you are looking for
            Ottoman-style clothing which is Central Asian style - since that is
            where Turkic people came from.

            >Maybe a few books (with lots of picturesz!) to get me started? So far
            >this is just a germ of a project (shheessshhh thats what i said when
            >papermaking reared its ugly head and boy did that take off!)

            To be honest, clothing in the Arab system is easier to make and more
            comfortable to wear than the Central Asian system at SCA camping
            events and in heat. Other than the sarawil (plural of sirwal), the
            tunics, which pull on over the head, are loose and as baggy as you
            like, so there is plenty of air circulation, no binding to cause
            chafing (other than the waistband on the sirwal).

            Central Asian garments are open in the front. So, first, you need to
            line them, which is what they did - or at the very least face the
            neck and front edges (which is a cheat, but a bit less work and will
            make the garment less hot). Then you need to sew on buttons and make
            buttonholes or button loops so you can fasten them.

            There are two books i would recommend for starters for Ottoman.

            First is variously listed - since the spine and cover say "Topkapi
            Textiles" while the front fly and title page say "Topkapi Saray
            Museum: Costumes, Embroideries and other Textiles" - written by Hulye
            Tezcan & Selma Delibas, translated, expanded, and edited by
            J.M.Rogers, published by the NYGS (New York Graphic Society), 1989.
            It is "nothing" but color photos of actual garments and text
            describing them.

            The second is "The Suleymannameh", which is a book painted for
            Suleyman, called by Europeans The Magnificent, from the mid-16th
            century. A published version is "Suleymanname: The Illustrated
            History of Suleyman the Magnificent", written by Esin Atil, published
            by the National Gallery of Art/Abrams, 1986.

            Alas, the Suleymannameh has NO pictures of Ottoman Muslim women, and
            only a very few of Ottoman Christian women, so it is of limited use
            for costuming women.

            You should be able to find these in a good library. If your local
            library doesn't have them, ask about Inter-Library Loan (ILL). There
            may be a small charge, but it will be worth it.

            Additionally, Janet Arnold graphed a pattern for an Ottoman Sultan's
            kaftan in her essay titled:
            "The Pattern of a Caftan, Said to Have Been worn by Selim II
            (1512-20), from the Topkapi Sarayi Museum (Accession Number 2/4415),
            On Display at the Exhibition of Turkish Art of the Seljuk and Ottoman
            Periods, at the Victoria and Albert Museum, November 1967"
            This was published in _Costume_ 1970 (Nos. 1 & 2), pp. 63-66, V&A
            Museum, London England.

            This is sometimes difficult to find in card catalogs - it is often
            listed as "Costume, Journal of the Costume Society" (There's more
            than one journal called Costume, and more than one Costume Society -
            that's why i'm giving all this detail)

            There are Persian patterns by Master Rashid on my website (see
            below). The shalvar pattern is actually based on surviving Ottoman
            shalvar. The "coats" are similar, although not identical, to the
            Ottoman. But there aren't too many patterns out there, so this is a
            good place to start.

            And for more on Persian, the website of Baroness/Mistress Roxane Farabi:
            http://www.roxanefarabi.com

            And there's a SCAdian's website, formerly "Vert et Sable", now "The
            Renaissance Tailor", that has some information on modern Central
            Asian garments that might be useful.
            http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_main.htm
            Scroll down to a section titled "Accessories: Eastern European" and
            check out Pants and Coats.

            There's another source of info, but right now the graphics are not
            showing up - i don't know if the site they're housed on is down, or
            gone, or moved, or what... i'm writing the author and see what he
            knows... I'll post when i hear from him...

            And ask for more information and i'll do my best to provide it.

            Anahita
            --

            Ride your camel to Dar Anahita
            http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
            Information on SCA period Near and Middle Eastern Costuming,
            Medieval Muslim Egyptian knitting, and complete menus and
            period recipes from seven SCA feasts - from German to Persian
          • matchstc
            Grazie! Exactly what I was looking for considering my COMPLETE Ignorance of the idea. Now i can go educate myself! ( i tried to get others to do it,, they
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 27, 2004
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              Grazie!

              Exactly what I was looking for considering my COMPLETE Ignorance of
              the idea.

              Now i can go educate myself! ( i tried to get others to do it,, they
              gave itup as a lost cause :)


              Again thanks
              mighel


              -- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@e... wrote:
              > mighel wrote:
              > >uuhhh unfortunately I passed "boy" state a looonngg time ago. Even
              > >now I drss way too "young" for my actual age. I wear young mans
              > >Venetian clothing more fitting for someone 20 years old.But as a non
              > >Cittadini I don't have to worry as much about the Sumptuary laws.
              > >Actual age is 42 btw
              >
              > OK, you wrote "a good Venetian boy" in your first message and i just
              > wanted to make things clear. You could be a young woman who wants to
              > dress like a male, you could be actually dressing a boy, or, as you
              > did, you could be using the term "loosely".
              >
              > > AS to 'all that white" a lot of what i've seen have been white
              > >pajamas basically
              >
              > Where? This is something i haven't seen at all in Medieval Near and
              > Middle Eastern art. Color tends to be strong. Some of the Spanish
              > Muslim and North African Muslim men represented in The Books of Games
              > of King Alfonso X, called The Wise, of Spain, dated circa 1283 do
              > wear white, but they definitely aren't wearing anything that looks
              > like pajamas. Other than that, white is not at all common in
              > Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi, Persian, Ottoman, or Central Asian art for
              > outer garments and typical for undergarments since those were made of
              > linen and cotton, both of which were rarely dyed - and white was the
              > color the Qur'an specifies for undergarments.
              >
              > > hmmm as to locale my intent is for Hot Missouri summer garb afew
              > >authenticity steps above baggy pants with horrid patterns(less it was
              > >a good damask pattern)
              >
              > Well, one of the hobby horses i ride out often is: No Poofy Pants,
              > i.e., the "harem pants" style common among dancers is not SCA-period
              > for anyone in the Near and Middle East. So don't even think about
              > them :-)
              >
              > There were, more or less, two styles of pants, depending on whether
              > the wearers use the Arab clothing system or the Central Asian
              > clothing system. (yes, there are regional and temporal variations -
              > but i'm simplifying a bit here)
              >
              > Arab style sirwal tend to be a bit like pajama bottoms, i.e., the
              > legs go straight down and are the same width from top to bottom, with
              > a crotch gusset for fit and comfort.
              >
              > Central Asian style shalvar have legs that taper, wide at the top and
              > quite narrow at the ankle, with crotch-upper leg gussets for fit and
              > comfort.
              >
              > Both are held in place by a draw string in the waist band and are
              > simple to make.
              >
              > Underwear in both systems is white - but, so is most men's underwear
              > in the 20th century, and, as far as i can tell, the beginning of the
              > 21st.
              >
              > In the Arab system there is another man's underwear called tubban,
              > and they look kind of like the underpants worn by Renaissance period
              > European men, i.e., kinda like mid-thigh length boxers. They would
              > generally have been linen, but cotton is also a possibility, and,
              > yes, they would be white.
              >
              > The Ottomans, as far as i can tell, both men and women, but i am not
              > 100 per cent certain, wore chakshir (written caksir, with a cedilla
              > under the "c" and the "s") under their shalvar. Chakshir were often
              > of a special fabric which combined silk and cotton, alternating
              > opaque and sheer stripes. These, too, were white.
              >
              > And from personal experience, i'll add that it's really a good idea
              > to wear cotton or linen under silk sirwal or shalvar.
              >
              > > AS to location you mention several and it sounds like you know your
              > >stuff. I was thinking more towards Cyprus, Constaninople and the
              > >northern mediterranen but i'm open to suggestion. I know Venice did a
              > >lot of trade with Egypt.
              >
              > But a lot more with the Ottomans. So chances are you are looking for
              > Ottoman-style clothing which is Central Asian style - since that is
              > where Turkic people came from.
              >
              > >Maybe a few books (with lots of picturesz!) to get me started? So far
              > >this is just a germ of a project (shheessshhh thats what i said when
              > >papermaking reared its ugly head and boy did that take off!)
              >
              > To be honest, clothing in the Arab system is easier to make and more
              > comfortable to wear than the Central Asian system at SCA camping
              > events and in heat. Other than the sarawil (plural of sirwal), the
              > tunics, which pull on over the head, are loose and as baggy as you
              > like, so there is plenty of air circulation, no binding to cause
              > chafing (other than the waistband on the sirwal).
              >
              > Central Asian garments are open in the front. So, first, you need to
              > line them, which is what they did - or at the very least face the
              > neck and front edges (which is a cheat, but a bit less work and will
              > make the garment less hot). Then you need to sew on buttons and make
              > buttonholes or button loops so you can fasten them.
              >
              > There are two books i would recommend for starters for Ottoman.
              >
              > First is variously listed - since the spine and cover say "Topkapi
              > Textiles" while the front fly and title page say "Topkapi Saray
              > Museum: Costumes, Embroideries and other Textiles" - written by Hulye
              > Tezcan & Selma Delibas, translated, expanded, and edited by
              > J.M.Rogers, published by the NYGS (New York Graphic Society), 1989.
              > It is "nothing" but color photos of actual garments and text
              > describing them.
              >
              > The second is "The Suleymannameh", which is a book painted for
              > Suleyman, called by Europeans The Magnificent, from the mid-16th
              > century. A published version is "Suleymanname: The Illustrated
              > History of Suleyman the Magnificent", written by Esin Atil, published
              > by the National Gallery of Art/Abrams, 1986.
              >
              > Alas, the Suleymannameh has NO pictures of Ottoman Muslim women, and
              > only a very few of Ottoman Christian women, so it is of limited use
              > for costuming women.
              >
              > You should be able to find these in a good library. If your local
              > library doesn't have them, ask about Inter-Library Loan (ILL). There
              > may be a small charge, but it will be worth it.
              >
              > Additionally, Janet Arnold graphed a pattern for an Ottoman Sultan's
              > kaftan in her essay titled:
              > "The Pattern of a Caftan, Said to Have Been worn by Selim II
              > (1512-20), from the Topkapi Sarayi Museum (Accession Number 2/4415),
              > On Display at the Exhibition of Turkish Art of the Seljuk and Ottoman
              > Periods, at the Victoria and Albert Museum, November 1967"
              > This was published in _Costume_ 1970 (Nos. 1 & 2), pp. 63-66, V&A
              > Museum, London England.
              >
              > This is sometimes difficult to find in card catalogs - it is often
              > listed as "Costume, Journal of the Costume Society" (There's more
              > than one journal called Costume, and more than one Costume Society -
              > that's why i'm giving all this detail)
              >
              > There are Persian patterns by Master Rashid on my website (see
              > below). The shalvar pattern is actually based on surviving Ottoman
              > shalvar. The "coats" are similar, although not identical, to the
              > Ottoman. But there aren't too many patterns out there, so this is a
              > good place to start.
              >
              > And for more on Persian, the website of Baroness/Mistress Roxane Farabi:
              > http://www.roxanefarabi.com
              >
              > And there's a SCAdian's website, formerly "Vert et Sable", now "The
              > Renaissance Tailor", that has some information on modern Central
              > Asian garments that might be useful.
              > http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_main.htm
              > Scroll down to a section titled "Accessories: Eastern European" and
              > check out Pants and Coats.
              >
              > There's another source of info, but right now the graphics are not
              > showing up - i don't know if the site they're housed on is down, or
              > gone, or moved, or what... i'm writing the author and see what he
              > knows... I'll post when i hear from him...
              >
              > And ask for more information and i'll do my best to provide it.
              >
              > Anahita
              > --
              >
              > Ride your camel to Dar Anahita
              > http://home.earthlink.net/~lilinah
              > Information on SCA period Near and Middle Eastern Costuming,
              > Medieval Muslim Egyptian knitting, and complete menus and
              > period recipes from seven SCA feasts - from German to Persian
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