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more on breastbinding

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  • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
    Who (and more particularly when) was Gilbert of Hoyt? In Sermones in Canticum Solomonis , he writes: The breasts are most pleasing when they are of moderate
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 4 6:43 AM
      Who (and more particularly when) was Gilbert of Hoyt?
      In "Sermones in Canticum Solomonis", he writes:

      "The breasts are most pleasing when they are of
      moderate size and eminence...They should be bound but
      not flattened, restrained with gentleness but not
      given too much license."

      That gives us, I believe, three textual references and
      one pre-medieval picture?

      Andrea/Gwervyl



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    • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
      ... Gilbert of Hoyland, d 1172 was writing sermons about breasts, I wonder if this is the same person. Certainly breast binding as a fashion seems to be a
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 8 5:49 PM
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
        <huwydd@y...> wrote:
        > Who (and more particularly when) was Gilbert of Hoyt?
        > In "Sermones in Canticum Solomonis", he writes:

        Gilbert of Hoyland, d 1172 was writing sermons about breasts, I wonder
        if this is the same person. Certainly breast binding as a fashion
        seems to be a phenomenon of this period (due to closer fitting
        clothing for nobles).

        The sermons you speak of, did you find an online copy? Or a
        particularly well written modern translation?

        Teffania
      • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
        ... It appears so, since I doubt two Gilberts with similar surnames were both writing sermons on the Song of Songs. Certainly breast ... Hmmm....have you found
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 9 1:14 PM
          --- Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
          <tbro3@...> wrote:


          >
          > Gilbert of Hoyland, d 1172 was writing sermons about
          > breasts, I wonder
          > if this is the same person.

          It appears so, since I doubt two Gilberts with similar
          surnames were both writing sermons on the Song of
          Songs.


          Certainly breast
          > binding as a fashion
          > seems to be a phenomenon of this period (due to
          > closer fitting
          > clothing for nobles).

          Hmmm....have you found anything suggesting that
          breastbinding was a novel or unaccustomed fashion, or
          is it just that we find definite evidence in this time
          period? I tend to believe, putting Gilbert's
          references together with the 8th cent Lombardic
          reference, breast binding was common throughout the
          medieval period - certainly Lombardic fashions were
          not particularly fitted to the body, were they? But I
          would welcome any evidence or indications to the
          contrary.


          >
          > The sermons you speak of, did you find an online
          > copy? Or a
          > particularly well written modern translation?

          Don't I wish. No, actually it was just that passage,
          quoted in Umberto Eco's Art and Beauty in the Middle
          Ages. (An enthralling read, btw. Heavy going in
          places, but a worthwhile contirbution to my quest to
          "learn the way the creatures think".) I console myself
          for all the books I can't find, can't afford, or don't
          have the time to read, by considering how medieval it
          is for most of one's learning to be snippets and
          nibbles quoted in other works.

          Gwervyl/Andrea



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        • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
          ... I was reading the article: Waugh, Christina Frieder. Well-Cut through the Body: Fitted Clothing in Twelfth-Century Europe, Dress (volume 26) 1999. It
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 9 4:59 PM
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
            <huwydd@y...> wrote:

            >
            > Certainly breast
            > > binding as a fashion
            > > seems to be a phenomenon of this period (due to
            > > closer fitting
            > > clothing for nobles).
            >
            > Hmmm....have you found anything suggesting that
            > breastbinding was a novel or unaccustomed fashion, or
            > is it just that we find definite evidence in this time
            > period? I tend to believe, putting Gilbert's
            > references together with the 8th cent Lombardic
            > reference, breast binding was common throughout the
            > medieval period - certainly Lombardic fashions were
            > not particularly fitted to the body, were they? But I
            > would welcome any evidence or indications to the
            > contrary.

            I was reading the article:
            Waugh, Christina Frieder. "Well-Cut through the Body: "Fitted Clothing
            in Twelfth-Century Europe, Dress (volume 26) 1999.

            It discusses the context of breast binding with 12thC fashion. I'm
            inclined to give her arguments weight. Now that doesn't mean breast
            binding wasn't happening before, just that suddenly it was a
            desireable thing to do, not for practicality, but to achieve the
            fashionable look. So you'd expect an increase in the number of large
            breasted women binding. (small firm breasted women already had the
            desired shape, so why bother?). I've also noticed that 12thC artwork
            depicts breast unnaturally or at least optomistically high, especially
            on those who are dressed very fashionably. Before I've thought it was
            poor artwork, but perhaps instead it is an exageration of the desired
            shape, and thus a good reason to bind even slightly saggy breasts.

            Anyway, fashions often spring from somewhere, so perhaps we consider
            that some women bound breasts before the 12thC for practicality, but
            for most moderate breasted women found it more bother than comfort.
            But in the 12th C, suddenly those moderate breasted women started
            doing what they saw their cousins doing when dresssing up fancy
            because they suddenly felt to big for the fashion. It's just
            supposition, unfortunately.

            Teffania
            p.s. Gilbert of Hoyland is quoted in the above article, but a
            differnt translation is given . Also a quote about desired breast
            shape being "small hard apples". I think court fashions were going
            through a bit of an androgenous phase. (There were clear differnces
            between the clothing of male and female, they were just only clear to
            the initiated - the male fashion looked feminine to clerics and
            earlier of later periods)
          • Andrea Luxenburg
            I found a lovely page http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 3 11:56 AM
              I found a lovely page

              http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm

              which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush down to my local craft store and lay in a stock of the threads for comparison, but looked online to see if there were a color chart there.  Indeed!  However, the DMC colors only go as high as 5286.  The numbers on the Regia chart all are in the 7000 range.

              Can someone untangle me this riddle?

              Thank you.

              Fflur verch hywel gwyddwyllt


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Diane Sawyer Dooley
              Which of DMC s products are you looking at?  Because on the DMC website (http://www.dmc-usa.com), the Tapestry Wool certainly does have colors in the 7000
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 3 1:30 PM
                Which of DMC's products are you looking at?  Because on the DMC website (http://www.dmc-usa.com), the Tapestry Wool certainly does have colors in the 7000 range, which is likely what Regia, being authenticity nuts, would use, rather than DMC cotton floss (especially since Paterna also seems to be a wool thread).

                Tasha




                >________________________________
                > From: Andrea Luxenburg <huwydd@...>
                >To: "Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com" <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                >Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:56 PM
                >Subject: [Authentic_SCA] DMC color conumdrum
                >
                >

                >
                >
                >I found a lovely page
                >
                >http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm
                >
                >which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush down to my local craft store and lay in a stock of the threads for comparison, but looked online to see if there were a color chart there.  Indeed!  However, the DMC colors only go as high as 5286.  The numbers on the Regia chart all are in the 7000 range.
                >
                >Can someone untangle me this riddle?
                >
                >Thank you.
                >
                >Fflur verch hywel gwyddwyllt
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Andrea Luxenburg
                That would be the problem, then.  Looking under the embroidery thread, I couldn t find the wools. Thank you so much ________________________________ From:
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 3 2:08 PM
                  That would be the problem, then.  Looking under the embroidery thread, I couldn't find the wools.

                  Thank you so much



                  ________________________________
                  From: Diane Sawyer Dooley <tasha_medvedeva@...>
                  To: "Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com" <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 1:30 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] DMC color conumdrum


                   
                  Which of DMC's products are you looking at?  Because on the DMC website (http://www.dmc-usa.com), the Tapestry Wool certainly does have colors in the 7000 range, which is likely what Regia, being authenticity nuts, would use, rather than DMC cotton floss (especially since Paterna also seems to be a wool thread).

                  Tasha

                  >________________________________
                  > From: Andrea Luxenburg <huwydd@...>
                  >To: "Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com" <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                  >Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2011 2:56 PM
                  >Subject: [Authentic_SCA] DMC color conumdrum
                  >
                  >

                  >
                  >
                  >I found a lovely page
                  >
                  >http://members.regia.org/dyes.htm
                  >
                  >which gives the color numbers, Paterna and DMC, for period dyes.  Wonderful!  I was all ready to rush down to my local craft store and lay in a stock of the threads for comparison, but looked online to see if there were a color chart there.  Indeed!  However, the DMC colors only go as high as 5286.  The numbers on the Regia chart all are in the 7000 range.
                  >
                  >Can someone untangle me this riddle?
                  >
                  >Thank you.
                  >
                  >Fflur verch hywel gwyddwyllt
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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