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Sleeve Shape Needed

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  • megh_e
    Hi, Does anyone know the sleeve shape for Henry II s famous 11th century coat? I don t remember if the pattern pieces are shown in Kohler, but it s at work so
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 6, 2004
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      Hi,

      Does anyone know the sleeve shape for Henry II's famous 11th century
      coat? I don't remember if the pattern pieces are shown in Kohler, but
      it's at work so it doesn't do me any good regardless. Any online
      pattern draft sources available?

      Picture here: http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html

      Thanks,
      Meghan E.
    • Heather Rose Jones
      ... If my recollection is correct, the base garment here is a later reconstruction -- only the embroidered bands survive from the original garment. So
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 7, 2004
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        At 2:00 AM +0000 11/7/04, megh_e wrote:
        >Hi,
        >
        >Does anyone know the sleeve shape for Henry II's famous 11th century
        >coat? I don't remember if the pattern pieces are shown in Kohler, but
        >it's at work so it doesn't do me any good regardless. Any online
        >pattern draft sources available?
        >
        >Picture here: http://www.virtue.to/articles/extant.html

        If my recollection is correct, the base garment here is a later
        reconstruction -- only the embroidered bands survive from the
        original garment. So information about the cut of the current
        sleeves will only give you insight into the date of the
        reconstruction (which I don't recall at the moment). I don't think
        I've ever seen a photo of it in any position other than hanging on a
        form, so the specific construction is a mystery. On the other hand,
        there are a number of other 12-13th c. albs (which is a better label
        for this garment) that could suggest clues. For example, two 12th c.
        albs associated with Thomas Becket (one at Sens cathedral, and one at
        St. Maria Maggiore in Rome) have sleeves with a basically rectangular
        construction (possibly slightly tapered and excessively long in one
        case) set into a rectangular body panel with a square gusset under
        the arm. Another style of alb sleeve is seen in the alb associated
        with St. Louis, which has significantly tapering sleeves (with a very
        wide base) set into a slightly shaped armscye of a more trapezoidal
        body panel and no underarm gusset. (In effect, the extreme flare of
        the sleeve forms its own underarm gusset.)

        Tangwystyl
        --
        ****
        Heather Rose Jones
        heather.jones@...
        ****
      • megh_e
        I didn t really know what to call it. Normally I only call that thing in my closet a coat :) Thank you. Your reply is a big help. Meghan E. ... a ... hand,
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 7, 2004
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          I didn't really know what to call it. Normally I only call that thing
          in my closet a "coat" :)

          Thank you. Your reply is a big help.

          Meghan E.



          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather Rose Jones
          <heather.jones@e...> wrote:
          >
          > If my recollection is correct, the base garment here is a later
          > reconstruction -- only the embroidered bands survive from the
          > original garment. So information about the cut of the current
          > sleeves will only give you insight into the date of the
          > reconstruction (which I don't recall at the moment). I don't think
          > I've ever seen a photo of it in any position other than hanging on
          a
          > form, so the specific construction is a mystery. On the other
          hand,
          > there are a number of other 12-13th c. albs (which is a better
          label
          > for this garment) that could suggest clues. For example, two 12th
          c.
          > albs associated with Thomas Becket (one at Sens cathedral, and one
          at
          > St. Maria Maggiore in Rome) have sleeves with a basically
          rectangular
          > construction (possibly slightly tapered and excessively long in one
          > case) set into a rectangular body panel with a square gusset under
          > the arm. Another style of alb sleeve is seen in the alb associated
          > with St. Louis, which has significantly tapering sleeves (with a
          very
          > wide base) set into a slightly shaped armscye of a more trapezoidal
          > body panel and no underarm gusset. (In effect, the extreme flare
          of
          > the sleeve forms its own underarm gusset.)
          >
          > Tangwystyl
          > --
          > ****
          > Heather Rose Jones
          > heather.jones@e...
          > ****
        • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
          ... Of course i had to look it up then... :-) Schraum, Denkmale der Deutschen Konige und Koniginen says (VERY roughly translated): The background silk was
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 7, 2004
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Heather Rose Jones
            <heather.jones@e...> wrote:
            > If my recollection is correct, the base garment here is a later
            > reconstruction -- only the embroidered bands survive from the
            > original garment. So information about the cut of the current
            > sleeves will only give you insight into the date of the
            > reconstruction (which I don't recall at the moment). I don't think
            > I've ever seen a photo of it in any position other than hanging on a
            > form, so the specific construction is a mystery.

            Of course i had to look it up then... :-)
            Schraum, "Denkmale der Deutschen Konige und Koniginen" says (VERY
            roughly translated):

            The background silk was changed sometimes over in the various
            differnet restorations, the last of which was in 1955. It says pieces
            of the previous backing material are in Munich (Nationalmusuem) and
            London (V&A).

            The accompanying picture, is of course hanging, and shows no seams
            (unless that is an unusual seam on top of the sleeve).


            The 11th or 12th century "alb of St Bernard of Utterect" seems to show
            the tapering sleeve style described in the diagram I've got of it. (I
            haven't got full details so can't be fully sure of the absence of seams).

            If you are reconstructing this - remember an alb is a religous
            garment. (such as might be worn by a cleric, or by a king at his
            coronation) In particular, the exact shape of the trim at the hem is
            something I've seen frequently in artwork of high ranking clerics, but
            is at least very rare on secular european 12C people's clothing. (the
            extension up around the side seams in particular - hem trim occurs
            with some frequency on high ranking "germans").

            Teffania
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