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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: belts

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  • Megan & Dave
    When pasting an Amazon link, you can safely eliminate everything after the first set of numbers. Everything else identifies your session, or you personally.
    Message 1 of 24 , Oct 1, 2004
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      When pasting an Amazon link, you can safely eliminate everything after the first set of numbers. Everything else identifies your session, or you personally. So a workable link would be http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0851158390
      (I learned this setting up links for a website I'm an administrator for :) )

      Gwenhyfar Stuart

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: wodeford
      To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, October 01, 2004 12:00 PM
      Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: belts


      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Rita" <rnauman@r...> wrote:
      > Thanks--is that on-line or in my library?

      Book. Details here:

      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-
      /0851158390/qid=1096646402/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-6033755-6961703?
      v=glance&s=books

      Jehanne



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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Melissa A Barton (S)
      [[I am MoAS of my local shire and looking to do a workshop in the near future where we make belts, but I d like them to be more authentic than the 2 inch, with
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 1, 2004
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        [[I am MoAS of my local shire and looking to do a workshop in the near
        future
        where we make belts, but I'd like them to be more authentic than the 2
        inch,
        with a loop end, etc. So...tell me what kind of belts are appropriate and
        help me out by listing the time frame and country so I can make a list.
        Lady fiona of the harp]]

        Authentic for Mongol is basically like a modern belt, with a (usually
        ornate) buckle, the short tail on the left side (maybe about 6-10 inches),
        and several metal plaques, sometimes with hooks or loops to attach
        objects, spaced around the belt. I doubt this will be useful for you, but
        if you want paintings/pictures of extant fittings, I can dig some up.

        -Qara Qulan



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rita
        Thanks...I don t know why you say you doubt it will be helpful...it is exactly what I m looking for. What kind of width is the belt usually?? [Authentic for
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 1, 2004
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          Thanks...I don't know why you say you doubt it will be helpful...it is
          exactly what I'm looking for. What kind of width is the belt usually??


          [Authentic for Mongol is basically like a modern belt, with a (usually
          ornate) buckle, the short tail on the left side (maybe about 6-10 inches),
          and several metal plaques, sometimes with hooks or loops to attach
          objects, spaced around the belt. I doubt this will be useful for you, but
          if you want paintings/pictures of extant fittings, I can dig some up.

          -Qara Qulan]
        • willo
          Snipped from Message 30824 ... Despina gave a great answer about how to make a wool belt way back in March 2003. Exactly what I needed to know, except... Does
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 29, 2005
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            Snipped from Message 30824
            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Amy L. Hornburg Heilveil" <aheilvei@u...>
            wrote:
            > Take a piece of wool. Felt it. Cut your belt out. Attach a buckle to it,
            > add holes for the buckle to hold.

            Despina gave a great answer about how to make a wool belt way back in March 2003.
            Exactly what I needed to know, except...

            Does anyone know whether a wool belt would be more likely to "match" or be a part of a
            particular outfit? Might a buckle be used with multiple wool/fabric belts?

            I have no evidence about this! Actually, my web searches have not been easy because wool
            comes up too readily in medieval garment searches. :) I'm wondering about this idea
            because:
            1) a thin strip of wool seems "cheap" compared to a leather belt, especially if you've just
            made a garment from said wool
            2) I've seen images where the outfit is clearly belted, but the belt isn't obviously visible
            3) based upon my limited leatherworking (in 7th grade shop class!), sewing a buckle to
            leather seems more work than attaching/re-attaching fabric to a buckle

            I'm particularly interested in 13th C. Spain, but I have ties to 13th C. England, and I am
            also just personally curious about who wore whatever belt whenever. :)

            Look at http://www.jessamynscloset.com/13thcbasic.html between the sections on The
            Saya and The Pellote for my ready-to-hand example of thought #2. From Cantiga 9, the
            lady in the blue dress is obviously belted, but only a tiny bit of... something... is visible to
            me.

            Then again, the image right next to that one from Liber Feudorum Ceritaniae, folio 71
            show people wearing *very* thin belts. Perhaps the belts are just so slim that they hide
            under the blousing of the tunic. The guy in orange with red-stripes does have a faintly
            visible belt, very thin, that looks to be the same orange as his tunic. Lack of paint colors,
            or suggestive of a matching belt?

            As always, deeply appreciative of what anyone can share!

            --Joya
          • Sabine
            ... sections on The ... Cantiga 9, the ... something... is visible to ... Just as a small note... I could be wrong on this, but I m thinking the person in the
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 30, 2005
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Joya wrote:
              > Look at http://www.jessamynscloset.com/13thcbasic.html between the
              sections on The
              > Saya and The Pellote for my ready-to-hand example of thought #2. From
              Cantiga 9, the
              > lady in the blue dress is obviously belted, but only a tiny bit of...
              something... is visible to
              > me.

              Just as a small note... I could be wrong on this, but I'm thinking the
              person in the blue garment is more likely to be a man than a woman. I'm
              basing that on two things: the coif over otherwise unadorned/undressed
              hair, and more importantly the wind instrument being played. In my
              general experience, you very seldom see *medieval* women playing
              mouth-blown wind instruments unless they're actually angels, marginal
              grotesques, or other allegorical figures -- you do get Renaissance
              women flute and recorder players later on, but AFAIK, almost no
              realistically depicted medieval female shawm, pipe, or flute players.

              I should note that if people have lots of wind instrument
              images/quotations demonstrating the contrary, I'd love to see them!
              Also, garb is definitely not my specialty, so take my opinion with a
              couple of grains of salt as far as that goes...

              -Sabine de Kerbriant


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            • lilinah@earthlink.net
              ... I agree with Sabine. Both musicians look like youthful males to me. In Spain in this period men also wore sideless surcoats - called pellotes . In the
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 31, 2005
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                Sabine wrote:
                >Joya wrote:
                > > Look at http://www.jessamynscloset.com/13thcbasic.html between
                >the sections on The
                > > Saya and The Pellote for my ready-to-hand example of thought #2.
                >From Cantiga 9, the
                > > lady in the blue dress is obviously belted, but only a tiny bit
                >of... something... is visible to
                > > me.
                >
                >Just as a small note... I could be wrong on this, but I'm thinking the
                >person in the blue garment is more likely to be a man than a woman. I'm
                >basing that on two things: the coif over otherwise unadorned/undressed
                >hair, and more importantly the wind instrument being played. In my
                >general experience, you very seldom see *medieval* women playing
                >mouth-blown wind instruments unless they're actually angels, marginal
                >grotesques, or other allegorical figures -- you do get Renaissance
                >women flute and recorder players later on, but AFAIK, almost no
                >realistically depicted medieval female shawm, pipe, or flute players.

                I agree with Sabine. Both musicians look like youthful males to me.
                In Spain in this period men also wore "sideless surcoats" - called
                "pellotes".

                In the next picture, there's a woman in between two males.

                And in the next row of three pictures, the first (the "fiddler") is
                male and the 2nd and 3rd are female.
                --
                Urtatim (that's err-tah-TEEM)
                the persona formerly known as Anahita
              • willo
                ... Yeah--you guys are right. That s what I get for trying to very quickly find an image to match something I ve seen. :) But what about those skinny
                Message 7 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, lilinah@e... wrote:
                  > Sabine wrote:
                  > >Joya wrote:
                  > > > ...the lady in the blue dress is obviously belted, ...
                  > >
                  > >Just as a small note... I could be wrong on this, but I'm thinking the
                  > >person in the blue garment is more likely to be a man than a woman....
                  >
                  > I agree with Sabine. Both musicians look like youthful males to me. ...

                  Yeah--you guys are right. That's what I get for trying to very quickly find an image to
                  match something I've seen. <sigh> :)

                  But what about those skinny belts? Wool? Leather? Was suede ever used? Because the tails
                  hanging down seem to sway/flop a little, though, as always, that could be something
                  artistic.

                  And what about wool belts in general? Are they more likely to be part of an outfit than a
                  generic accessory?

                  I know lots of extant belt buckles have been unearthed, but what about belts? Anyone ever
                  heard of a wool belt being recovered?

                  --Joya
                • lucia_sforza
                  In the Museum of London s _Dress Accessories_, wool garters are found. If garters, why not belts? Lucia Sforza I know lots of extant belt buckles have been
                  Message 8 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
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                    In the Museum of London's _Dress Accessories_, wool garters are found.
                    If garters, why not belts?

                    Lucia Sforza

                    I know lots of extant belt buckles have been unearthed, but what
                    about belts? Anyone ever
                    > heard of a wool belt being recovered?
                    >
                    > --Joya
                  • Marc Carlson
                    ... Meaning no disrespect, but there s a fallacy there. Just because something is possible doesn t mean it happened that way. The only way to prove that they
                    Message 9 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...> wrote:
                      > In the Museum of London's _Dress Accessories_, wool garters are
                      > found. If garters, why not belts?

                      Meaning no disrespect, but there's a fallacy there. Just because
                      something is possible doesn't mean it happened that way. The only way
                      to prove that they did do it is to find some (and isn't there a woven
                      belt IN Dress Accessories?).

                      Now if you want to do woven belts because you know there are woven
                      garters, that's hunky dory, but it's speculation.

                      Marc/Diarmaid
                    • lucia_sforza
                      MODERATOR NOTE: PLEASE DON T TOP-POST, RATHER, SNIP AND INCLUDE ONLY THE RELEVANT PORTIONS OF A POST YOU WISH TO QUOTE. If we are limited to only extant finds,
                      Message 10 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
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                        MODERATOR NOTE:
                        PLEASE DON'T TOP-POST, RATHER, SNIP AND INCLUDE ONLY THE RELEVANT PORTIONS OF A POST YOU WISH TO QUOTE.


                        If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty naked
                        and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set of clothing!

                        This would also remove ALL paintings and illuminations as reference
                        sources, because we cannot validate actual garment from artistic
                        license. This would also invalidate written techniques, as we cannot
                        confirm the writer actually did/witnessed the technique.

                        I wholeheartly agree of using archeological means whenever possible,
                        but limited interpretation is essential since we cannot excavate an
                        entire culture.

                        Lucia
                      • Marc Carlson
                        ... Since I didn t suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not really something I can speak to. ... Again, nothing I can speak to but you do seem to
                        Message 11 of 24 , Sep 1, 2005
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                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...> wrote:
                          > If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty
                          > naked and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set of
                          > clothing!

                          Since I didn't suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not
                          really something I can speak to.

                          > This would also remove ALL paintings and illuminations as reference
                          > sources, because we cannot validate actual garment from artistic
                          > license. This would also invalidate written techniques, as we
                          > cannot confirm the writer actually did/witnessed the technique.

                          Again, nothing I can speak to but you do seem to be making the best
                          the enemy of the good, which, while not a traditional logical fallacy,
                          ought to be (in my opinion).

                          > I wholeheartly agree of using archeological means whenever
                          > possible, but limited interpretation is essential since we cannot
                          > excavate an entire culture.

                          I doubt you've ever heard me suggest that archaeology is the only
                          available source material, I certainly have no problems with using
                          other sources of information.

                          However, the statement "well they had this similar thing, why couldn't
                          they have had that" is not basing doing something on some other
                          source, it's basing doing something on speculation.

                          For example, chairs. I have heard the argument given "that well we
                          know they knew how to make chairs with a back, so I'm going to use a
                          chair with a back", when the fact is that chairs with backs were not
                          common until relatively recently. This is because chairs had an
                          ideotechnic function that trumped simply being able to make them. The
                          person with the chair was the socially superior/suthoritative person
                          in the room/household/college/meeting/whathave you. That's why
                          committees today have "Chairmen".

                          The fact that they *could* do it doesn't alter the fact that they
                          *didn't* do it.

                          Marc/Diarmaid
                        • sismith42
                          ... of ... Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to answer the question of did they weave belts or not? , well:
                          Message 12 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
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                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h
                            ...> wrote:
                            > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "lucia_sforza" <dawnv@g...>
                            wrote:
                            > > If we are limited to only extant finds, the SCA would be pretty
                            > > naked and boring- not to mention no one would have an entire set
                            of
                            > > clothing!
                            >
                            > Since I didn't suggest we limit it only to archaeology this is a not
                            > really something I can speak to.

                            Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to answer
                            the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:

                            http://www.guntram.co.za/tabletweaving/docs/belt2003/belt2003.
                            htm#AppendixB

                            http://www.forest.gen.nz/Medieval/articles/belts/belts.html

                            (both found on page one a Google search for medieval woven belt...)

                            Stephanie
                          • Marc Carlson
                            ... Shhh! I m trying to make a point :) BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I know I ve seen a picture of one that s a plan
                            Message 13 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...> wrote:
                              > ...Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to
                              > answer the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:...

                              Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)

                              BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I
                              know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven band
                              that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.

                              Marc/Diarmaid
                            • Amy Heilveil
                              ... If you re hallucinating, so am I because I know exactly what you re talking about.... now, after work, I ll have to pull the book off of the shelf before I
                              Message 14 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
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                                >
                                >
                                > BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories? I
                                > know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven band
                                > that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.


                                If you're hallucinating, so am I because I know exactly what you're talking
                                about.... now, after work, I'll have to pull the book off of the shelf
                                before I head to an event for the weekend.
                                Smiles,
                                Despina de la darned people plant images in your head when you need to pack


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Cynthia J Ley
                                ... Pg 35: Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads of silk, linen or
                                Message 15 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
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                                  > BTW, am I hallucinating about there being one in Dress Accesories?
                                  > I
                                  > know I've seen a picture of one that's a plan simple tablet woven
                                  > band
                                  > that looks a lot like the nylon webbing belts I wore in the Army.
                                  >
                                  > Marc/Diarmaid

                                  Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or were
                                  woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads of silk,
                                  linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing' style you
                                  refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.

                                  Arlys
                                • Marc Carlson
                                  ... Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources) Marc/Diarmaid (I m currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that I *know* is in this
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
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                                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
                                    > Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or
                                    > were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads
                                    > of silk, linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing'
                                    > style you refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.

                                    Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources)

                                    Marc/Diarmaid
                                    (I'm currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that
                                    I *know* is in this stupid book, but it doesn't want to give it up...)
                                  • Tiffany Brown
                                    Just a quick note - it s after my bedtime. Tabletweaving makes very versatile and tough belts in a technique that is easy to add elaboration (during production
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Sep 2, 2005
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                                      Just a quick note - it's after my bedtime.

                                      Tabletweaving makes very versatile and tough belts in a technique that
                                      is easy to add elaboration (during production or after) too. I
                                      suspect this is what makes them very popular. I think I can find half
                                      a dozen extant examples in my tiny reference library. I find even a
                                      simple tabletwoven belt far suprerior to any cloth belt, especially
                                      for stiffness and grip to the garment underneath. Generally silk is
                                      used (ordinary grade wool is not very suitable) some linen, a handful
                                      wool - most reflect rich folk easily able to afford silk.

                                      I've seen a few 12th french scupltures (I don't look much at other
                                      periods) and a few manuscript drawings that are a bit more vaugue,
                                      that look to be plaited rope belts.

                                      The priest's ceremonial belt - cingulum was often preserved, so we
                                      have lots of extant ones, often very heavily decorated. A number are
                                      made from cloth, heavily embroidered. I think all the ones I've seen
                                      were silk fabric (when you can afford it get the best) although linen
                                      could be possible if the embroidery completely covered it. I don't
                                      know if this sort of useage transfers to non-clerical useage. Several
                                      of the cingula are probably quite stiff from the ammount of emboidery
                                      (often goldwork).

                                      Teffania






                                      On 9/3/05, Marc Carlson <marccarlson20@...> wrote:
                                      > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Cynthia J Ley <cley@j...> wrote:
                                      > > Pg 35: "Girdles and various other types of belt were from leather or
                                      > > were woven (usually by manipulating a pack of tablets) from threads
                                      > > of silk, linen or worsted." There are some photos of the 'webbing'
                                      > > style you refer to on pg. 48. These are tablet-woven.
                                      >
                                      > Thank you! (I hate it when I hallucinate sources)
                                      >
                                      > Marc/Diarmaid
                                      > (I'm currently trying to track down a Victorian drawing of a shoe that
                                      > I *know* is in this stupid book, but it doesn't want to give it up...)
                                      >
                                    • sismith42
                                      ... Ah, so my snide little see page one of a Google search for the obvious topic comment wasn t pointed enough? ;-) Stephanie/Estevana
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h
                                        ...> wrote:
                                        > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > ...Heck, if we *did* decide to limit ourselves to archaology to
                                        > > answer the question of "did they weave belts or not?", well:...
                                        >
                                        > Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)

                                        Ah, so my snide little "see page one of a Google search for the
                                        obvious topic" comment wasn't pointed enough? ;-)

                                        Stephanie/Estevana
                                      • Marc Carlson
                                        ... No, it was fine, for this specific topic (i.e. look here to support your position ). The point I was aiming for was a little broader ( just because
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Sep 7, 2005
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                                          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "sismith42" <sismith42@y...> wrote:
                                          >> Shhh! I'm trying to make a point :)
                                          > Ah, so my snide little "see page one of a Google search for the
                                          > obvious topic" comment wasn't pointed enough? ;-)

                                          No, it was fine, for this specific topic (i.e. "look here to support
                                          your position"). The point I was aiming for was a little broader
                                          ("just because something is logically valid doesn't make it true").

                                          Ah well, maybe next time :)

                                          Marc/Diarmaid
                                        • michaelstuartgraham
                                          -Hi, All. If I might weigh in on this subject, as one who wears garters regularly with my 16th/17th Cent kit, garters are intended to be tied above the calf
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Sep 18, 2005
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                                            -Hi, All. If I might weigh in on this subject, as one who wears
                                            garters regularly with my 16th/17th Cent kit, garters are intended to
                                            be tied above the calf and below the knee to hold up the hose. Wool
                                            being slightly springy, it allows the garters to hold up the hose
                                            without being too constrictive, sort of a period version of elastic.
                                            To use the same analogy, we do have modern belts and trousers
                                            (sansabelts) that do the same thing, but on the whole, belts for the
                                            waist are generally made to be rigid rather than elastic, so as to
                                            hold up the stuff they were meant to carry (purse, knife, etc.)and so
                                            are made of leather or some other material that has some support. Mike T.
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