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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Authenticity Guild Poll

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  • Greg Lindahl
    ... A good example of this is the word guild ! I hadn t heard about social guilds in period before, was that exact name ( guild ) common for that usage?
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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      On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 05:42:32PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:

      > however in the SCA there is a propensity for
      > terms to be removed from their context and used unilaterally for
      > everything of a similar nature regardless of appropriateness.

      A good example of this is the word "guild"! I hadn't heard about
      "social guilds" in period before, was that exact name ("guild") common
      for that usage?

      Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl" in
      the East Kingdom:

      http://www.rezonate.com/gpearl/

      -- Gregory
    • azilisarmor
      ... Pearl in ... Shame on you!!!!! Deroch
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded
        Pearl" in
        > the East Kingdom:
        >
        > http://www.rezonate.com/gpearl/
        >
        > -- Gregory



        Shame on you!!!!!

        Deroch
      • Willow Polson
        ... I don t. YMMV. ... I figured it wasn t so much for that as to be able to identify who it was okay to talk to regarding authenticity without the other party
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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          At 05:42 PM 9/30/2004 +0000, you wrote:
          >do
          >we really want the term "enchanted" to unilaterally represent those
          >who are looking for authenticity, accuracy or whatnot?

          I don't. YMMV.

          >An easy identifier might also make it easier to
          >see who it would be appopriate to "help", and who probably jut wants
          >to be left to their own thing.

          I figured it wasn't so much for that as to be able to identify who it was
          okay to talk to regarding authenticity without the other party either
          getting offended or attacking us as "snarks" or "nazis". Like if I'm in
          public and I see a pentacle, I know it's probably safe to talk about
          witchcraft with that person if we care to strike up a conversation.

          >Getting the details
          >correct is crucial in most forms of religious iconography - e.g. Mary
          >may be in biblical dress, or contemporary clothes, but she'll always
          >be recognizable by the details. Their focus on what was important was
          >different.

          Ah! Good point! Very well stated... it makes a lot of sense. And that's
          what the proposed group is all about too... getting the details correct
          (sorta). Aw, you know what I mean. 8-)

          - Willow MacPherson


          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
          Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
          http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        • Marc Carlson
          ... According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to the 12th century referring to an association of dues paying members organized for
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
            > On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 05:42:32PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:
            > > however in the SCA there is a propensity for
            > > terms to be removed from their context and used unilaterally for
            > > everything of a similar nature regardless of appropriateness.
            > A good example of this is the word "guild"! I hadn't heard about
            > "social guilds" in period before, was that exact name ("guild") common
            > for that usage?
            According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to
            the 12th century referring to "an association of dues paying members
            organized for charitable, religious or political purposes" (in this
            case, of course "dues paying" refers to deciding there is an
            affiliation and getting some sort of identifier that will fit your kit)
            Just looking around for examples
            Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield (ordinances dated 1387)

            Ah in _the returns, in English, ...blah,blah,blah.... English Gilds in
            teh twelfth year of Richard II, A.D. 1389...:

            Gild of Garlikhith, London
            Gild of St. Katherine, Aldersgate, London
            Gild of Sts. Fabian and Sebastian, Aldersgate, London,
            Gild of St. Mary, Norwich
            Gild of St. Botolph, Norwich
            and so...

            > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl"
            > in the East Kingdom:

            A group about which I know nothing whatsoever.

            Marc/Diarmaid
          • Lady_Lark_Azure
            ... Pearl ... That would be the Gilded (as in covered with gold) Pearl . The purpose of THE GILDED PEARL is the aligned study of the Renaissance Period
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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              > > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded
              Pearl"
              > > in the East Kingdom:
              >
              > A group about which I know nothing whatsoever.

              That would be the "Gilded (as in covered with gold) Pearl".

              "The purpose of THE GILDED PEARL is the aligned study of the
              Renaissance Period (c.1450-1650) throughout the Known World for the
              enrichment of its members and for the benefit of the Society for
              Creative Anachronism"

              Isabeau
            • Greg Lindahl
              ... Right. That s not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word bard like the plague due to SCA
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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                On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 07:15:02PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:

                > According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to
                > the 12th century referring to "an association of dues paying members
                > organized for charitable, religious or political purposes"

                Right. That's not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to
                refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word "bard" like the
                plague due to SCA overuse, and it turns out that in most times and
                places, it wasn't the most common way to refer to a minstrel.

                So, instead of creating dance guilds in Atlantia and the West, we have
                L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse and the West Kingdom College of
                Dance.

                > > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl"
                > > in the East Kingdom:
                >
                > A group about which I know nothing whatsoever.

                Which is why I included a URL, so you could find out. A funny play on
                the overuse of "guild", don't you think? Probably not what they had in
                mind, but I like finding humor even where unintended.

                -- Gregory
              • Marc Carlson
                ... We can assume that it was used to refer to such associations, at least in English (the language I m currently writing in) because we have documents that go
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
                  >> According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to
                  >> the 12th century referring to "an association of dues paying
                  >> members organized for charitable, religious or political purposes"
                  > Right. That's not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to
                  > refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word "bard" like the
                  > plague due to SCA overuse, and it turns out that in most times and
                  > places, it wasn't the most common way to refer to a minstrel.

                  We can assume that it was used to refer to such associations, at least
                  in English (the language I'm currently writing in) because we have
                  documents that go back that far that use the word.

                  Looking at the OED, which for a change goes back further on a
                  definiton than the MED:

                  " ?a1000 Abbottsbury Charter in Kemble Cod. Dipl. IV. 279 For(th)an
                  (th)e we for his lufon (TH)is 3egyld 3egaderodon.
                  a1109 in Gross Gild Merch. (1890) II. 37 (TH)is beo(th) (TH)a 3ehworfe
                  betwux (th)an hirede æt Xrescircean and (th)an cnihtan on
                  Cantwareberig of ceapmanne 3ilde. Se heap on ceapmanne 3ilde let [etc.]. "
                  and so on.

                  I am using "guild" in this context, generally, to refer to a social
                  guild in a fairly accurate medieval sense.

                  Marc/Diarmaid
                • Greg Lindahl
                  ... That s not the question that I m asking. You can t answer the question was it common? by looking in the dictionary under guild . You certainly don t
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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                    On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 08:26:53PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:

                    > > Right. That's not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to
                    > > refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word "bard" like the
                    > > plague due to SCA overuse, and it turns out that in most times and
                    > > places, it wasn't the most common way to refer to a minstrel.
                    >
                    > We can assume that it was used to refer to such associations, at least
                    > in English (the language I'm currently writing in) because we have
                    > documents that go back that far that use the word.

                    That's not the question that I'm asking. You can't answer the question
                    "was it common?" by looking in the dictionary under "guild".

                    You certainly don't have to answer the question at all -- it seems
                    that it's not something that you care about. That's fine. We all have
                    different interests.

                    As another example of why I think this question is interesting, one
                    Elizabethan re-enactment group I play with is somewhat agonized that
                    their encampments have too few A-frame tents, compared to woodcuts and
                    paintings of military encampments of the era.

                    -- Gregory
                  • Marc Carlson
                    ... Clearly I am unable to answer this question to your satisfaction. Therefore I yield the field. Marc/Diarmaid
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
                      > That's not the question that I'm asking. You can't answer the question
                      > "was it common?" by looking in the dictionary under "guild".

                      Clearly I am unable to answer this question to your satisfaction.
                      Therefore I yield the field.

                      Marc/Diarmaid
                    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                      In a message dated 9/30/2004 6:06:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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                        In a message dated 9/30/2004 6:06:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                        <<Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl" in
                        the East Kingdom:>>

                        Sorry, the "Gilded (as in "made golden") Pearl" is neither a guild nor a
                        social group. It's a chartered group of people interested in late period dress
                        and personas, as I recall properly. It probably most resembles a craft guild,
                        but with members who do everything from make everything to make one thing well
                        to know who to buy from :-)

                        Brangwayna
                      • Greg Lindahl
                        ... I didn t mean to imply that it was a guild. From what I ve seen, the members are quite social. -- Gregory
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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                          On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 07:14:15PM -0400, bronwynmgn@... wrote:

                          > Sorry, the "Gilded (as in "made golden") Pearl" is neither a guild nor a
                          > social group.

                          I didn't mean to imply that it was a guild. From what I've seen, the
                          members are quite social.

                          -- Gregory
                        • katherinejsanders
                          I just thought I d say THANK YOU to Marc for putting in the time and effort to create the poll and take our circuitous conversations towards a point of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
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                            I just thought I'd say THANK YOU to Marc for putting in the time and
                            effort to create the poll and take our circuitous conversations
                            towards a point of resolution.

                            THANK YOU.

                            Now I have to make up my pesky mind...

                            Katherine
                          • Lisa
                            ... (not unlike the rainbow of ribbons we ... I think the ribbon analogy is apt! Ysabel
                            Message 13 of 21 , Oct 1, 2004
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                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Rather than beat my head into a wall in a pointless battle that isn't
                              > that important, I figured we should just accept that tendancy and find
                              > our own term(s) rather than have them thoughtlessly appear in the argot.
                              >
                              > The options, as I saw them when I made this suggestion, were that we
                              > go with a medieval guild model. A social guild in this case could
                              > have membership gained by simply deciding to be a member - no
                              > leadership or organization (i.e. minimize the opportunity for
                              > politics) - just a way for people to indicate that they were
                              > supportive of authenticity

                              (not unlike the rainbow of ribbons we
                              > frequently see, but possibly something less, non-historical.

                              I think the ribbon analogy is apt!

                              Ysabel
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