Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Authenticity Guild Poll

Expand Messages
  • Marc Carlson
    Since this list has something like 956 members, of whome the majority are not (to be realistic) not likely to post, I ve created a poll on this topic {log in
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Since this list has something like 956 members, of whome the majority
      are not (to be realistic) not likely to post, I've created a poll on
      this topic {log in to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Authentic_SCA,
      click on "poll"). You may pick more than one answer. The poll will
      close on the 14th of October. The more people who vote the better, so
      please vote (and yes, "I think it's a stupid idea" is one of the
      options).

      Maybe we can see how much support is there in the first place.

      Marc/Diarmaid
    • Greg Lindahl
      ... But you left off the Huh? option -- guild? social guild? Never run into that in the SCA, and it s certainly not what a guild was in period. -- Gregory
      Message 2 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 02:37:31PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:

        > The more people who vote the better, so
        > please vote (and yes, "I think it's a stupid idea" is one of the
        > options).

        But you left off the "Huh?" option -- guild? social guild? Never run
        into that in the SCA, and it's certainly not what a guild was in
        period.

        -- Gregory
      • azilisarmor
        Granted, social guild for authenticists is an oxymoron, but IIRC the discussion which prompted it was how to identify authenticity- minded individuals so as
        Message 3 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Granted, "social guild for authenticists" is an oxymoron, but IIRC
          the discussion which prompted it was "how to identify authenticity-
          minded individuals so as to (a) allow them to band together at
          events, and (b) avoid accusations of snarking from non-authenticity-
          minded-individuals."
          Which also would not have been much of a problem in period. Maybe.

          Deroch

          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...>
          wrote:
          >
          > But you left off the "Huh?" option -- guild? social guild? Never
          run
          > into that in the SCA, and it's certainly not what a guild was in
          > period.
          >
          > -- Gregory
        • Willow Polson
          I did the best I could, but there wasn t really an option for I love the idea, but let s use a name that doesn t involve saints. Why the need for the whole
          Message 4 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            I did the best I could, but there wasn't really an option for "I love the
            idea, but let's use a name that doesn't involve saints." Why the need for
            the whole saint thing? It just makes it unnecessarily cryptic, especially
            to newcomers.

            K.I.S.S... I can come up with plainspeech names for an hour if people want
            to brainstorm on names.

            - Willow (ach, say wha' ya mean, laddie!) MacPherson

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
            Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
            http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          • Greg Lindahl
            ... Ah. That s not at all what I thought of when I saw the words social guild . The usual example in the Authenticity world is the Enchanted Ground, although
            Message 5 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 04:33:55PM -0000, azilisarmor wrote:

              > Granted, "social guild for authenticists" is an oxymoron, but IIRC
              > the discussion which prompted it was "how to identify authenticity-
              > minded individuals so as to (a) allow them to band together at
              > events, and (b) avoid accusations of snarking from non-authenticity-
              > minded-individuals."

              Ah. That's not at all what I thought of when I saw the words "social
              guild". The usual example in the Authenticity world is the Enchanted
              Ground, although the EG doesn't do anything about (b)...

              -- Gregory
            • Gary Halstead
              ... If you re thinking of craft guilds, then you re correct. However, there were plenty of social/religious/charitable organizations in period that styled
              Message 6 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                Greg Lindahl wrote:

                > But you left off the "Huh?" option -- guild? social guild? Never run
                > into that in the SCA, and it's certainly not what a guild was in
                > period.
                >
                > -- Gregory

                If you're thinking of craft guilds, then you're correct. However, there
                were plenty of social/religious/charitable organizations in period that
                styled themselves "guilds" (or the local equivalent) - the Venetian
                scuoli come immediately to mind, as does York's Guild of Corpus Christi.
                I'm sure a bit of research would turn up other examples.

                Ranulf
              • Wendy
                ... especially ... I m not entirely sure how I feel about it either (being Jewish mundanely, I wouldn t be entirely comfortable wearing any saint s insignia --
                Message 7 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > Why the need for
                  > the whole saint thing? It just makes it unnecessarily cryptic,
                  especially
                  > to newcomers.

                  I'm not entirely sure how I feel about it either (being Jewish
                  mundanely, I wouldn't be entirely comfortable wearing any saint's
                  insignia -- but I don't want to impose my personal issues on others,
                  so I'm not sure where that leaves me position-wise...). Regardless,
                  I do see a need for a slightly "cryptic" name -- which is that
                  whatever the group's name is, people will need to be able to say it
                  while in persona. So, "League of Authenticists" just isn't going to
                  cut it!

                  -Sabine
                • Marc Carlson
                  ... Which more or less brings us back to the beginning of the thread - do we really want the term enchanted to unilaterally represent those who are looking
                  Message 8 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
                    > On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 04:33:55PM -0000, azilisarmor wrote:
                    > Ah. That's not at all what I thought of when I saw the words "social
                    > guild". The usual example in the Authenticity world is the Enchanted
                    > Ground, although the EG doesn't do anything about (b)...

                    Which more or less brings us back to the beginning of the thread - do
                    we really want the term "enchanted" to unilaterally represent those
                    who are looking for authenticity, accuracy or whatnot? For the place
                    at Pennsic, it is a good name - it has its own history, tradition and
                    practice to support it -- however in the SCA there is a propensity for
                    terms to be removed from their context and used unilaterally for
                    everything of a similar nature regardless of appropriateness.

                    Rather than beat my head into a wall in a pointless battle that isn't
                    that important, I figured we should just accept that tendancy and find
                    our own term(s) rather than have them thoughtlessly appear in the argot.

                    The options, as I saw them when I made this suggestion, were that we
                    go with a medieval guild model. A social guild in this case could
                    have membership gained by simply deciding to be a member - no
                    leadership or organization (i.e. minimize the opportunity for
                    politics) - just a way for people to indicate that they were
                    supportive of authenticity (not unlike the rainbow of ribbons we
                    frequently see, but possibly something less, non-historical. If
                    individual people wanted to do more with it, they certainly could do
                    that too.

                    If we went with a trade guild model (i.e. the Company of
                    Authenticists, Accurists and Educators) this could imply a greater
                    sends of authority and structure than I'd be interested in working
                    with myself.

                    Social guilds indicating membership in a community joined by
                    -something-, are most certainly "period". Generally these were parish
                    organizations, and it has been argued that these formed the original
                    basis for the later development of trade guilds (if all your thingie
                    makers all live in the same parish, they are likely to be spending a
                    lot of time together). There were also local guilds and fraternities
                    of folks brought together to put on religious ceremonies and plays.

                    My thought was that our "parish", or community is each other, and
                    those who are interested in the same things we are - whether we are
                    dressing in or using the most perfect reproductions, or are still
                    dressing the ubiquitous SCA cotton broadcloth t-tunic and just
                    thinking that your budget might not support a big commitment, but it
                    just sounds cool... An easy identifier might also make it easier to
                    see who it would be appopriate to "help", and who probably jut wants
                    to be left to their own thing.

                    It's been said that "authenticity" isn't a period concept anyway.
                    This is false. "Authenticity" was viewed differently - for example
                    many people would be depicted in contemporary clothes, not historical
                    (to them). Usually. Consider, however, items like the Mac Bible, in
                    which many of the biblical characters are being shown in old timey
                    biblical clothes, and not the contemporary ones. Getting the details
                    correct is crucial in most forms of religious iconography - e.g. Mary
                    may be in biblical dress, or contemporary clothes, but she'll always
                    be recognizable by the details. Their focus on what was important was
                    different.

                    Marc/Diarmaid
                  • Greg Lindahl
                    ... A good example of this is the word guild ! I hadn t heard about social guilds in period before, was that exact name ( guild ) common for that usage?
                    Message 9 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 05:42:32PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:

                      > however in the SCA there is a propensity for
                      > terms to be removed from their context and used unilaterally for
                      > everything of a similar nature regardless of appropriateness.

                      A good example of this is the word "guild"! I hadn't heard about
                      "social guilds" in period before, was that exact name ("guild") common
                      for that usage?

                      Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl" in
                      the East Kingdom:

                      http://www.rezonate.com/gpearl/

                      -- Gregory
                    • azilisarmor
                      ... Pearl in ... Shame on you!!!!! Deroch
                      Message 10 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded
                        Pearl" in
                        > the East Kingdom:
                        >
                        > http://www.rezonate.com/gpearl/
                        >
                        > -- Gregory



                        Shame on you!!!!!

                        Deroch
                      • Willow Polson
                        ... I don t. YMMV. ... I figured it wasn t so much for that as to be able to identify who it was okay to talk to regarding authenticity without the other party
                        Message 11 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          At 05:42 PM 9/30/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                          >do
                          >we really want the term "enchanted" to unilaterally represent those
                          >who are looking for authenticity, accuracy or whatnot?

                          I don't. YMMV.

                          >An easy identifier might also make it easier to
                          >see who it would be appopriate to "help", and who probably jut wants
                          >to be left to their own thing.

                          I figured it wasn't so much for that as to be able to identify who it was
                          okay to talk to regarding authenticity without the other party either
                          getting offended or attacking us as "snarks" or "nazis". Like if I'm in
                          public and I see a pentacle, I know it's probably safe to talk about
                          witchcraft with that person if we care to strike up a conversation.

                          >Getting the details
                          >correct is crucial in most forms of religious iconography - e.g. Mary
                          >may be in biblical dress, or contemporary clothes, but she'll always
                          >be recognizable by the details. Their focus on what was important was
                          >different.

                          Ah! Good point! Very well stated... it makes a lot of sense. And that's
                          what the proposed group is all about too... getting the details correct
                          (sorta). Aw, you know what I mean. 8-)

                          - Willow MacPherson


                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                          Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                          http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        • Marc Carlson
                          ... According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to the 12th century referring to an association of dues paying members organized for
                          Message 12 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
                            > On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 05:42:32PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:
                            > > however in the SCA there is a propensity for
                            > > terms to be removed from their context and used unilaterally for
                            > > everything of a similar nature regardless of appropriateness.
                            > A good example of this is the word "guild"! I hadn't heard about
                            > "social guilds" in period before, was that exact name ("guild") common
                            > for that usage?
                            According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to
                            the 12th century referring to "an association of dues paying members
                            organized for charitable, religious or political purposes" (in this
                            case, of course "dues paying" refers to deciding there is an
                            affiliation and getting some sort of identifier that will fit your kit)
                            Just looking around for examples
                            Gild of St. Mary, Lichfield (ordinances dated 1387)

                            Ah in _the returns, in English, ...blah,blah,blah.... English Gilds in
                            teh twelfth year of Richard II, A.D. 1389...:

                            Gild of Garlikhith, London
                            Gild of St. Katherine, Aldersgate, London
                            Gild of Sts. Fabian and Sebastian, Aldersgate, London,
                            Gild of St. Mary, Norwich
                            Gild of St. Botolph, Norwich
                            and so...

                            > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl"
                            > in the East Kingdom:

                            A group about which I know nothing whatsoever.

                            Marc/Diarmaid
                          • Lady_Lark_Azure
                            ... Pearl ... That would be the Gilded (as in covered with gold) Pearl . The purpose of THE GILDED PEARL is the aligned study of the Renaissance Period
                            Message 13 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded
                              Pearl"
                              > > in the East Kingdom:
                              >
                              > A group about which I know nothing whatsoever.

                              That would be the "Gilded (as in covered with gold) Pearl".

                              "The purpose of THE GILDED PEARL is the aligned study of the
                              Renaissance Period (c.1450-1650) throughout the Known World for the
                              enrichment of its members and for the benefit of the Society for
                              Creative Anachronism"

                              Isabeau
                            • Greg Lindahl
                              ... Right. That s not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word bard like the plague due to SCA
                              Message 14 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                              • 0 Attachment
                                On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 07:15:02PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:

                                > According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to
                                > the 12th century referring to "an association of dues paying members
                                > organized for charitable, religious or political purposes"

                                Right. That's not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to
                                refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word "bard" like the
                                plague due to SCA overuse, and it turns out that in most times and
                                places, it wasn't the most common way to refer to a minstrel.

                                So, instead of creating dance guilds in Atlantia and the West, we have
                                L'Academie Atlantienne de la Danse and the West Kingdom College of
                                Dance.

                                > > Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl"
                                > > in the East Kingdom:
                                >
                                > A group about which I know nothing whatsoever.

                                Which is why I included a URL, so you could find out. A funny play on
                                the overuse of "guild", don't you think? Probably not what they had in
                                mind, but I like finding humor even where unintended.

                                -- Gregory
                              • Marc Carlson
                                ... We can assume that it was used to refer to such associations, at least in English (the language I m currently writing in) because we have documents that go
                                Message 15 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
                                  >> According to the Middle English Dictionary it goes back at least to
                                  >> the 12th century referring to "an association of dues paying
                                  >> members organized for charitable, religious or political purposes"
                                  > Right. That's not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to
                                  > refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word "bard" like the
                                  > plague due to SCA overuse, and it turns out that in most times and
                                  > places, it wasn't the most common way to refer to a minstrel.

                                  We can assume that it was used to refer to such associations, at least
                                  in English (the language I'm currently writing in) because we have
                                  documents that go back that far that use the word.

                                  Looking at the OED, which for a change goes back further on a
                                  definiton than the MED:

                                  " ?a1000 Abbottsbury Charter in Kemble Cod. Dipl. IV. 279 For(th)an
                                  (th)e we for his lufon (TH)is 3egyld 3egaderodon.
                                  a1109 in Gross Gild Merch. (1890) II. 37 (TH)is beo(th) (TH)a 3ehworfe
                                  betwux (th)an hirede æt Xrescircean and (th)an cnihtan on
                                  Cantwareberig of ceapmanne 3ilde. Se heap on ceapmanne 3ilde let [etc.]. "
                                  and so on.

                                  I am using "guild" in this context, generally, to refer to a social
                                  guild in a fairly accurate medieval sense.

                                  Marc/Diarmaid
                                • Greg Lindahl
                                  ... That s not the question that I m asking. You can t answer the question was it common? by looking in the dictionary under guild . You certainly don t
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 08:26:53PM -0000, Marc Carlson wrote:

                                    > > Right. That's not what I asked, I asked if it was the common way to
                                    > > refer to such things. For example, I avoid the word "bard" like the
                                    > > plague due to SCA overuse, and it turns out that in most times and
                                    > > places, it wasn't the most common way to refer to a minstrel.
                                    >
                                    > We can assume that it was used to refer to such associations, at least
                                    > in English (the language I'm currently writing in) because we have
                                    > documents that go back that far that use the word.

                                    That's not the question that I'm asking. You can't answer the question
                                    "was it common?" by looking in the dictionary under "guild".

                                    You certainly don't have to answer the question at all -- it seems
                                    that it's not something that you care about. That's fine. We all have
                                    different interests.

                                    As another example of why I think this question is interesting, one
                                    Elizabethan re-enactment group I play with is somewhat agonized that
                                    their encampments have too few A-frame tents, compared to woodcuts and
                                    paintings of military encampments of the era.

                                    -- Gregory
                                  • Marc Carlson
                                    ... Clearly I am unable to answer this question to your satisfaction. Therefore I yield the field. Marc/Diarmaid
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Greg Lindahl <lindahl@p...> wrote:
                                      > That's not the question that I'm asking. You can't answer the question
                                      > "was it common?" by looking in the dictionary under "guild".

                                      Clearly I am unable to answer this question to your satisfaction.
                                      Therefore I yield the field.

                                      Marc/Diarmaid
                                    • bronwynmgn@aol.com
                                      In a message dated 9/30/2004 6:06:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        In a message dated 9/30/2004 6:06:36 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                                        Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                        <<Another example of such a pre-existing group is the "Guilded Pearl" in
                                        the East Kingdom:>>

                                        Sorry, the "Gilded (as in "made golden") Pearl" is neither a guild nor a
                                        social group. It's a chartered group of people interested in late period dress
                                        and personas, as I recall properly. It probably most resembles a craft guild,
                                        but with members who do everything from make everything to make one thing well
                                        to know who to buy from :-)

                                        Brangwayna
                                      • Greg Lindahl
                                        ... I didn t mean to imply that it was a guild. From what I ve seen, the members are quite social. -- Gregory
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Thu, Sep 30, 2004 at 07:14:15PM -0400, bronwynmgn@... wrote:

                                          > Sorry, the "Gilded (as in "made golden") Pearl" is neither a guild nor a
                                          > social group.

                                          I didn't mean to imply that it was a guild. From what I've seen, the
                                          members are quite social.

                                          -- Gregory
                                        • katherinejsanders
                                          I just thought I d say THANK YOU to Marc for putting in the time and effort to create the poll and take our circuitous conversations towards a point of
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Sep 30, 2004
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I just thought I'd say THANK YOU to Marc for putting in the time and
                                            effort to create the poll and take our circuitous conversations
                                            towards a point of resolution.

                                            THANK YOU.

                                            Now I have to make up my pesky mind...

                                            Katherine
                                          • Lisa
                                            ... (not unlike the rainbow of ribbons we ... I think the ribbon analogy is apt! Ysabel
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Oct 1, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Carlson" <marccarlson20@h...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Rather than beat my head into a wall in a pointless battle that isn't
                                              > that important, I figured we should just accept that tendancy and find
                                              > our own term(s) rather than have them thoughtlessly appear in the argot.
                                              >
                                              > The options, as I saw them when I made this suggestion, were that we
                                              > go with a medieval guild model. A social guild in this case could
                                              > have membership gained by simply deciding to be a member - no
                                              > leadership or organization (i.e. minimize the opportunity for
                                              > politics) - just a way for people to indicate that they were
                                              > supportive of authenticity

                                              (not unlike the rainbow of ribbons we
                                              > frequently see, but possibly something less, non-historical.

                                              I think the ribbon analogy is apt!

                                              Ysabel
                                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.