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Re: SCA Sumptuary Laws and Customs vs. Authenticity

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  • cschutrick
    ... Well, keep in mind that in both cases, the law/custom specifies unadorned . Neither of your examples is unadorned, so you re all set. And the white belt
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 2, 2004
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      > Red, decorated with woven or embroidered gold and silver
      > thread silk sashes White leather belts with (usually)
      > gold belt-plaques

      > Is it wrong of me to be extremely frustrated that
      > unhistorical SCA customs prevents me from being as
      > authentic as I would like?

      Well, keep in mind that in both cases, the law/custom
      specifies 'unadorned'. Neither of your examples is unadorned, so
      you're all set.

      And the white belt thing isn't *entirely* ahistorical; it's just
      that, like many things we do, it was confined to a limited time and
      place, and wasn't as rigid in implementation as our version. :)

      --Jeannette
    • Despair Bear
      ... I could see some fallout from the use of a white belt but I don t see it happening with the use of a red belt. Squire is not a rank or title, is has no
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 2, 2004
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        > Is it wrong of me to be extremely frustrated that
        > unhistorical SCA customs
        > prevents me from being as authentic as I would like?
        > It's not as though I
        > am swimming in non-SCA venues in which to dress as a
        > Mongol. And while I
        > could "legally" wear a red sash, I'd rather not deal
        > with the flack.


        I could see some fallout from the use of a white belt
        but I don't see it happening with the use of a red
        belt. Squire is not a rank or title, is has no
        official sanction in the SCA it is only a tradition
        held by some. In some parts of the west the red belt
        tradition for squires is being done away with and
        squires are wearing what ever they want.



        Godric Of Castlemont





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      • Maura Folsom
        ... Both of these are decorated. The suptuary laws *and* traditions all specify *undecorated*. I fail to see a problem. Marguerie
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 2, 2004
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa A Barton (S)"
          <m_barton@c...> wrote:

          > Red, decorated with woven or embroidered gold and silver thread silk
          > sashes
          > White leather belts with (usually) gold belt-plaques

          Both of these are decorated. The suptuary laws *and* traditions all
          specify *undecorated*. I fail to see a problem.

          Marguerie
        • Katherine Throckmorton
          ... From: Maura Folsom Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:47:45 -0000 To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: SCA Sumptuary Laws and Customs
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 2, 2004
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Maura Folsom"
            Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:47:45 -0000
            To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: SCA Sumptuary Laws and Customs vs. Authenticity

            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa A Barton (S)"
            <m_barton@c...> wrote:

            > >Red, decorated with woven or embroidered gold and silver thread silk
            > >sashes
            > >White leather belts with (usually) gold belt-plaques

            >Both of these are decorated. The suptuary laws *and* traditions all
            >specify *undecorated*. I fail to see a problem.

            The problem is that in some Kingdoms (for example Atenveldt) peers, and to some degree the community as a whole, are very strict about guarding against *any* infrigement on the regelia of peers, especially, it seems the regelia of of knights. And over the past several years, it has become the fashion among knights to wear decorated belts. Ironically enough, this fashion is mainly seen among those knights who are most interested in authenticity. This creates a social situation where white belts of any kind, wether decorated or not are not really considered socially acceptable.

            Things may be quite different in different kingdoms, so I suspect that wether or not the Mongol with the delimma can "get away" with a decoracted white belt depends a great deal on their kingdom. I will say though, that even in Atenveldt, where things are pretty strict, a decorated red sash dosen't have a problem.

            my two pence,
            Katherine
            who vaugely remembers that years ago there was a double peer iirc a Laurel/Pelican who posted on the Rialto that if anyone hassled you for wearing a yellow or green belt you were welcome to say he was your Master, and thinks that a Knight made a similar offer.
            Arguing with a herald is like wrestling with a pig. First you get really dirty and muddy, and then, after a while, you begin to realize the pig is enjoying himself.                                                                                                                     -Sliverwing's 54th Law of SCA Dynamics                                  
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          • bronwynmgn@aol.com
            In a message dated 9/2/2004 5:14:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 3, 2004
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              In a message dated 9/2/2004 5:14:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com writes:

              <<I'm not sure. My impression is that the sashes are primarily red, and
              I've noticed non-European persona knights and squires wearing sashes
              before;>>

              If I remember corectly, you were discussing a sash worn aroun the waist
              instead of a belt, rather than a shoulder to hip sash. I'll assume so from here on
              out.

              << I'm currently less concerned with the letter of the law (or
              custom) and more with how people will perceive it. My impression is that
              most people see "red thingy around waist" and think "squire", but this may
              not be true.>>

              While most people may see it that way, in most kingdoms red for a squire's
              belt is not a matter of law, but only of custom, whereas the white belt for
              knights is reserved by Society law. There are some areas, parts of Atlantia for
              examples, where squire's belts are sometimes blue due to the influence of a
              particular household that uses that.

              That said, if you don't make it actually scarlet, there shouldn't be a
              problem. I've been wearing a thin belt of a red-brown shade for quite a few years.
              The merchant who sold it to me cautioned me that some might mistake it for a
              squire's belt, but I've only had one or two people even ask me.

              If it's only custom, not law, and it goes against authenticity, I say go
              ahead and be authentic, just be prepared to explain to people why you are wearing
              what you are wearing and why it's not "against the rules".

              Brangwayna
            • Willie Walter
              ... For awhile, I thought that apprentices belts were typically blue, thanks to a friend who is apprenticed to the matriarch of that same household. (At
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 3, 2004
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                --- bronwynmgn@... wrote:
                > While most people may see it that way, in most
                > kingdoms red for a squire's
                > belt is not a matter of law, but only of custom,
                > whereas the white belt for
                > knights is reserved by Society law. There are some
                > areas, parts of Atlantia for
                > examples, where squire's belts are sometimes blue
                > due to the influence of a
                > particular household that uses that.

                For awhile, I thought that apprentices' belts were
                typically blue, thanks to a friend who is apprenticed
                to the matriarch of that same household. (At least,
                I'm guessing it's the same household.) It made sense
                to me at the time: "Her apprentice belt is blue.
                Therefore, most-if-not-all apprentice belts--at least
                in Atlantia--are blue." :) My friend corrected my
                faulty assumption, telling me it's a household custom.


                Peace,
                Grainne ingen Lugdach
                Shire of Roxbury Mill
                Atlantia



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              • Heather Murray
                ... ceramic figurine of a Siamese in a bowl before it:: Now, he s in south central Meridies, so if you happen to be in North Meridies without him nearby, you
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 3, 2004
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                  cathal@... wrote:

                  > I honestly think you're safe with the sash.
                  > Anybody bugs you you just refer them to me.
                  >
                  > Capt Elias
                  >
                  >
                  > Or if you're down Meridies-way just refer them over to me.
                  > I enjoy the application of the occasional come-uppance especially
                  > if sumptuary laws appear in the argument...
                  >
                  > Cathal.


                  ::Margaret pays obeisance to the visage of Cathal, and lays a small
                  ceramic figurine of a Siamese in a bowl before it::

                  Now, he's in south central Meridies, so if you happen to be in North
                  Meridies without him nearby, you send 'em my way. I'm not as gentle as
                  some ladies when it comes to suffering the willingly ignorant, though I
                  have some sympathetic understanding of the socially inept. I'll be happy
                  to tell them my own story and viewpoint and then endeavor to show them
                  the period way to apologize.

                  Look, the fact of the matter is, the rules say what they say. If someone
                  wants to get offended by something outside the realm of those rules,
                  they will do so whether or not the facts of history back you up. In the
                  end the best path for your authenticity may be to work to change your
                  Kingdom's/Principality's/local area's viewpoint to understand that this
                  is period and doesn't violate the sumptuary laws - that it's just a
                  custom that arose from what could be some poor drunk fool's
                  interpretation of those laws to a newbie who stayed around and still
                  spouts it as Gospel. The SCA is young enough that some customs are still
                  ugly enough to need their faces changed every once in a while. You might
                  butt heads a bit with some folks, outside of those who might balk at
                  first, but then move on. With those who *must* argue about it and insist
                  on their ways (while not wearing a crown), just part ways knowing that
                  you're both right, and likely, you're both wrong as well, on some level
                  and in the other's opinion. Eventually, people will either A) accept
                  your "new" tradition, or B) decide that you're just a weirdo who insists
                  on following the law to the letter and applying your "creativeness" to
                  the "anachronism." Well, there's C), but C) can be appealed.

                  Grinning wryly,
                  Margaret Northwode
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