RE: [Authentic_SCA] SCA Sumptuary Laws and Customs vs. Authenticity
>I'm not sure. My impression is that the sashes are primarily red, andI've seen a lot of people wearing sashes of various colors (not squires), including red, and only a few people have complained about being misjudged, and those say only a few times have they been intervened by an evidently thorogoing chowderhead.
>I've noticed non-European persona knights and squires wearing sashes
>before; I'm currently less concerned with the letter of the law (or
>custom) and more with how people will perceive it. My impression is that
>most people see "red thingy around waist" and think "squire", but this may
>not be true.
Now as for that there is a tradition in some Kingdoms that the highly placed fencing types get white scarves they wear around the shoulder, and they give, strangly enough, red scarves to their students, but this is NOT a sash around the waist.
be that asa it may, you can't avoid utter dunderheads in any organization, but I think that except for certain kingdoms where everything is spelled out to the Nth degree, you will be pretty safe with a red sash, especially if it is worked with metallic threads.
You may run into a rare "stiffnecked booby" who has recieved wisdom he needs to impart, but most everybody will will rock and roll with the sash, and not think, "Ack! Pretense! Uncleeeean!"
but yiou have to judge for yourself. I dont think you have anything to care about, you wont get kicked out or shunned for wearing a red sash in any Kingdom, nor will have a problem if you just politely say, no I am not a squire, this is what a Mongol form this place and then would have worn, wanna see my documetation.
I have heard of a young lady who sometimes wears a white belt as a "symbol of maidenly chastity" (which it really is) and carries a photocopy of the painting she got the outfit from to show the occasional querent, and nobody bugs her or drags her up in front of a court to denounce her.
I honestly think you're safe with the sash.
Anybody bugs you you just refer them to me.
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather
wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them
to yearn for the vast and endless sea.
- Antoine de Saint Exupery
- I honestly think you're safe with the sash.
Anybody bugs you you just refer them to me.
Or if you're down Meridies-way just refer them over to me.
I enjoy the application of the occasional come-uppance especially
if sumptuary laws appear in the argument...
> Red, decorated with woven or embroidered gold and silverWell, keep in mind that in both cases, the law/custom
> thread silk sashes White leather belts with (usually)
> gold belt-plaques
> Is it wrong of me to be extremely frustrated that
> unhistorical SCA customs prevents me from being as
> authentic as I would like?
specifies 'unadorned'. Neither of your examples is unadorned, so
you're all set.
And the white belt thing isn't *entirely* ahistorical; it's just
that, like many things we do, it was confined to a limited time and
place, and wasn't as rigid in implementation as our version. :)
> Is it wrong of me to be extremely frustrated thatI could see some fallout from the use of a white belt
> unhistorical SCA customs
> prevents me from being as authentic as I would like?
> It's not as though I
> am swimming in non-SCA venues in which to dress as a
> Mongol. And while I
> could "legally" wear a red sash, I'd rather not deal
> with the flack.
but I don't see it happening with the use of a red
belt. Squire is not a rank or title, is has no
official sanction in the SCA it is only a tradition
held by some. In some parts of the west the red belt
tradition for squires is being done away with and
squires are wearing what ever they want.
Godric Of Castlemont
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- --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa A Barton (S)"
> Red, decorated with woven or embroidered gold and silver thread silkBoth of these are decorated. The suptuary laws *and* traditions all
> White leather belts with (usually) gold belt-plaques
specify *undecorated*. I fail to see a problem.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Maura Folsom"
Date: Thu, 02 Sep 2004 20:47:45 -0000
Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: SCA Sumptuary Laws and Customs vs. Authenticity
--- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Melissa A Barton (S)"
> >Red, decorated with woven or embroidered gold and silver thread silk
> >White leather belts with (usually) gold belt-plaques
>Both of these are decorated. The suptuary laws *and* traditions all
>specify *undecorated*. I fail to see a problem.
The problem is that in some Kingdoms (for example Atenveldt) peers, and to some degree the community as a whole, are very strict about guarding against *any* infrigement on the regelia of peers, especially, it seems the regelia of of knights. And over the past several years, it has become the fashion among knights to wear decorated belts. Ironically enough, this fashion is mainly seen among those knights who are most interested in authenticity. This creates a social situation where white belts of any kind, wether decorated or not are not really considered socially acceptable.
Things may be quite different in different kingdoms, so I suspect that wether or not the Mongol with the delimma can "get away" with a decoracted white belt depends a great deal on their kingdom. I will say though, that even in Atenveldt, where things are pretty strict, a decorated red sash dosen't have a problem.
my two pence,
who vaugely remembers that years ago there was a double peer iirc a Laurel/Pelican who posted on the Rialto that if anyone hassled you for wearing a yellow or green belt you were welcome to say he was your Master, and thinks that a Knight made a similar offer.
Arguing with a herald is like wrestling with a pig. First you get really dirty and muddy, and then, after a while, you begin to realize the pig is enjoying himself. -Sliverwing's 54th Law of SCA Dynamics
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- In a message dated 9/2/2004 5:14:53 PM Eastern Standard Time,
<<I'm not sure. My impression is that the sashes are primarily red, and
I've noticed non-European persona knights and squires wearing sashes
If I remember corectly, you were discussing a sash worn aroun the waist
instead of a belt, rather than a shoulder to hip sash. I'll assume so from here on
<< I'm currently less concerned with the letter of the law (or
custom) and more with how people will perceive it. My impression is that
most people see "red thingy around waist" and think "squire", but this may
not be true.>>
While most people may see it that way, in most kingdoms red for a squire's
belt is not a matter of law, but only of custom, whereas the white belt for
knights is reserved by Society law. There are some areas, parts of Atlantia for
examples, where squire's belts are sometimes blue due to the influence of a
particular household that uses that.
That said, if you don't make it actually scarlet, there shouldn't be a
problem. I've been wearing a thin belt of a red-brown shade for quite a few years.
The merchant who sold it to me cautioned me that some might mistake it for a
squire's belt, but I've only had one or two people even ask me.
If it's only custom, not law, and it goes against authenticity, I say go
ahead and be authentic, just be prepared to explain to people why you are wearing
what you are wearing and why it's not "against the rules".
- --- bronwynmgn@... wrote:
> While most people may see it that way, in mostFor awhile, I thought that apprentices' belts were
> kingdoms red for a squire's
> belt is not a matter of law, but only of custom,
> whereas the white belt for
> knights is reserved by Society law. There are some
> areas, parts of Atlantia for
> examples, where squire's belts are sometimes blue
> due to the influence of a
> particular household that uses that.
typically blue, thanks to a friend who is apprenticed
to the matriarch of that same household. (At least,
I'm guessing it's the same household.) It made sense
to me at the time: "Her apprentice belt is blue.
Therefore, most-if-not-all apprentice belts--at least
in Atlantia--are blue." :) My friend corrected my
faulty assumption, telling me it's a household custom.
Grainne ingen Lugdach
Shire of Roxbury Mill
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- cathal@... wrote:
> I honestly think you're safe with the sash.::Margaret pays obeisance to the visage of Cathal, and lays a small
> Anybody bugs you you just refer them to me.
> Capt Elias
> Or if you're down Meridies-way just refer them over to me.
> I enjoy the application of the occasional come-uppance especially
> if sumptuary laws appear in the argument...
ceramic figurine of a Siamese in a bowl before it::
Now, he's in south central Meridies, so if you happen to be in North
Meridies without him nearby, you send 'em my way. I'm not as gentle as
some ladies when it comes to suffering the willingly ignorant, though I
have some sympathetic understanding of the socially inept. I'll be happy
to tell them my own story and viewpoint and then endeavor to show them
the period way to apologize.
Look, the fact of the matter is, the rules say what they say. If someone
wants to get offended by something outside the realm of those rules,
they will do so whether or not the facts of history back you up. In the
end the best path for your authenticity may be to work to change your
Kingdom's/Principality's/local area's viewpoint to understand that this
is period and doesn't violate the sumptuary laws - that it's just a
custom that arose from what could be some poor drunk fool's
interpretation of those laws to a newbie who stayed around and still
spouts it as Gospel. The SCA is young enough that some customs are still
ugly enough to need their faces changed every once in a while. You might
butt heads a bit with some folks, outside of those who might balk at
first, but then move on. With those who *must* argue about it and insist
on their ways (while not wearing a crown), just part ways knowing that
you're both right, and likely, you're both wrong as well, on some level
and in the other's opinion. Eventually, people will either A) accept
your "new" tradition, or B) decide that you're just a weirdo who insists
on following the law to the letter and applying your "creativeness" to
the "anachronism." Well, there's C), but C) can be appealed.