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Re: Moorish Tunic (was: linings)

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  • dona_violante
    ... to ... ON SECOND THOUGHT I will just post the picture. The documentation is a couple of years old, and quite frankly not up to my current standards...
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "dona_violante"
      <dona_violante@c...> wrote:
      >
      > > pictures?
      >
      > I will upload my documentation for a reconstruction of the tunic
      to
      > the Files section. The picture is on page two. It's the back of
      > the garment, but that's OK b/c you can still see how it is cut.

      ON SECOND THOUGHT I will just post the picture. The documentation
      is a couple of years old, and quite frankly not up to my current
      standards...

      Cheers,
      Violante
    • Heather Rose Jones
      ... Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description Moorish , given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical vestments (which it is by
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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        At 2:43 PM +0000 9/1/04, dona_violante wrote:
        > > Citation? I don't have anything resembling this in my database
        >currently.
        >
        >I've found two sources which talk about this tunic:
        >
        >Dodds, Jerrilynn D., ed. _al-Andalus : the art of Islamic Spain_.
        >New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1992. The tunic is catalog
        >no. 94. The view is from the back, b/c the front was very
        >deteriorated.
        >
        >Flury-Lemberg, M. _Textile Conservation and Research_ (1988) has
        >some very nice close ups, and a schematic of the whole tunic in the
        >back of the book.

        Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
        "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
        vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).

        Tangwystyl
        --
        ****
        Heather Rose Jones
        heather.jones@...
        ****
      • dona_violante
        ... Dodds asserts that the tunic is of wholly Muslim manufacture , though I don t know what she s basing that on. I do know, however, that when I make tunics
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 2, 2004
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          > Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
          > "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
          > vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).

          Dodds asserts that the tunic is of "wholly Muslim manufacture",
          though I don't know what she's basing that on. I do know, however,
          that when I make tunics for myself based on the same proportions and
          cut, I end up with a garment which looks remarkably like the
          miniatures from the 13th century. For instance, the brocaded card
          weaving on the shoulder seams actually falls at the upper arm - the
          exact same place where tiraz are shown in the Bayad wa Riyad, the
          Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the Book of Games.

          Cheers,
          Violante
        • Heather Rose Jones
          ... It s possible that she s referring specifically to the fabric, rather than necessarily to the cut and decoration styles. (I m all too familiar with
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 3, 2004
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            At 12:00 PM +0000 9/2/04, dona_violante wrote:
            > > Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
            >> "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
            >> vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).
            >
            >Dodds asserts that the tunic is of "wholly Muslim manufacture",
            >though I don't know what she's basing that on.


            It's possible that she's referring specifically to the fabric, rather
            than necessarily to the cut and decoration styles. (I'm all too
            familiar with scholars who are only interested in the textiles and
            now in what was _made_ with them.)


            > I do know, however,
            >that when I make tunics for myself based on the same proportions and
            >cut, I end up with a garment which looks remarkably like the
            >miniatures from the 13th century. For instance, the brocaded card
            >weaving on the shoulder seams actually falls at the upper arm - the
            >exact same place where tiraz are shown in the Bayad wa Riyad, the
            >Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the Book of Games.

            The overall cut style is extremely similar to a number of 13th c.
            albs from various locations in western Europe, most in linen, but
            some in silk like this one. The placement of the decorative bands on
            the shoulder seams is quite typical of ecclesiastic garments of this
            era (and echoes decorative clavii of an earlier period). The use of
            a wide decorative panel that only covers the central portion of the
            garment (and is missing at the sides) is also quite typical of ca.
            13th c. albs. The one aspect of the cut that is more reminiscent of
            Middle Eastern influences is the way the side panels attach partially
            to the sleeve (or, to put it another way, having the sleeves extend
            in to the central panel, while the the top of the side gussets
            extends out horizontally to form the sleeve setting, rather than
            being much more tapered at the top). I'm explaining this badly, I'm
            afraid. This aspect of the cut isn't _definitively_ Middle Eastern,
            but it's the one feature of the construction that reaches in that
            direction.

            After I finish polishing up the fabric socks article, I really need
            to get around to the project of analyzing the corpus of 13th c. albs
            and similar garments.

            Tangwystyl
            --
            ****
            Heather Rose Jones
            heather.jones@...
            ****
          • dona_violante
            ... partially ... extend ... I m ... I do understand what you re talking about; the other albs I ve seen, those side gores end just below the sleeves, rather
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 8, 2004
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              > The one aspect of the cut that is more reminiscent of
              > Middle Eastern influences is the way the side panels attach
              partially
              > to the sleeve (or, to put it another way, having the sleeves
              extend
              > in to the central panel, while the the top of the side gussets
              > extends out horizontally to form the sleeve setting, rather than
              > being much more tapered at the top). I'm explaining this badly,
              I'm
              > afraid.

              I do understand what you're talking about; the other albs I've seen,
              those side gores end just below the sleeves, rather than attaching
              to the sleeves the way this one does.

              There is a strong similarity between Moorish garments and
              ecclesiastical garments in miniatures as well. Looking at the
              miniatures in the Cantigas de Santa Maria, I was amazed at the
              extent to which they looked alike, including fabric patterns/colors
              (in as much as you can tell, anyway), overall cut, and placement of
              the (often golden) decoration at the neck and sleeves. There are
              some details which are different; the eccl. garments are frequently
              shorter, with short side slits, under which another white gown is
              visible.

              Anyway, my current guess is that in this particular case, the
              garment *was* made by Moorish hands, and then was adapted (narrowed
              sleeves and that panel at the center back) to make it more
              appropriate for ecclesiastical use.

              The world may never know!

              Cheers,
              Violante
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