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Moorish Tunic (was: linings)

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  • dona_violante
    ... I will upload my documentation for a reconstruction of the tunic to the Files section. The picture is on page two. It s the back of the garment, but
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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      > pictures?

      I will upload my documentation for a reconstruction of the tunic to
      the Files section. The picture is on page two. It's the back of
      the garment, but that's OK b/c you can still see how it is cut.

      Cheers,
      Violante
    • dona_violante
      ... currently. I ve found two sources which talk about this tunic: Dodds, Jerrilynn D., ed. _al-Andalus : the art of Islamic Spain_. New York: Metropolitan
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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        > Citation? I don't have anything resembling this in my database
        currently.

        I've found two sources which talk about this tunic:

        Dodds, Jerrilynn D., ed. _al-Andalus : the art of Islamic Spain_.
        New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1992. The tunic is catalog
        no. 94. The view is from the back, b/c the front was very
        deteriorated.

        Flury-Lemberg, M. _Textile Conservation and Research_ (1988) has
        some very nice close ups, and a schematic of the whole tunic in the
        back of the book.

        Hope this helps!
        Violante
      • dona_violante
        ... to ... ON SECOND THOUGHT I will just post the picture. The documentation is a couple of years old, and quite frankly not up to my current standards...
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "dona_violante"
          <dona_violante@c...> wrote:
          >
          > > pictures?
          >
          > I will upload my documentation for a reconstruction of the tunic
          to
          > the Files section. The picture is on page two. It's the back of
          > the garment, but that's OK b/c you can still see how it is cut.

          ON SECOND THOUGHT I will just post the picture. The documentation
          is a couple of years old, and quite frankly not up to my current
          standards...

          Cheers,
          Violante
        • Heather Rose Jones
          ... Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description Moorish , given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical vestments (which it is by
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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            At 2:43 PM +0000 9/1/04, dona_violante wrote:
            > > Citation? I don't have anything resembling this in my database
            >currently.
            >
            >I've found two sources which talk about this tunic:
            >
            >Dodds, Jerrilynn D., ed. _al-Andalus : the art of Islamic Spain_.
            >New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1992. The tunic is catalog
            >no. 94. The view is from the back, b/c the front was very
            >deteriorated.
            >
            >Flury-Lemberg, M. _Textile Conservation and Research_ (1988) has
            >some very nice close ups, and a schematic of the whole tunic in the
            >back of the book.

            Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
            "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
            vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).

            Tangwystyl
            --
            ****
            Heather Rose Jones
            heather.jones@...
            ****
          • dona_violante
            ... Dodds asserts that the tunic is of wholly Muslim manufacture , though I don t know what she s basing that on. I do know, however, that when I make tunics
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 2, 2004
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              > Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
              > "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
              > vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).

              Dodds asserts that the tunic is of "wholly Muslim manufacture",
              though I don't know what she's basing that on. I do know, however,
              that when I make tunics for myself based on the same proportions and
              cut, I end up with a garment which looks remarkably like the
              miniatures from the 13th century. For instance, the brocaded card
              weaving on the shoulder seams actually falls at the upper arm - the
              exact same place where tiraz are shown in the Bayad wa Riyad, the
              Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the Book of Games.

              Cheers,
              Violante
            • Heather Rose Jones
              ... It s possible that she s referring specifically to the fabric, rather than necessarily to the cut and decoration styles. (I m all too familiar with
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 3, 2004
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                At 12:00 PM +0000 9/2/04, dona_violante wrote:
                > > Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
                >> "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
                >> vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).
                >
                >Dodds asserts that the tunic is of "wholly Muslim manufacture",
                >though I don't know what she's basing that on.


                It's possible that she's referring specifically to the fabric, rather
                than necessarily to the cut and decoration styles. (I'm all too
                familiar with scholars who are only interested in the textiles and
                now in what was _made_ with them.)


                > I do know, however,
                >that when I make tunics for myself based on the same proportions and
                >cut, I end up with a garment which looks remarkably like the
                >miniatures from the 13th century. For instance, the brocaded card
                >weaving on the shoulder seams actually falls at the upper arm - the
                >exact same place where tiraz are shown in the Bayad wa Riyad, the
                >Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the Book of Games.

                The overall cut style is extremely similar to a number of 13th c.
                albs from various locations in western Europe, most in linen, but
                some in silk like this one. The placement of the decorative bands on
                the shoulder seams is quite typical of ecclesiastic garments of this
                era (and echoes decorative clavii of an earlier period). The use of
                a wide decorative panel that only covers the central portion of the
                garment (and is missing at the sides) is also quite typical of ca.
                13th c. albs. The one aspect of the cut that is more reminiscent of
                Middle Eastern influences is the way the side panels attach partially
                to the sleeve (or, to put it another way, having the sleeves extend
                in to the central panel, while the the top of the side gussets
                extends out horizontally to form the sleeve setting, rather than
                being much more tapered at the top). I'm explaining this badly, I'm
                afraid. This aspect of the cut isn't _definitively_ Middle Eastern,
                but it's the one feature of the construction that reaches in that
                direction.

                After I finish polishing up the fabric socks article, I really need
                to get around to the project of analyzing the corpus of 13th c. albs
                and similar garments.

                Tangwystyl
                --
                ****
                Heather Rose Jones
                heather.jones@...
                ****
              • dona_violante
                ... partially ... extend ... I m ... I do understand what you re talking about; the other albs I ve seen, those side gores end just below the sleeves, rather
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 8, 2004
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                  > The one aspect of the cut that is more reminiscent of
                  > Middle Eastern influences is the way the side panels attach
                  partially
                  > to the sleeve (or, to put it another way, having the sleeves
                  extend
                  > in to the central panel, while the the top of the side gussets
                  > extends out horizontally to form the sleeve setting, rather than
                  > being much more tapered at the top). I'm explaining this badly,
                  I'm
                  > afraid.

                  I do understand what you're talking about; the other albs I've seen,
                  those side gores end just below the sleeves, rather than attaching
                  to the sleeves the way this one does.

                  There is a strong similarity between Moorish garments and
                  ecclesiastical garments in miniatures as well. Looking at the
                  miniatures in the Cantigas de Santa Maria, I was amazed at the
                  extent to which they looked alike, including fabric patterns/colors
                  (in as much as you can tell, anyway), overall cut, and placement of
                  the (often golden) decoration at the neck and sleeves. There are
                  some details which are different; the eccl. garments are frequently
                  shorter, with short side slits, under which another white gown is
                  visible.

                  Anyway, my current guess is that in this particular case, the
                  garment *was* made by Moorish hands, and then was adapted (narrowed
                  sleeves and that panel at the center back) to make it more
                  appropriate for ecclesiastical use.

                  The world may never know!

                  Cheers,
                  Violante
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