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Re: [Authentic_SCA] linings (was: Digest Number 2590)

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  • Heather Rose Jones
    ... **ears perk up** Citation? I don t have anything resembling this in my database currently. Tangwystyl -- **** Heather Rose Jones
    Message 1 of 14 , Aug 31, 2004
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      At 1:34 PM +0000 8/31/04, dona_violante wrote:

      >Moorish tunic surviving from the 13th century was lined with red

      **ears perk up**

      Citation? I don't have anything resembling this in my database currently.

      Tangwystyl
      --
      ****
      Heather Rose Jones
      heather.jones@...
      ****
    • Michael
      pictures? Mareck There are only two infinite things: The Universe, and Human Stupidity. But I m not too sure about the former. ... From: Heather Rose Jones
      Message 2 of 14 , Aug 31, 2004
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        pictures?

        Mareck

        "There are only two infinite things: The Universe, and Human Stupidity.
        But I'm not too sure about the former."
        ---Albert Einstein.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Heather Rose Jones" <heather.jones@...>
        To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 11:46 PM
        Subject: Re: [Authentic_SCA] linings (was: Digest Number 2590)


        > At 1:34 PM +0000 8/31/04, dona_violante wrote:
        >
        > >Moorish tunic surviving from the 13th century was lined with red
        >
        > **ears perk up**
        >
        > Citation? I don't have anything resembling this in my database currently.
        >
        > Tangwystyl
        > --
        > ****
        > Heather Rose Jones
        > heather.jones@...
        > ****
        >
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------
        > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • dona_violante
        ... I will upload my documentation for a reconstruction of the tunic to the Files section. The picture is on page two. It s the back of the garment, but
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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          > pictures?

          I will upload my documentation for a reconstruction of the tunic to
          the Files section. The picture is on page two. It's the back of
          the garment, but that's OK b/c you can still see how it is cut.

          Cheers,
          Violante
        • dona_violante
          ... currently. I ve found two sources which talk about this tunic: Dodds, Jerrilynn D., ed. _al-Andalus : the art of Islamic Spain_. New York: Metropolitan
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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            > Citation? I don't have anything resembling this in my database
            currently.

            I've found two sources which talk about this tunic:

            Dodds, Jerrilynn D., ed. _al-Andalus : the art of Islamic Spain_.
            New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1992. The tunic is catalog
            no. 94. The view is from the back, b/c the front was very
            deteriorated.

            Flury-Lemberg, M. _Textile Conservation and Research_ (1988) has
            some very nice close ups, and a schematic of the whole tunic in the
            back of the book.

            Hope this helps!
            Violante
          • dona_violante
            ... to ... ON SECOND THOUGHT I will just post the picture. The documentation is a couple of years old, and quite frankly not up to my current standards...
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "dona_violante"
              <dona_violante@c...> wrote:
              >
              > > pictures?
              >
              > I will upload my documentation for a reconstruction of the tunic
              to
              > the Files section. The picture is on page two. It's the back of
              > the garment, but that's OK b/c you can still see how it is cut.

              ON SECOND THOUGHT I will just post the picture. The documentation
              is a couple of years old, and quite frankly not up to my current
              standards...

              Cheers,
              Violante
            • Heather Rose Jones
              ... Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description Moorish , given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical vestments (which it is by
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 1, 2004
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                At 2:43 PM +0000 9/1/04, dona_violante wrote:
                > > Citation? I don't have anything resembling this in my database
                >currently.
                >
                >I've found two sources which talk about this tunic:
                >
                >Dodds, Jerrilynn D., ed. _al-Andalus : the art of Islamic Spain_.
                >New York: Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1992. The tunic is catalog
                >no. 94. The view is from the back, b/c the front was very
                >deteriorated.
                >
                >Flury-Lemberg, M. _Textile Conservation and Research_ (1988) has
                >some very nice close ups, and a schematic of the whole tunic in the
                >back of the book.

                Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
                "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
                vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).

                Tangwystyl
                --
                ****
                Heather Rose Jones
                heather.jones@...
                ****
              • dona_violante
                ... Dodds asserts that the tunic is of wholly Muslim manufacture , though I don t know what she s basing that on. I do know, however, that when I make tunics
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 2, 2004
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                  > Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
                  > "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
                  > vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).

                  Dodds asserts that the tunic is of "wholly Muslim manufacture",
                  though I don't know what she's basing that on. I do know, however,
                  that when I make tunics for myself based on the same proportions and
                  cut, I end up with a garment which looks remarkably like the
                  miniatures from the 13th century. For instance, the brocaded card
                  weaving on the shoulder seams actually falls at the upper arm - the
                  exact same place where tiraz are shown in the Bayad wa Riyad, the
                  Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the Book of Games.

                  Cheers,
                  Violante
                • Heather Rose Jones
                  ... It s possible that she s referring specifically to the fabric, rather than necessarily to the cut and decoration styles. (I m all too familiar with
                  Message 8 of 14 , Sep 3, 2004
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                    At 12:00 PM +0000 9/2/04, dona_violante wrote:
                    > > Ah, I do have this one. I was just confused by the description
                    >> "Moorish", given that I have it cataloged among ecclesiastical
                    >> vestments (which it is by function, and to some extent by design).
                    >
                    >Dodds asserts that the tunic is of "wholly Muslim manufacture",
                    >though I don't know what she's basing that on.


                    It's possible that she's referring specifically to the fabric, rather
                    than necessarily to the cut and decoration styles. (I'm all too
                    familiar with scholars who are only interested in the textiles and
                    now in what was _made_ with them.)


                    > I do know, however,
                    >that when I make tunics for myself based on the same proportions and
                    >cut, I end up with a garment which looks remarkably like the
                    >miniatures from the 13th century. For instance, the brocaded card
                    >weaving on the shoulder seams actually falls at the upper arm - the
                    >exact same place where tiraz are shown in the Bayad wa Riyad, the
                    >Cantigas de Santa Maria, and the Book of Games.

                    The overall cut style is extremely similar to a number of 13th c.
                    albs from various locations in western Europe, most in linen, but
                    some in silk like this one. The placement of the decorative bands on
                    the shoulder seams is quite typical of ecclesiastic garments of this
                    era (and echoes decorative clavii of an earlier period). The use of
                    a wide decorative panel that only covers the central portion of the
                    garment (and is missing at the sides) is also quite typical of ca.
                    13th c. albs. The one aspect of the cut that is more reminiscent of
                    Middle Eastern influences is the way the side panels attach partially
                    to the sleeve (or, to put it another way, having the sleeves extend
                    in to the central panel, while the the top of the side gussets
                    extends out horizontally to form the sleeve setting, rather than
                    being much more tapered at the top). I'm explaining this badly, I'm
                    afraid. This aspect of the cut isn't _definitively_ Middle Eastern,
                    but it's the one feature of the construction that reaches in that
                    direction.

                    After I finish polishing up the fabric socks article, I really need
                    to get around to the project of analyzing the corpus of 13th c. albs
                    and similar garments.

                    Tangwystyl
                    --
                    ****
                    Heather Rose Jones
                    heather.jones@...
                    ****
                  • dona_violante
                    ... partially ... extend ... I m ... I do understand what you re talking about; the other albs I ve seen, those side gores end just below the sleeves, rather
                    Message 9 of 14 , Sep 8, 2004
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                      > The one aspect of the cut that is more reminiscent of
                      > Middle Eastern influences is the way the side panels attach
                      partially
                      > to the sleeve (or, to put it another way, having the sleeves
                      extend
                      > in to the central panel, while the the top of the side gussets
                      > extends out horizontally to form the sleeve setting, rather than
                      > being much more tapered at the top). I'm explaining this badly,
                      I'm
                      > afraid.

                      I do understand what you're talking about; the other albs I've seen,
                      those side gores end just below the sleeves, rather than attaching
                      to the sleeves the way this one does.

                      There is a strong similarity between Moorish garments and
                      ecclesiastical garments in miniatures as well. Looking at the
                      miniatures in the Cantigas de Santa Maria, I was amazed at the
                      extent to which they looked alike, including fabric patterns/colors
                      (in as much as you can tell, anyway), overall cut, and placement of
                      the (often golden) decoration at the neck and sleeves. There are
                      some details which are different; the eccl. garments are frequently
                      shorter, with short side slits, under which another white gown is
                      visible.

                      Anyway, my current guess is that in this particular case, the
                      garment *was* made by Moorish hands, and then was adapted (narrowed
                      sleeves and that panel at the center back) to make it more
                      appropriate for ecclesiastical use.

                      The world may never know!

                      Cheers,
                      Violante
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