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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Hips and bums and not looking modern

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  • Elizabeth Walpole
    ... I know there s at least one very late period woodcut of women being fitted with what look like bumrolls and the best explanation I ve heard is that
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 29 10:18 PM
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      <snip>
      > Anyone on bumrolls? Ever seen them documented by someone other than
      > Savoy and Winter?
      >
      > Kass
      > asking the hard ones today...

      I know there's at least one very late period woodcut of women being fitted
      with what look like bumrolls and the best explanation I've heard is that it
      was an attempt to get the wheel farthingale look without the hoops (which
      should just about fit it into your time period) but as to the typical SCAism
      of wearing a bumroll and a Spanish farthingale is undocumentable. It's
      amazing how it throws off the silhouette, I looked at a garb diary of
      somebody who had made a Tudor gown (1540s IIRC) she used the Simplicity
      Shakespeare in Love pattern and the way the bumroll created a shelf a few
      inches below her waist just ruined the look.
      Elizabeth
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
      ----
      Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole
      Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia
      ewalpole@...
    • bex_1014
      There s some interesting thoughts on bumrolls and wheel farthingales on this site: http://www.netherton.net/robin/index.html Hope you like it. Rebecca ... than
      Message 2 of 23 , Aug 1, 2004
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        There's some interesting thoughts on bumrolls and wheel farthingales
        on this site:
        http://www.netherton.net/robin/index.html
        Hope you like it.
        Rebecca


        > <snip>
        > > Anyone on bumrolls? Ever seen them documented by someone other
        than
        > > Savoy and Winter?
        > >
        > > Kass
        > > asking the hard ones today...
        >
      • xina007eu
        ... wrote: ... than ... Do you mean whether bumrolls as such are documented, or whether they are documented for a specific decade? Cunnington/Willett
        Message 3 of 23 , Aug 2, 2004
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...>
          wrote:
          <snip>
          > Anyone on bumrolls? Ever seen them documented by someone other
          than
          > Savoy and Winter?
          >
          > Kass
          > asking the hard ones today...
          >

          Do you mean whether bumrolls as such are documented, or whether they
          are documented for a specific decade?
          Cunnington/Willett quote from inventries where padded rolls are
          mentioned. The specific word "bumroll" occurs in "Women beware Women"
          (1611) by Middleton and also in a Ben Jonson play, also from around
          1600.
          If you look at the old Académie Française dictionaries
          (http://dictionnaires.atilf.fr/dictionnaires/onelook.htm), you will
          see that it describes a farthingale ("vertugadin") as a padded roll:
          "VERTUGADIN. s.m. (Page 928)
          VERTUGADIN. s.m. Gros & large bourrelet que les Dames avoient
          accoutumé de porter au-dessous de leur corps de robe. On ne porte
          plus de vertugadins. Cela étoit bon du temps qu'on portoit des
          vertugadins."
          Granted, these dictionaries were compiled some time after the objects
          in question were in fashion, as the text makes clear, but that
          doesn't necessarily mean the description is incorrect or made up.

          Best regards,

          Christina
        • Kass McGann
          ... they ... ... objects ... Thank you for the documentation for the term, Christina, but I meant is there proof that bumrolls as
          Message 4 of 23 , Aug 2, 2004
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            --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "xina007eu"
            <Christina_Lemke@h...> wrote:
            > Do you mean whether bumrolls as such are documented, or whether
            they
            > are documented for a specific decade?

            <info spipped for brevity>

            > Granted, these dictionaries were compiled some time after the
            objects
            > in question were in fashion, as the text makes clear, but that
            > doesn't necessarily mean the description is incorrect or made up.

            Thank you for the documentation for the term, Christina, but I meant
            is there proof that bumrolls as they wear them over Spanish
            farthingales really existed. All your evidence is from the beginning
            of the 17th century, for which I accept the existence of padded rolls
            worn in this manner. But were women wearing them two to four decades
            earlier over a cone-shaped farthingale? That's what I was really
            asking. But thanks for the docs anyway.

            Kass
          • aheilvei
            ... If your shoulders are the widest part of your upper body, use that measurement as the top of your chemise and cut a rectangle to that size (long - for me,
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 3, 2004
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              > Thank you; you anticipated my next question. So how
              > do I cut the chemise? I've been assuming that it
              > would be cut similarly to the gown, perhaps a little
              > smaller - but that wouldn't be terribly supportive,
              > would it?
              >
              >

              If your shoulders are the widest part of your upper body, use that
              measurement as the top of your chemise and cut a rectangle to that
              size (long - for me, the top of the rectangle is 18 inches and the
              length is 56, this gives me seam allowance for the armholes and
              sides; my chest measurement is something like 41 and it falls to my
              ankles, not the floor, wet chemise hem is icky in the rain); the top
              of your rectangle is on a fold. Cut four gores that you will add to
              the sides to increase the skirt so that it will fit over your hips.
              Cut two rectangles or trapezoids for sleeves, depending on if you
              want the sleeves to taper to fit at the wrist. To measure for the
              sleeves, take a shirt that fits you comfortably, not restricting
              your movement (NOT A TEE SHIRT) and measure the arm sythe, add an
              inch; this is the measurement for the top of your sleeve rectangle.
              Measure your wrist and figure out how tight you want the thing to be
              at your wrist, add an inch; this is the measurement for the bottom
              of your trapezoid. If you don't want the sleeves to be tight at the
              wrist, just go with the measurement from the armsythe downward.
              Measure from the top of your shoulder to the middle of the back of
              your hand; this is the length of your piece. Alternately, take that
              shirt that fits you comfortably and measure from it's shoulder to
              the end of the cuff and add an inch; use this as the length of your
              piece. Cut two squares about 3-4 inches large - these are your
              underarm gussets.

              The key (for me) is that the shoulders are the largest part on the
              upper body and cutting the fabric for them. The bust area will be
              tight and it'll be a bit like putting on a competition swim suit
              (with all that lycra) at first. That's okay because that's your
              support. You do have to pull your shoulders in (tucked to the center
              of your back), with your hands in the air when you put the thing on
              because of the tightness. Yes, it does loosen over the course of the
              day if you're using linen, I've not made one in any other fabric.

              This is how I cut 'em. You want the tightness to be under and about
              halfway up the breasts - not directly over the breasts because that
              just creates uniboob and it's uncomfortable. So long as your
              initial measurement will fit fairly tightly in the ribcage directly
              under your breasts, I've found it to work well.

              I hope this isn't too confusing.

              Despina

              ps I always tell people to add an inch to their measurements because
              it's easier to clip extra fabric than to rip out a seam and add
              another piece - or have to cut an entirely new piece. Also, most
              people measure themselves too tightly and wonder why they can't fit
              into the clothes they measured themselves for... part of being in a
              society overly obsessed with numbers.
            • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
              ... Okay, I m confused. If you cut a rectangle the width of your shoulders, how do you end up with it tight under and halfway up the breasts and not directly
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 4, 2004
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                --- aheilvei <aheilvei@...> wrote:

                >
                > This is how I cut 'em. You want the tightness to be
                > under and about
                > halfway up the breasts - not directly over the
                > breasts because that
                > just creates uniboob and it's uncomfortable. So
                > long as your
                > initial measurement will fit fairly tightly in the
                > ribcage directly
                > under your breasts, I've found it to work well.
                >
                > I hope this isn't too confusing.

                Okay, I'm confused. If you cut a rectangle the width
                of your shoulders, how do you end up with it tight
                under and halfway up the breasts and not directly over
                them? Did I miss something? Or does it have
                something to do with the armscye or gussets?

                Andrea the grateful but semi-clueless





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              • aheilvei
                ... It depends on how well endowed you are. I m not tremendously well endowed, so from arm to arm, the space between my collarbone and my nipple has a smaller
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 5, 2004
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                  > Okay, I'm confused. If you cut a rectangle the width
                  > of your shoulders, how do you end up with it tight
                  > under and halfway up the breasts and not directly over
                  > them? Did I miss something? Or does it have
                  > something to do with the armscye or gussets?
                  >
                  >

                  It depends on how well endowed you are. I'm not tremendously well
                  endowed, so from arm to arm, the space between my collarbone and my
                  nipple has a smaller measurement than my back measurement from
                  shoulder to shoulder. Thus, it's not tight all over my breasts, just
                  under and where my breasts are fullest.

                  Does this help?

                  On another note, I know that Drea prefers to hear from people when
                  they have difficulty with something she has online. Contacting her
                  with the specific problem one is having with her stuff will usually
                  get you an answer. (I do not know if she's going to Pennsic or when
                  so be prepared to wait, if you write to her now.)

                  Despina
                • Andrea Huwydd Lycsenbwrg
                  ... not tight all over ... I think so. I m not really a visualizer, so I won t know until I start cutting and fitting - but I think you ve given me enough to
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 5, 2004
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                    --- aheilvei <aheilvei@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > It depends on how well endowed you are....Thus, it's
                    not tight all over
                    > my breasts, just
                    > under and where my breasts are fullest.
                    >
                    > Does this help?

                    I think so. I'm not really a visualizer, so I won't
                    know until I start cutting and fitting - but I think
                    you've given me enough to work it through. Thanks.

                    >
                    > On another note, I know that Drea prefers to hear
                    > from people when
                    > they have difficulty with something she has online.

                    ????? I've just been going on what I've gleaned from
                    Kass's website and Tangwystl's book on Welsh garb. Is
                    there another site with more specific info on 13th
                    cent chemises?

                    I do appreciate your help.

                    Andrea



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