Re: [Authentic_SCA] Re: Hips and bums and not looking modern
> Anyone on bumrolls? Ever seen them documented by someone other thanI know there's at least one very late period woodcut of women being fitted
> Savoy and Winter?
> asking the hard ones today...
with what look like bumrolls and the best explanation I've heard is that it
was an attempt to get the wheel farthingale look without the hoops (which
should just about fit it into your time period) but as to the typical SCAism
of wearing a bumroll and a Spanish farthingale is undocumentable. It's
amazing how it throws off the silhouette, I looked at a garb diary of
somebody who had made a Tudor gown (1540s IIRC) she used the Simplicity
Shakespeare in Love pattern and the way the bumroll created a shelf a few
inches below her waist just ruined the look.
Elizabeth Beaumont Elizabeth Walpole
Politarchopolis, Lochac Canberra Australia
- There's some interesting thoughts on bumrolls and wheel farthingales
on this site:
Hope you like it.
> > Anyone on bumrolls? Ever seen them documented by someone other
> > Savoy and Winter?
> > Kass
> > asking the hard ones today...
- --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Kass McGann" <historian@r...>
> Anyone on bumrolls? Ever seen them documented by someone otherthan
> Savoy and Winter?Do you mean whether bumrolls as such are documented, or whether they
> asking the hard ones today...
are documented for a specific decade?
Cunnington/Willett quote from inventries where padded rolls are
mentioned. The specific word "bumroll" occurs in "Women beware Women"
(1611) by Middleton and also in a Ben Jonson play, also from around
If you look at the old Académie Française dictionaries
(http://dictionnaires.atilf.fr/dictionnaires/onelook.htm), you will
see that it describes a farthingale ("vertugadin") as a padded roll:
"VERTUGADIN. s.m. (Page 928)
VERTUGADIN. s.m. Gros & large bourrelet que les Dames avoient
accoutumé de porter au-dessous de leur corps de robe. On ne porte
plus de vertugadins. Cela étoit bon du temps qu'on portoit des
Granted, these dictionaries were compiled some time after the objects
in question were in fashion, as the text makes clear, but that
doesn't necessarily mean the description is incorrect or made up.
- --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "xina007eu"
> Do you mean whether bumrolls as such are documented, or whetherthey
> are documented for a specific decade?<info spipped for brevity>
> Granted, these dictionaries were compiled some time after theobjects
> in question were in fashion, as the text makes clear, but thatThank you for the documentation for the term, Christina, but I meant
> doesn't necessarily mean the description is incorrect or made up.
is there proof that bumrolls as they wear them over Spanish
farthingales really existed. All your evidence is from the beginning
of the 17th century, for which I accept the existence of padded rolls
worn in this manner. But were women wearing them two to four decades
earlier over a cone-shaped farthingale? That's what I was really
asking. But thanks for the docs anyway.
> Thank you; you anticipated my next question. So howIf your shoulders are the widest part of your upper body, use that
> do I cut the chemise? I've been assuming that it
> would be cut similarly to the gown, perhaps a little
> smaller - but that wouldn't be terribly supportive,
> would it?
measurement as the top of your chemise and cut a rectangle to that
size (long - for me, the top of the rectangle is 18 inches and the
length is 56, this gives me seam allowance for the armholes and
sides; my chest measurement is something like 41 and it falls to my
ankles, not the floor, wet chemise hem is icky in the rain); the top
of your rectangle is on a fold. Cut four gores that you will add to
the sides to increase the skirt so that it will fit over your hips.
Cut two rectangles or trapezoids for sleeves, depending on if you
want the sleeves to taper to fit at the wrist. To measure for the
sleeves, take a shirt that fits you comfortably, not restricting
your movement (NOT A TEE SHIRT) and measure the arm sythe, add an
inch; this is the measurement for the top of your sleeve rectangle.
Measure your wrist and figure out how tight you want the thing to be
at your wrist, add an inch; this is the measurement for the bottom
of your trapezoid. If you don't want the sleeves to be tight at the
wrist, just go with the measurement from the armsythe downward.
Measure from the top of your shoulder to the middle of the back of
your hand; this is the length of your piece. Alternately, take that
shirt that fits you comfortably and measure from it's shoulder to
the end of the cuff and add an inch; use this as the length of your
piece. Cut two squares about 3-4 inches large - these are your
The key (for me) is that the shoulders are the largest part on the
upper body and cutting the fabric for them. The bust area will be
tight and it'll be a bit like putting on a competition swim suit
(with all that lycra) at first. That's okay because that's your
support. You do have to pull your shoulders in (tucked to the center
of your back), with your hands in the air when you put the thing on
because of the tightness. Yes, it does loosen over the course of the
day if you're using linen, I've not made one in any other fabric.
This is how I cut 'em. You want the tightness to be under and about
halfway up the breasts - not directly over the breasts because that
just creates uniboob and it's uncomfortable. So long as your
initial measurement will fit fairly tightly in the ribcage directly
under your breasts, I've found it to work well.
I hope this isn't too confusing.
ps I always tell people to add an inch to their measurements because
it's easier to clip extra fabric than to rip out a seam and add
another piece - or have to cut an entirely new piece. Also, most
people measure themselves too tightly and wonder why they can't fit
into the clothes they measured themselves for... part of being in a
society overly obsessed with numbers.
- --- aheilvei <aheilvei@...> wrote:
>Okay, I'm confused. If you cut a rectangle the width
> This is how I cut 'em. You want the tightness to be
> under and about
> halfway up the breasts - not directly over the
> breasts because that
> just creates uniboob and it's uncomfortable. So
> long as your
> initial measurement will fit fairly tightly in the
> ribcage directly
> under your breasts, I've found it to work well.
> I hope this isn't too confusing.
of your shoulders, how do you end up with it tight
under and halfway up the breasts and not directly over
them? Did I miss something? Or does it have
something to do with the armscye or gussets?
Andrea the grateful but semi-clueless
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> Okay, I'm confused. If you cut a rectangle the widthIt depends on how well endowed you are. I'm not tremendously well
> of your shoulders, how do you end up with it tight
> under and halfway up the breasts and not directly over
> them? Did I miss something? Or does it have
> something to do with the armscye or gussets?
endowed, so from arm to arm, the space between my collarbone and my
nipple has a smaller measurement than my back measurement from
shoulder to shoulder. Thus, it's not tight all over my breasts, just
under and where my breasts are fullest.
Does this help?
On another note, I know that Drea prefers to hear from people when
they have difficulty with something she has online. Contacting her
with the specific problem one is having with her stuff will usually
get you an answer. (I do not know if she's going to Pennsic or when
so be prepared to wait, if you write to her now.)
- --- aheilvei <aheilvei@...> wrote:
>not tight all over
> It depends on how well endowed you are....Thus, it's
> my breasts, justI think so. I'm not really a visualizer, so I won't
> under and where my breasts are fullest.
> Does this help?
know until I start cutting and fitting - but I think
you've given me enough to work it through. Thanks.
>????? I've just been going on what I've gleaned from
> On another note, I know that Drea prefers to hear
> from people when
> they have difficulty with something she has online.
Kass's website and Tangwystl's book on Welsh garb. Is
there another site with more specific info on 13th
I do appreciate your help.
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