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when did stitching horses come into being?

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  • Shane Stainton
    ie are they period? Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo work, including my tools of the trade but cant seem to find any history on the stitching
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
      ie are they period?
      Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo work, including my
      tools of the trade but cant seem to find any history on the stitching
      horse. (leatherwork for those that are wondering what the heck im
      talking about)
    • wodeford
      ... stitching ... MODERATOR S NOTE: Please sign your posts. Thank you. Jehanne de Wodeford
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
        --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Shane Stainton"
        <newshoes2@c...> wrote:
        > ie are they period?
        > Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo work, including my
        > tools of the trade but cant seem to find any history on the
        stitching
        > horse. (leatherwork for those that are wondering what the heck im
        > talking about)

        MODERATOR'S NOTE: Please sign your posts. Thank you.

        Jehanne de Wodeford
      • Cynthia J Ley
        I still don t know what you re talking about--new one on me. :) Stitching horse ? Arlys
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
          I still don't know what you're talking about--new one on me. :)
          'Stitching horse"?

          Arlys
        • aheilvei
          ... stitching ... Shane, Can you send us to an online pic so those of us who don t know what you re talking about can have a visual? :) I have several images
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
            > ie are they period?
            > Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo work, including my
            > tools of the trade but cant seem to find any history on the
            stitching
            > horse. (leatherwork for those that are wondering what the heck im
            > talking about)

            Shane,
            Can you send us to an online pic so those of us who don't know what
            you're talking about can have a visual? :) I have several images in
            my mind but I'm sure they aren't what you're talking about.... I've
            also got a wonderful exhibition book from the Kentucky State Horse
            Park that has a tremendous amount of artifacts pictured - dealing
            with everything from saddles to the tools used to make accoutrements
            for horses so it wouldn't surprise me if a stitching horse were
            pictured, were it used in the making of horse tack.

            Despina
          • Talia
            A stitching horse looks rather like a small sawhorse, with a large wooden vise mounted at one end (the head of the horse). The person using the stitching
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
              A stitching horse looks rather like a small sawhorse, with a large wooden
              vise mounted at one end (the "head" of the horse). The person using the
              stitching horse will straddle it as if he or she were riding a horse, and
              clamp their work into the jaws of the vise. This way, it frees up both their
              hands to do their stitching work and they can work much faster than if their
              work wasn't clamped.

              There is also a stitching pony, which is the clamp/vise without the sawhorse
              part. The pony is typically then held between the knees with the work
              clamped into it, and used that way.

              Talia
              BFS
              Calontir

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: aheilvei [mailto:aheilvei@...]
              > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:35 AM
              > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: when did stitching horses come into being?
              >
              >
              > > ie are they period?
              > > Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo work, including my
              > > tools of the trade but cant seem to find any history on the
              > stitching
              > > horse. (leatherwork for those that are wondering what the heck im
              > > talking about)
              >
              > Shane,
              > Can you send us to an online pic so those of us who don't know what
              > you're talking about can have a visual? :) I have several images in
              > my mind but I'm sure they aren't what you're talking about.... I've
              > also got a wonderful exhibition book from the Kentucky State Horse
              > Park that has a tremendous amount of artifacts pictured - dealing
              > with everything from saddles to the tools used to make accoutrements
              > for horses so it wouldn't surprise me if a stitching horse were
              > pictured, were it used in the making of horse tack.
              >
              > Despina
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----------------------------------------------------
              > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Saerlaith ingen Ruadan
              Now I know what those things are!! I saw two very old ones at a local junk shop and thought they had something to do with woodworking. Thanks for the info 8-
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
                Now I know what those things are!! I saw two very old ones at a local "junk"
                shop and thought they had something to do with woodworking. Thanks for the
                info 8- )

                Saerlaith


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Heather Rose Jones
                ... Jost Amman s Book of Trades might be a good place to look. For those not familiar with it, it s a collection of woodcuts of people engaged in a wide
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 30, 2004
                  At 10:42 AM +0000 6/30/04, Shane Stainton wrote:
                  >ie are they period?
                  >Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo work, including my
                  >tools of the trade but cant seem to find any history on the stitching
                  >horse. (leatherwork for those that are wondering what the heck im
                  >talking about)

                  Jost Amman's "Book of Trades" might be a good place to look. For
                  those not familiar with it, it's a collection of woodcuts of people
                  engaged in a wide variety of trades, accompanied by a short verse
                  describing their work.

                  Tangwystyl
                  --
                  ****
                  Heather Rose Jones
                  heather.jones@...
                  ****
                • Karl Brockfeld
                  Talia, I d imagine for a very long time, late period at least, as the very same tool is known amongst woodworkers as the shaving horse , used for trimming
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jul 1, 2004
                    Talia,

                    I'd imagine for a very long time, late period at
                    least, as the very same tool is known amongst
                    woodworkers as the "shaving horse", used for trimming
                    wood down with a rasp or draw knife. There are datable
                    examples at the oldest settlements in New England, and
                    these were considered a staple tool in everyone's
                    home, not just a specialist tool.

                    Best, Karl
                    SLF
                    Calontir


                    --- Talia <talia@...> wrote:
                    > A stitching horse looks rather like a small
                    > sawhorse, with a large wooden
                    > vise mounted at one end (the "head" of the horse).
                    > The person using the
                    > stitching horse will straddle it as if he or she
                    > were riding a horse, and
                    > clamp their work into the jaws of the vise. This
                    > way, it frees up both their
                    > hands to do their stitching work and they can work
                    > much faster than if their
                    > work wasn't clamped.
                    >
                    > There is also a stitching pony, which is the
                    > clamp/vise without the sawhorse
                    > part. The pony is typically then held between the
                    > knees with the work
                    > clamped into it, and used that way.
                    >
                    > Talia
                    > BFS
                    > Calontir
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: aheilvei [mailto:aheilvei@...]
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 9:35 AM
                    > > To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: when did stitching
                    > horses come into being?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > ie are they period?
                    > > > Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo
                    > work, including my
                    > > > tools of the trade but cant seem to find any
                    > history on the
                    > > stitching
                    > > > horse. (leatherwork for those that are wondering
                    > what the heck im
                    > > > talking about)
                    > >
                    > > Shane,
                    > > Can you send us to an online pic so those of us
                    > who don't know what
                    > > you're talking about can have a visual? :) I have
                    > several images in
                    > > my mind but I'm sure they aren't what you're
                    > talking about.... I've
                    > > also got a wonderful exhibition book from the
                    > Kentucky State Horse
                    > > Park that has a tremendous amount of artifacts
                    > pictured - dealing
                    > > with everything from saddles to the tools used to
                    > make accoutrements
                    > > for horses so it wouldn't surprise me if a
                    > stitching horse were
                    > > pictured, were it used in the making of horse
                    > tack.
                    > >
                    > > Despina
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > ----------------------------------------------------
                    > > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >





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                  • Jeff Gedney
                    ... Hmmm... The stitching horses and shaving horses I ve seen seem to be differently constructed, with the stitching horse being quite short in length, having
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jul 1, 2004
                      >I'd imagine for a very long time, late period at
                      >least, as the very same tool is known amongst
                      >woodworkers as the "shaving horse", used for trimming
                      >wood down with a rasp or draw knife. There are datable
                      >examples at the oldest settlements in New England, and
                      >these were considered a staple tool in everyone's
                      >home, not just a specialist tool.

                      Hmmm...

                      The stitching horses and shaving horses I've seen seem to be differently constructed, with the stitching horse being quite short in length, having a vertical workpiece clamp that rises between the legs, whereas a shaving horse is longer, and the workpiece clamp is well ahead of the worker allowing the use of a draw shave.

                      Here's a picture of a modern stitching horse
                      www.caledonleather.ca/ stitch-horse.html

                      Here's a picture of a modern Shave horse
                      http://www.coedceiriog.co.uk/stewart/s-pix/greenwood/shaving_s.jpg

                      Apart from the fact that both are wood, you sit on them while using them, and use your feet for tension, they dont seem to have a lot of similarity.

                      I also cant see how youd use a shave horse for the stitching, if you were to use one as a stitching horse.
                      the advantage of the stitching horse being that the clamp is basically narrow boards that hold the seam up about chest level, and hold it vertically so that the piece can be sewn right to left.
                      A Shave horse clamp is low, usually thick and blunt, and horizontally mounted. It is designed to hold a piece of wood horizontally so it can be shaved with a drawknife.

                      Looking for illustrations of tradesmen, I see a lot of examples of leather workers sewing stuff whill holding it clamped between the knees, none using anything like a horse, but this is a purely cursory glance on line.

                      People who have done more research into period letherworking (like Marc Carlson) might be able to give you a more definitive answer, but my initial impression is that stitching ponies and horses are probably not period.

                      Marc?

                      Capt Elias

                      --------------------------------------------------------------
                      The Purpose of the First Amendment is not to protect only
                      comfortable speech. Such speech needs no protection. It is,
                      rather, the daring, the profound, the probitive, and yes, the
                      offensive, that needs that shield. For nothing significant,
                      not in art, culture, or even in politics, has ever arisen
                      from pandering to the whims of majority.
                    • Karl Brockfeld
                      my mistake! By the description, I took the stitching horse to be the same as the shaving horse, which I know very well!! Karl ...
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jul 1, 2004
                        my mistake! By the description, I took the stitching
                        horse to be the same as the shaving horse, which I
                        know very well!!

                        Karl

                        --- Jeff Gedney <gedney1@...> wrote:
                        > >I'd imagine for a very long time, late period at
                        > >least, as the very same tool is known amongst
                        > >woodworkers as the "shaving horse", used for
                        > trimming
                        > >wood down with a rasp or draw knife. There are
                        > datable
                        > >examples at the oldest settlements in New England,
                        > and
                        > >these were considered a staple tool in everyone's
                        > >home, not just a specialist tool.
                        >
                        > Hmmm...
                        >
                        > The stitching horses and shaving horses I've seen
                        > seem to be differently constructed, with the
                        > stitching horse being quite short in length, having
                        > a vertical workpiece clamp that rises between the
                        > legs, whereas a shaving horse is longer, and the
                        > workpiece clamp is well ahead of the worker allowing
                        > the use of a draw shave.
                        >
                        > Here's a picture of a modern stitching horse
                        > www.caledonleather.ca/ stitch-horse.html
                        >
                        > Here's a picture of a modern Shave horse
                        >
                        http://www.coedceiriog.co.uk/stewart/s-pix/greenwood/shaving_s.jpg
                        >
                        > Apart from the fact that both are wood, you sit on
                        > them while using them, and use your feet for
                        > tension, they dont seem to have a lot of similarity.
                        >
                        > I also cant see how youd use a shave horse for the
                        > stitching, if you were to use one as a stitching
                        > horse.
                        > the advantage of the stitching horse being that the
                        > clamp is basically narrow boards that hold the seam
                        > up about chest level, and hold it vertically so that
                        > the piece can be sewn right to left.
                        > A Shave horse clamp is low, usually thick and blunt,
                        > and horizontally mounted. It is designed to hold a
                        > piece of wood horizontally so it can be shaved with
                        > a drawknife.
                        >
                        > Looking for illustrations of tradesmen, I see a lot
                        > of examples of leather workers sewing stuff whill
                        > holding it clamped between the knees, none using
                        > anything like a horse, but this is a purely cursory
                        > glance on line.
                        >
                        > People who have done more research into period
                        > letherworking (like Marc Carlson) might be able to
                        > give you a more definitive answer, but my initial
                        > impression is that stitching ponies and horses are
                        > probably not period.
                        >
                        > Marc?
                        >
                        > Capt Elias
                        >
                        >
                        --------------------------------------------------------------
                        > The Purpose of the First Amendment is not to protect
                        > only
                        > comfortable speech. Such speech needs no protection.
                        > It is,
                        > rather, the daring, the profound, the probitive, and
                        > yes, the
                        > offensive, that needs that shield. For nothing
                        > significant,
                        > not in art, culture, or even in politics, has ever
                        > arisen
                        > from pandering to the whims of majority.
                        >
                        >
                        >




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                      • Jeff Gedney
                        ... no Problem, I thought it was something like that. (I am looking to make a Shave horse for myself quite soon. After that I will have used both tools and can
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jul 1, 2004
                          >my mistake! By the description, I took the stitching
                          >horse to be the same as the shaving horse, which I
                          >know very well!!
                          >
                          >Karl

                          no Problem, I thought it was something like that.
                          (I am looking to make a Shave horse for myself quite soon. After that I will have used both tools and can tell you for certain how interchangeable they are)

                          Oh, and here's that sitich horse link (Correct, this time):
                          http://www.caledonleather.ca/stitch-horse.html



                          Capt Elias

                          --------------------------------------------------------------
                          The Purpose of the First Amendment is not to protect only
                          comfortable speech. Such speech needs no protection. It is,
                          rather, the daring, the profound, the probitive, and yes, the
                          offensive, that needs that shield. For nothing significant,
                          not in art, culture, or even in politics, has ever arisen
                          from pandering to the whims of majority.
                        • Willow Polson
                          ... I ve done woodworking for a very long time, including some period woodworking, and have never heard that a shave horse was a staple in everyone s home.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jul 1, 2004
                            At 09:13 AM 7/1/2004 -0700, you wrote:
                            > the "shaving horse", used for trimming
                            >wood down with a rasp or draw knife. There are datable
                            >examples at the oldest settlements in New England, and
                            >these were considered a staple tool in everyone's
                            >home, not just a specialist tool.

                            I've done woodworking for a very long time, including some period
                            woodworking, and have never heard that a shave horse was a staple in
                            everyone's home. What is your source for that information?

                            - Willow MacPherson


                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                            Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                            http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
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                          • Marc Carlson
                            ... I m pretty sure they are post-Period. They aren t in Jost Amon s book that I am aware of - however, you will notice the shoemakers in the picture on them
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jul 3, 2004
                              > At 10:42 AM +0000 6/30/04, Shane Stainton wrote:
                              >ie are they period?
                              >Id like to fine tune my encampment and my demo work, including my
                              >tools of the trade but cant seem to find any history on the stitching
                              >horse. (leatherwork for those that are wondering what the heck im
                              >talking about)

                              I'm pretty sure they are post-Period. They aren't in Jost Amon's book
                              that I am aware of - however, you will notice the shoemakers in the
                              picture on them are using a stirrup for sewing leather (A stirrup is a
                              strip of leather or rope around the leg, used to hold the work to a
                              sewing block held on the thigh). The earliest I can recall seeing a
                              stitching horse is Garsault in 1762.

                              Marc
                            • Marc Carlson
                              ... I m here, I m here (just off line a lot lately while I m trying to get work done on this stupid book). The clamp (clam) held between the knees does seem to
                              Message 14 of 14 , Jul 3, 2004
                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff Gedney" <gedney1@i...> wrote:
                                > Looking for illustrations of tradesmen, I see a lot of examples of
                                > leather workers sewing stuff whill holding it clamped between the
                                > knees, none using anything like a horse, but this is a purely
                                > cursory glance on line.
                                > People who have done more research into period letherworking (like
                                > Marc Carlson) might be able to give you a more definitive answer,
                                > but my initial impression is that stitching ponies and horses are
                                > probably not period.
                                > Marc?

                                I'm here, I'm here (just off line a lot lately while I'm trying to get
                                work done on this stupid book).

                                The clamp (clam) held between the knees does seem to be the version
                                that appears in Garsault.

                                Marc/Diarmaid
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