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Re: [Authentic_SCA] Frontal nudity okay in period??

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  • Mary Taran
    ... 17th century fashion is not the topic of this list. The SCA may not be very definitive about a start date, but pre-17th century is pretty clear. Mary
    Message 1 of 29 , Jun 1, 2004
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      At 10:36 AM 6/1/2004, you wrote:

      >What do you guys think of this article? Wild! 8-o
      >
      ><http://scatoday.net/story.php?search_id=N-20040517-195506-0003>http://scatoday.net/story.php?search_id=N-20040517-195506-0003

      17th century fashion is not the topic of this list. The SCA may not be
      very definitive about a start date, but pre-17th century is pretty clear.

      Mary Taran

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    • hunyddthered
      ... some areas. Can t speak for the rest of the Knowne Worlde, of course, but from a Lochac point of view, the whole 1660 s thing seems to be becuase we do a
      Message 2 of 29 , Jun 1, 2004
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        Willow Polson wrote:

        > It's my understanding that SCA period goes to 1660, at least in
        some areas.

        Can't speak for the rest of the Knowne Worlde, of course, but from a
        Lochac point of view, the whole 1660's thing seems to be becuase we
        do a lot of country dances that were first recorded in the mid-
        1600s. The wisdom was that they would have been danced before this
        date, but being peasant dances were not considered worthy of writing
        down until much later (or something along those lines). Therefore,
        they were included as "period" which pushed the cut-off date back.

        I think we also mark the official end-of-period date as the death of
        Elizabeth I, which is 1603 (I think) to tie it to an era, rather
        than a date.

        Cheers,
        Hunydd
      • bex_1014
        To be honest, I think it s a sensationalist article which is taking things out of context as support for its dodgy theory. You may notice that they never
        Message 3 of 29 , Jun 1, 2004
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          To be honest, I think it's a sensationalist article which is taking
          things out of context as support for its dodgy theory.
          You may notice that they never define anywhere exactly what they mean
          by "bared breast", and the only woodcut they do show has cleavage,
          not what most people would call a breast.
          The portrait of Agnes Sorel (1400's) has her painted as the Virgin
          Mary, breast-feeding the infant Jesus. Her dress is clearly supposed
          to be fully laced up over the breasts when worn normally.
          The bodices of dresses in the 1500's show cleavage in some cases, but
          I have never seen an illustration anywhere of a respectable woman,
          either at rest or going about her business, with nipples showing,
          unless she is breast-feeding. (Or naked, as in about to enter a bath
          or something, but that's not the gist of the article.) People painted
          in saint's poses or as legendary figures are a different matter, but
          certainly not one that should be taken as representative of every-day
          life. I would add, the most famous bare-breasted saint (St. Agatha) I
          have seen has them sitting on a platter in front of her, and her
          dress goes up to the neck. (St Agatha had her breasts removed as part
          of the torture during her martyrdom... a rather unlikely candidate to
          be portrayed as, I would have thought.)
          What they did after 1600 of course, is probably entirely different...
          Rebecca

          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
          wrote:
          > What do you guys think of this article? Wild! 8-o
          >
          > http://scatoday.net/story.php?search_id=N-20040517-195506-0003
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > Rev. Willow Polson
          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        • Willow Polson
          Okay, I ve been misinformed for all these years then. Forget my previous post. - Willow MacPherson
          Message 4 of 29 , Jun 1, 2004
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            Okay, I've been misinformed for all these years then. Forget my previous post.

            - Willow MacPherson
          • Willow Polson
            ... Actually, the slideshow has four woodcuts, all of which show full breasts including nipples. The first woodcut is apparently an announcement of the
            Message 5 of 29 , Jun 1, 2004
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              At 03:51 AM 6/2/2004 +0000, you wrote:
              >To be honest, I think it's a sensationalist article which is taking
              >things out of context as support for its dodgy theory.
              >You may notice that they never define anywhere exactly what they mean
              >by "bared breast", and the only woodcut they do show has cleavage,
              >not what most people would call a breast.

              Actually, the slideshow has four woodcuts, all of which show full breasts
              including nipples. The first woodcut is apparently an announcement of the
              coronation of William & Mary with Mary's full breasts exposed. That's what
              I saw anyway... maybe they changed the slide show since this morning.

              - Willow MacPherson
            • JessicaHie@aol.com
              .........what ever floats one boat..... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                .........what ever floats one boat.....


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • wodeford
                ... a ... The first edition of Playford s The English Dancing Master dates to 1651. Jehanne de Wodeford
                Message 7 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "hunyddthered"
                  <mel_elliott100@h...> wrote:
                  > Can't speak for the rest of the Knowne Worlde, of course, but from
                  a
                  > Lochac point of view, the whole 1660's thing seems to be becuase we
                  > do a lot of country dances that were first recorded in the mid-
                  > 1600s.

                  The first edition of Playford's "The English Dancing Master" dates to
                  1651.

                  Jehanne de Wodeford
                • Maura Folsom
                  ... Actually, I understood that the 1650 tolerance had less to do with cavaliers than with Edwin Bearsark, who insisted on wearing kilts, period or not,
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                    "Cathal@..." wrote:

                    > The confusion over the 1650 usage comes from the mid 1970's when a brief flirtation
                    > with 'cavalier' costume in some of the Kingdoms became a chronic manifestation. Things
                    > were a lot looser back then and no-one really wanted to bully folk on the grounds of a 50
                    > year deviation in costume choice. Once it became tolerated, however, it didn't take long
                    > for the great masses of the misinformed to assume that it was a change in Da Rules
                    > (tm).

                    Actually, I understood that the "1650 tolerance" had less to do with
                    cavaliers than with Edwin Bearsark, who insisted on wearing kilts,
                    period or not, pretty much from the Very Beginnings. At least that's
                    where it came from originally in the West.

                    I remember someone actually saying at his wake that "we can let the 1650
                    thing go now, right?"

                    Marguerie
                  • rowen_g
                    ... 1650 ... Somehow I m not surprised (having known the gentleman).... We get a fair amount of early 17th c folk around here, from the large fencing
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                      --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Maura Folsom <jauncourt@v...> wrote:
                      > Actually, I understood that the "1650 tolerance" had less to do with
                      > cavaliers than with Edwin Bearsark, who insisted on wearing kilts,
                      > period or not, pretty much from the Very Beginnings. At least that's
                      > where it came from originally in the West.
                      >
                      > I remember someone actually saying at his wake that "we can let the
                      1650
                      > thing go now, right?"
                      >

                      Somehow I'm not surprised (having known the gentleman).... We get a
                      fair amount of early 17th c folk around here, from the large fencing
                      comunity, and from a number of older folk who were told "1650's ok"
                      when we joined (yes, I got it too) and tend to stick with it. I keep
                      to pre-1600 myself, but a nice 1630s outfit doesn't bother me nearly
                      as much as any number of other things.

                      Rowen
                    • Hasoferet@aol.com
                      In a message dated 6/1/2004 10:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, ... William n Mary were crowned 1689, though. Really post-period. I haven t actually read this
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                        In a message dated 6/1/2004 10:57:46 PM Pacific Standard Time,
                        willow@... writes:


                        > Actually, the slideshow has four woodcuts, all of which show full breasts
                        > including nipples. The first woodcut is apparently an announcement of the
                        > coronation of William & Mary with Mary's full breasts exposed. That's what
                        > I saw anyway... maybe they changed the slide show since this morning.

                        William'n'Mary were crowned 1689, though. Really post-period. I haven't
                        actually read this article, so can't say nothin' about it, but 1600s portraits tend
                        to show a lot of nipple. Usually just one, peeking out from under the edge of
                        your chemise, but definately a lot of nipple on display. It's a cute look,
                        but not one I've seen during our period...

                        Raquel, who tends to behave badly in London's National Portrait Gallery.

                        (Not as badly as the random man who attached to her and a friend there,
                        though, to inform us that James I was 'the first known homosexual'.)

                        ((Ah, the 1600s--age of nipples on display, and men who wore sober suits with
                        Fredericks of Hollywood mules...))
                        _______________________________________________________
                        Kamatz katan le'olam!


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                      • bex_1014
                        These woodcuts are all post-1600 though, as far as I can see. I did note that what I wrote was intended to apply to the SCA period (before 1600). Connecting
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                          These woodcuts are all post-1600 though, as far as I can see. I did
                          note that what I wrote was intended to apply to the SCA period
                          (before 1600). Connecting the fashion post-1600 with
                          the "Agnes Sorel" picture, IMO is going too far. The AS
                          picture in question can be seen here:
                          http://gallery.euroweb.hu/cgi-bin/gallery/highlight.cgi?
                          file=html/f/fouquet/madonna.html&find=Agnes+Sorel
                          (Hope that link works. If it doesnt, go to the Web Gallery of Art and
                          search for Agnes Sorel, by Jean Fouquet, c.1450.) It is clearly
                          allegorical/mystical, albeit in a rather odd way. (Painting the
                          king's mistress as the Virgin Mary???)
                          While what the article proposes may be more accurate for the 17th
                          century, in certain circles, I would still not think that bare
                          breasts were common for the average woman. But that is OOP anyway, so
                          I'll leave it.
                          Rebecca
                        • Sharon L. Krossa
                          ... Which, while I have no problem believing people thought this made sense at the time, is really kind of funny since kilts proper (Scottish male skirt) are
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                            At 12:10 PM -0500 6/2/04, Maura Folsom wrote:
                            >Actually, I understood that the "1650 tolerance" had less to do with
                            >cavaliers than with Edwin Bearsark, who insisted on wearing kilts,
                            >period or not, pretty much from the Very Beginnings. At least that's
                            >where it came from originally in the West.

                            Which, while I have no problem believing people thought this made
                            sense at the time, is really kind of funny since kilts proper
                            (Scottish male skirt) are an 18th century invention, so extending
                            period to 1650 doesn't help at all for them. Plaids worn belted, of
                            course, (modernly often called "belted plaids" or "great kilts") are
                            entirely period by the official definition, the first unambiguous
                            description dating to 1594 (in Gaelic, no less, and contrasting the
                            attire of Scottish Gaels to that of Irish Gaels -- as said,
                            unambiguous ;-) so no extension of period is needed for them.

                            Affrick
                            --
                            Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                          • Wanda Pease
                            I always understood that the 1650 date came from an early, maybe first, printing of the Known World Handbook, and Queen Carol s Guide. Neither of these were
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jun 2, 2004
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                              I always understood that the 1650 date came from an early, maybe first,
                              printing of the Known World Handbook, and Queen Carol's Guide. Neither of
                              these were blessed as "canon" by the Board of Directors of their day. In
                              later years the 1650 date was pretty firmly disavowed by the BoD which
                              caused screams of "They're changing the SCA arbitrarily!!!!!" The fact
                              that nothing was being changed had nothing to do with it. I've seen a 1st
                              generation copy of the original Articles of Incorporation, and they said
                              "Pre-17th Century" very clearly. These are the ones that established the
                              SCA so we could go and play in a Berkley (?) park.

                              Regina
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Sharon L. Krossa [mailto:skrossa-ml@...]
                              Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 2004 8:52 PM
                              To: Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [Authentic_SCA] 1650 Tolerance (was: Frontal nudity okay in
                              period??)


                              At 12:10 PM -0500 6/2/04, Maura Folsom wrote:
                              >Actually, I understood that the "1650 tolerance" had less to do with
                              >cavaliers than with Edwin Bearsark, who insisted on wearing kilts,
                              >period or not, pretty much from the Very Beginnings. At least that's
                              >where it came from originally in the West.

                              Which, while I have no problem believing people thought this made
                              sense at the time, is really kind of funny since kilts proper
                              (Scottish male skirt) are an 18th century invention, so extending
                              period to 1650 doesn't help at all for them. Plaids worn belted, of
                              course, (modernly often called "belted plaids" or "great kilts") are
                              entirely period by the official definition, the first unambiguous
                              description dating to 1594 (in Gaelic, no less, and contrasting the
                              attire of Scottish Gaels to that of Irish Gaels -- as said,
                              unambiguous ;-) so no extension of period is needed for them.

                              Affrick
                              --
                              Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...



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                            • mastergunner1588
                              ... I don t think I d agree with that. Number 4 certainly appears to be Elizabethan, not Jacobean. It closely resembles some of the dresses worn by
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jun 3, 2004
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                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "bex_1014"
                                <tonkin.rebecca@s...> wrote:
                                > These woodcuts are all post-1600 though, as far as I can see. I did
                                > note that what I wrote was intended to apply to the SCA period
                                > (before 1600).
                                > Rebecca

                                I don't think I'd agree with that. Number 4 certainly appears to be
                                Elizabethan, not Jacobean. It closely resembles some of the dresses
                                worn by Elizabeth. There are also a number of broadsheet wood cuts
                                that do show similar styles that cut across a broad section of
                                society from the Elizabethan period. (not at home or I'd post some
                                links). Was it common? Not something that every woman would wear, I
                                would say, but not unheard of, either.

                                Just as a nitpick, I saw a lot of people rush to say 'not period' on
                                the list. The article covers a lot more than just the headline, and
                                does discuss more than just 17th C. I would hope that people on this
                                list would not be more concerned with a modern attitude to these
                                fashions, rather than historical accuracy, and use the 'not period'
                                argument to dismiss the entire article.

                                Hawkyns
                              • Aliskye
                                It should be noted that a number of the flyers for early events before things were codified do state before 1650 for the cut-off. regards, aliskye ... with ...
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jun 3, 2004
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                                  It should be noted that a number of the flyers for early events
                                  before things were codified do state before 1650 for the cut-off.

                                  regards,

                                  aliskye

                                  --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "rowen_g" <rowengr@h...> wrote:
                                  > --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Maura Folsom <jauncourt@v...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > Actually, I understood that the "1650 tolerance" had less to do
                                  with
                                  > > cavaliers than with Edwin Bearsark, who insisted on wearing
                                  kilts,
                                  > > period or not, pretty much from the Very Beginnings. At least
                                  that's
                                  > > where it came from originally in the West.
                                  > >
                                  > > I remember someone actually saying at his wake that "we can let
                                  the
                                  > 1650
                                  > > thing go now, right?"
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Somehow I'm not surprised (having known the gentleman).... We
                                  get a
                                  > fair amount of early 17th c folk around here, from the large fencing
                                  > comunity, and from a number of older folk who were told "1650's ok"
                                  > when we joined (yes, I got it too) and tend to stick with it. I
                                  keep
                                  > to pre-1600 myself, but a nice 1630s outfit doesn't bother me nearly
                                  > as much as any number of other things.
                                  >
                                  > Rowen
                                • Marc Carlson
                                  Not that it will alter anything, nor that it should - but when I was first introduced to the SCA (in 1979 in Ansteorra) I was taught that the ending date was
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jun 3, 2004
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                                    Not that it will alter anything, nor that it should - but when I was
                                    first introduced to the SCA (in 1979 in Ansteorra) I was taught that
                                    the ending date was 1600 with a slop-over date of about 50 years for
                                    people who wanted to go that far. OTOH, I was also taught that you
                                    shouldn't claim to be anything you can not prove yourself to be (i.e.
                                    Elf, Witch, Priest, Doctor, whatever). And those are more or less the
                                    guidelines I've tried to stick with for me.

                                    Marc/Diarmaid
                                  • Ealasaid nic Suibhne
                                    delurking to add: And another contributor to the problem is that there is a certain percentage of folk out there that think 17th Century means 1700 through
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jun 3, 2004
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                                      delurking to add:

                                      And another contributor to the problem is that there is a certain
                                      percentage of folk out there that think "17th Century" means 1700
                                      through 1799. I've had mild arguments with several SCA people who
                                      didn't understand that the 17th Century started on January 1, 1601.

                                      Ealasaid nic Suibhne
                                      Kingdom of Atenveldt
                                      main focus of study: very early period textiles/embroidery
                                    • aheilvei
                                      Personal opinion. The horse has crumbled to dust and is fading back into the earth it s been dead a while and the continued flogging isn t doing any good.
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jun 3, 2004
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                                        Personal opinion.

                                        The horse has crumbled to dust and is fading back into the earth
                                        it's been dead a while and the continued flogging isn't doing any
                                        good.

                                        Personal opinion.

                                        Smiles,
                                        Despina de la gets to go home from work before 11pm for the first
                                        time this week - bubye
                                      • Dianne & Greg Stucki
                                        ... From: aheilvei To: Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 4:58 PM Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 1650 Tolerance
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jun 3, 2004
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                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "aheilvei" <aheilvei@...>
                                          To: <Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Thursday, June 03, 2004 4:58 PM
                                          Subject: [Authentic_SCA] Re: 1650 Tolerance (was: Frontal nudity okay in
                                          period??)


                                          >
                                          > Personal opinion.
                                          >
                                          > The horse has crumbled to dust and is fading back into the earth
                                          > it's been dead a while and the continued flogging isn't doing any
                                          > good.

                                          So it's an ex-horse? It has ceased to be?

                                          Laurensa de la watched too much Monty Python today....
                                          >
                                          > Personal opinion.
                                          >
                                          > Smiles,
                                          > Despina de la gets to go home from work before 11pm for the first
                                          > time this week - bubye
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----------------------------------------------------
                                          > This is the Authentic SCA eGroup
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Sharon L. Krossa
                                          ... and ... While I agree that the 17th century is, roughly, the 1600s, I advise against insisting on too precise exact end points for it (or other
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jun 3, 2004
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                                            At 5:28 PM -0400 6/1/04, Cathal@... wrote:
                                            >It's a matter of local common wisdom over statutory fact. The
                                            >Governing Documents of the SCA specify "pre-17th century western
                                            >culture" and always have. In even the most generous of
                                            >interpretations, that means the SCA's period of focus ends at 12:00
                                            >midnight on 31 December, 1600 CE. That, imo, settles the 'official'
                                            >end of things

                                            and

                                            At 8:17 PM +0000 6/3/04, Ealasaid nic Suibhne wrote:
                                            >And another contributor to the problem is that there is a certain
                                            >percentage of folk out there that think "17th Century" means 1700
                                            >through 1799. I've had mild arguments with several SCA people who
                                            >didn't understand that the 17th Century started on January 1, 1601.

                                            While I agree that the 17th century is, roughly, the 1600s, I advise
                                            against insisting on too precise "exact" end points for it (or other
                                            centuries).

                                            Precise hours are too exact and even precise days are not safe -- in
                                            many SCA period cultures the calendar year did not start on 1 January
                                            (in England, for example, it started on 25 March until the mid-18th
                                            century) and, further, circa 1600, because some countries had adopted
                                            the Gregorian Calendar but others had not, 1 January occurred on
                                            different days in different parts of Europe.

                                            Calendars and associated concepts, such as named/numbered centuries,
                                            are socially constructed concepts and not inevitable absolutes, and
                                            as such they tend to change and vary and they aren't always derived
                                            logically purely from consistent first principles. So even whether
                                            the 17th century starts with 1601 or 1600 is not clear cut and is
                                            legitimately arguable... **

                                            And this isn't even to get into the issue of "long" centuries as used
                                            by historians to lump together trends that don't fit neatly into
                                            numbered centuries!

                                            Africa

                                            **PS In anticipation of those who will try to argue it is not
                                            arguable, based on appeals to logic, just contemplate the "logical"
                                            consequences of a year numbering system where the (6th century AD)
                                            inventor set the theoretical beginning of "Year 1" on the 1 January
                                            after the 25 December birth of Christ but where later people, without
                                            changing the year numbers, changed the beginning of the year to 25
                                            March, the anniversary of the conception of Christ -- and then later
                                            others, at different times, changed it back to 1 January (not to
                                            mention others still changing the start of the year to yet other
                                            dates...). Logic doesn't provide one inevitable answer, nor is actual
                                            practice -- usage by different people and/or in different times --
                                            consistent (as evidenced by the huge celebrations over 31 Dec 1999-1
                                            Jan 2000 compared to 31 Dec 2000-1 Jan 2001 ;-).

                                            PPS It occurs to me to wonder -- when did Europeans start
                                            numbering/naming centuries, that is, using terms like "10th century",
                                            "17th century", etc?
                                            --
                                            Sharon L. Krossa, skrossa-ml@...
                                          • Karen Hall
                                            ... As common usage, at least it was in the nineteenth century. There is quite a lot of scholarly writing on the Victorian period and cultural understandings
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jun 4, 2004
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                                              > PPS It occurs to me to wonder -- when did Europeans start
                                              > numbering/naming centuries, that is, using terms like "10th century",
                                              > "17th century", etc?

                                              As common usage, at least it was in the nineteenth century. There is quite a
                                              lot of scholarly writing on the Victorian period and cultural understandings
                                              of history. But that's probably not relevant to this list, so anyone wanting
                                              part of chapter one of my thesis can contact me offlist :).

                                              Alessandra
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