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Re: Period head coverings - help!

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  • ACatelli@manafortbrothers.com
    ... used, ... So true. Also fun to experiment--I recommend a 15x60 , a 1-yard square and a 45 square scarf to get most variants. Dharma trading carries
    Message 1 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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      > There are a whole bunch of different ways to get the same looks we see in
      > period art. It's not always possible to tell exactly which one was being
      used,
      > so I encourage people to experiment and see what works for them.

      So true.

      Also fun to experiment--I recommend a 15x60", a 1-yard square and a 45"
      square scarf to get most variants.
      Dharma trading carries hand-hemmed cotton scarves for reasonable.
      If you then find that all the varients you like take a 45" square, you can
      get as nice a linen as you can find & upgrade to that, doing your own hand
      hemming.


      > It sounds like you are trying to do the turban by the "Aunt Jemima"
      method,
      > correct? Put the center of the fabric over the head, wrap the ends around
      and
      > tie?

      Except that hers is very definitely a triangle or
      square-folded-into-a-triangle & the ends left to dangle.
      I associate the look with 'pirates, arrrrrr'.


      > (snip Brangwayna's variants & good advise)

      > I've seen no evidence anywhere for the kerchief tied at the
      > back of the neck as the sole headdress.
      >
      > Brangwayna

      Not if it's a simple knot, but I've seen plenty of one or two scarves
      knotted & draped around the head, some with ends dangling, more with all
      'bits' tucked up.
      Mostly with the scarves square-on, so a hemmed edge is across the forehead.

      I've been looking mostly at 14th & 15th century manuscripts & the Manesse
      codex, especially on the poorer women.
      Dame Poverty herself is wearing the head scarf style I do most in one
      manuscript, but I'm at work away from my references. I have seen it on
      other figures, too, those recieving alms or working in the background of a
      seasonal-activity calendar panel.


      Ann in CT
    • Willow Polson
      ... Right..... but AFAIK they were extremely careful in Colonial House to get everything completely authentically correct, and I saw women wearing
      Message 2 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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        At 12:16 PM 6/1/2004 -0400, you wrote:
        >I associate the look with 'pirates, arrrrrr'.

        Right..... but AFAIK they were extremely careful in Colonial House to get
        everything completely authentically correct, and I saw women wearing
        "kerchief-like" head coverings tied in the back....

        >Not if it's a simple knot, but I've seen plenty of one or two scarves
        >knotted & draped around the head, some with ends dangling, more with all
        >'bits' tucked up.

        I've seen some of these sorts of things....but I don't really get what
        you're describing... one or two scarves... draped... dangling... tucked
        up.... knotted.... I'm feeling very lost. 8-\

        >I've been looking mostly at 14th & 15th century manuscripts & the Manesse
        >codex, especially on the poorer women.
        >Dame Poverty herself is wearing the head scarf style I do most in one
        >manuscript, but I'm at work away from my references. I have seen it on
        >other figures, too, those recieving alms or working in the background of a
        >seasonal-activity calendar panel.

        I should clarify that I'm looking for what would be appropriate to a
        middle-class woman (not poor, not rich) in the 15th - 16th centuries.


        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
        Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
        http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
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      • Wendy
        ... I ve seen no evidence anywhere for the kerchief tied at the ... I know I was bad on Sunday with the coif-tied-in-a-knot-at-the- back... but sitting in my
        Message 3 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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          --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Brangwayna wrote:
          I've seen no evidence anywhere for the kerchief tied at the
          > back of the neck as the sole headdress.
          >
          > Brangwayna

          I know I was bad on Sunday with the coif-tied-in-a-knot-at-the-
          back... but sitting in my basket were the wimple and veil that were
          *supposed* to go on over that for the evening. I was just so
          abjectly miserable with hay fever that I couldn't face dealing with
          them. :( I also wound up playing my Boehm-system flute for several
          pieces, so all in all not a good authenticity day for me. <sigh> It
          looked like other people were having fun, though...

          I'm really mostly responding to this message because I wanted to get
          out a small note for those who were at the Alle's Faire event: It
          may be a little late, but please have someone check you very
          carefully for deer ticks, which are *very* small and hard to see. I
          came home with two, only one of which I would ever have found on my
          own.

          -Sabine
        • Allyson Tripp Rozell
          I ve found that wearing a lightweight veil over my mouth and nose does help cut down my hay fever reaction. It certainly doesn t filter out everything, but it
          Message 4 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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            I've found that wearing a lightweight veil over my mouth and nose does help
            cut down my hay fever reaction. It certainly doesn't filter out everything,
            but it does seem to reduce my exposure. Plus it is likely to be a period
            solution!

            Allyson

            At 04:49 PM 6/1/04 +0000, you wrote:

            >-but sitting in my basket were the wimple and veil that were
            >*supposed* to go on over that for the evening. I was just so
            >abjectly miserable with hay fever that I couldn't face dealing with
            >them. :(
            > -Sabine

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          • wodeford
            ... to get ... wearing ... Colonial House was set up to provide the colonists with authentic clothing and living conditions and two weeks worth of training
            Message 5 of 30 , Jun 1, 2004
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              --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Willow Polson <willow@c...>
              wrote:
              > Right..... but AFAIK they were extremely careful in Colonial House
              to get
              > everything completely authentically correct, and I saw women
              wearing
              > "kerchief-like" head coverings tied in the back....

              "Colonial House" was set up to provide the colonists with authentic
              clothing and living conditions and two weeks worth of training at
              Plimoth Plantation on how to chop wood without taking off a foot and
              so on. Once they turned their colonists loose without supervision,
              entropy and modern attitudes had their way. There was a great deal
              of shimmying into pre-laced corsets and not bothering to adjust the
              lacing. I have to wonder how much hair made it into the pease
              pottage because nobody ever put it up into anything neater than a
              ponytail. I would take the "Colonial House" do-rags with a grain of
              salt.

              Besides, I saw that Bethany kid smuggling bobbypins back from Texas.
              ;->

              Have you seen the ladies' headwear at Historic Enterprises?
              http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart.php?m=product_list&c=16

              There are some styles that are appropriate for the 15th and 16th
              century that may give you some ideas.

              Tuppenceworth,
              Jehanne de Wodeford
            • ketamina06
              ... wrote: Once they turned their colonists loose without supervision, ... the ... of ... That s the issue that bothers me the most: folks like us who really
              Message 6 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "wodeford" <wodeford@y...>
                wrote:
                Once they turned their colonists loose without supervision,
                > entropy and modern attitudes had their way. There was a great deal
                > of shimmying into pre-laced corsets and not bothering to adjust
                the
                > lacing. I have to wonder how much hair made it into the pease
                > pottage because nobody ever put it up into anything neater than a
                > ponytail. I would take the "Colonial House" do-rags with a grain
                of
                > salt.

                That's the issue that bothers me the most: folks like us who really
                want to try and recreate...LIVE... history are sitting on the wrong
                side of the television! I watch shows like Colonial House (and
                before that, the Pioneer series) and Survivor and wonder, where do
                they get these people? Of course I understand that ratings require
                the stars of the show to struggle through difficulty, but I get more
                satisfaction out of watching people do things right (to the best of
                our knowledge) and do them well.

                I begin to wonder if the lot of us are just plain certifiable, but
                then I remember that we focus on these aspects of history for many
                good and explainable reasons. So, when are WE going to get to be
                guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                situations that last longer than a weekend?

                Come on PBS, when does Medieval Village start airing?!

                :) Whew, rant over.

                L. Keterlyn LeFave
              • Willow Polson
                ... Off the street, apparently.... I think that s the intention, the fish out of water thing. Makes better TV, and, as someone else pointed out, the normal
                Message 7 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                  At 04:00 PM 6/2/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                  >I watch shows like Colonial House (and
                  >before that, the Pioneer series) and Survivor and wonder, where do
                  >they get these people?

                  Off the street, apparently.... I think that's the intention, the "fish out
                  of water" thing. Makes better TV, and, as someone else pointed out, the
                  "normal" people watching the show (i.e. not us) can relate to them better.

                  >So, when are WE going to get to be
                  >guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                  >situations that last longer than a weekend?

                  Heh..... don't hold yer breath. Although maybe some well-placed letters
                  would generate a new kind of reality show, eh? "Reenactor House".....
                  hmmm...! 8-)

                  >Come on PBS, when does Medieval Village start airing?!

                  Yeah, I've been wishing for that one since seeing 1900 House. 8-)

                  - Willow MacPherson

                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                  Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                  Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                  http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                • msgilliandurham
                  ... [...]I watch shows like Colonial House (and ... Unfortunately, probably never :-( During a Washington Post online chat with the exectutive producer, Beth
                  Message 8 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                    --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, "ketamina06" <ketamina06@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    [...]I watch shows like Colonial House (and
                    > before that, the Pioneer series) and Survivor and wonder, where do
                    > they get these people? [...]So, when are WE going to get to be
                    > guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                    > situations that last longer than a weekend?

                    Unfortunately, probably never :-(

                    During a Washington Post online chat with the exectutive producer,
                    Beth Hoppe (see http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42718-
                    2004May20.html, requires registration) Ms. Hoppe specifically stated
                    that they didn't want anyone who was an "expert" on the time period.

                    Personally, I quit watching after the first night -- too much
                    sociology and not enough anthopology for me :-)

                    Gillian Durham
                  • aheilvei
                    So, when are WE going to get to be ... It s called Pennsic, and Estrella, and Rowany, and Gulf Wars. If you re bringing your cooler and your sneakers and your
                    Message 9 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                      So, when are WE going to get to be
                      > guests on a show like this, and try our mettle against 'real life'
                      > situations that last longer than a weekend?
                      >
                      >

                      It's called Pennsic, and Estrella, and Rowany, and Gulf Wars. If
                      you're bringing your cooler and your sneakers and your flashlight,
                      and all your other modern 'camping' amenities to these events,
                      you're denying yourself the opportunity to live as people see on
                      these sorts of reality shows.

                      As for when someone who knows something will appear on one of these
                      types of television shows - whenever they submit an application for
                      the show and are accepted as part of the cast.

                      Smiles,
                      Despina
                    • Willow Polson
                      ... ROTFL! Yes, someday I ll be able to get to one of those..... 8-) I m hoping for Estrella next year... ... Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that.
                      Message 10 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                        At 07:54 PM 6/2/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                        >It's called Pennsic, and Estrella, and Rowany, and Gulf Wars.

                        ROTFL! Yes, someday I'll be able to get to one of those..... 8-) I'm hoping
                        for Estrella next year...

                        > If
                        >you're bringing your cooler and your sneakers and your flashlight,
                        >and all your other modern 'camping' amenities to these events,
                        >you're denying yourself the opportunity to live as people see on
                        >these sorts of reality shows.

                        Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that. 8-) If only I had a
                        stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give me period foods
                        and tools..... *sigh* THEN we'd be getting somewhere! LOL

                        - Willow (oatmeal, breakfast of champions) MacPherson
                      • aheilvei
                        ... had a stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give me period foods and tools..... *sigh* THEN we d be getting somewhere! LOL ... And what
                        Message 11 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                          > Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that. 8-) If only I
                          had a stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give
                          me period foods and tools..... *sigh* THEN we'd be getting
                          somewhere! LOL
                          >
                          >

                          And what is available here? A bulging compilation of resources in
                          the files, links, and database sections for everyone who joins this
                          group - as well as the archives, there is a lot in the archives.

                          Don't know how to make non-cooler camping food? look though the
                          archives or in the files section; in the files section you'll find a
                          folder labled "Events without a cooler". Some of it's as easy as
                          anything considered 'normal' today - poached eggs, what we now call
                          French toast, cheese, fruit, sausages, stews, and more!

                          Not sure about the new dress you want to make? The links section has
                          a folder titled, "clothing" and another titled, "Fabrics" so you can
                          find the fabric to make the clothing. Tons of websites with tips and
                          hints. The files section also has a lot of hints and tips on how to
                          make stuff and the archives are just chock full of such things.

                          The information is there for everyone to use. Putting it to use is
                          up to those who have it at their fingertips.

                          Despina
                        • Allyson Tripp Rozell
                          Sure, the info is there (well, a lot of it, anyway), but where are the servants to implement it?!? Or at least to do my mundane chores so I can get at it
                          Message 12 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                            Sure, the info is there (well, a lot of it, anyway), but where are the
                            servants to implement it?!?
                            Or at least to do my mundane chores so I can get at it myself...

                            Allyson, wanting some authentic servants

                            At 12:19 AM 6/3/04 +0000, you wrote:


                            > > Yep..... absoposilutely. Or something like that. 8-) If only I
                            >had a stable of experts at my beck and call to clothe me and give
                            >me period foods and tools..... *sigh* THEN we'd be getting
                            >somewhere! LOL
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >And what is available here? A bulging compilation of resources in
                            >the files, links, and database sections for everyone who joins this
                            >group - as well as the archives, there is a lot in the archives.
                            >...
                            >Despina

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                          • Willow Polson
                            ... Right.... but I meant I was hoping for free clothes and food and tools like the Colonial House folks... then we d be getting somewhere! 8-) - Willow
                            Message 13 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                              At 12:19 AM 6/3/2004 +0000, you wrote:
                              >And what is available here? A bulging compilation of resources in
                              >the files, links, and database sections for everyone who joins this
                              >group - as well as the archives, there is a lot in the archives.

                              Right.... but I meant I was hoping for free clothes and food and tools like
                              the Colonial House folks... then we'd be getting somewhere! 8-)

                              - Willow MacPherson


                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Rev. Willow Polson www.willowsplace.com
                              Give my Pagan Paradise Live365 Radio Station a listen!
                              http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=willowpolson
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                            • Tiffany Brown / Lady Teffania Tukerton
                              I ve tried this style and had one problem - my hair is rather thick (such that half my hair plaited can pass for annother s whole hair plait), as well as hip
                              Message 14 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                I've tried this style and had one problem - my hair is rather thick
                                (such that half my hair plaited can pass for annother's whole hair
                                plait), as well as hip length. (longer now - I need a longer veil to
                                do this). So with the hair twisted into the turban, I get a rather
                                bulky outer rim of the turban, noticeably thicker on the side that the
                                hair went to first. The weight is also lopsided, and gets a bit tiring
                                by the end of the day (and probably helps pull the turban undone
                                quicker (ie after an hour or two) that if it were more even (a longer
                                cloth would probably help here).

                                Anyway, has anyone else had this problem and found a solution? I've
                                tried putting my hair inside the turban, but it doesn't work well with
                                just a plait, and doing a hairstyle kinda destroys the convenience of
                                the quick turban. (and the turban slips easier) Meanwhile I'll
                                experiment with other turban styles when the need arises, but I though
                                it was worth asking.


                                Teffania
                                p.s. inauthentic very hot weather cheat, to help you cope with
                                temperatures way above those such clothing came from - slip a few
                                iceblocks into your turban. As they melt the gentle drip of cool
                                water down your neck may keep you smiling while others shed layers and
                                headwear to a level of undressedness that would be shockingly rude in
                                most medieval periods and places. Probably less effective in highly
                                humid climates like pennsic, but works well in hot dryish ones.



                                --- In Authentic_SCA@yahoogroups.com, Karen Hall <karenh@c...> wrote:
                                >
                                > My favourite easy period head covering is a style called a trezendo
                                (not sure if
                                > I've spelled that right, but anyway). I've seen it used with 15th
                                and 16th
                                > century Spanish women's clothing, and in 15th century Italian
                                pictures (mainly
                                > for older, non-upperclass women). I like it because a) it is really
                                easy and
                                > comfortable and b) it suit's almost any hair length, and hides short
                                hair
                                > well.
                              • Kristen Dahle
                                So with the hair twisted into the turban, I get a rather ... hair went to first. The weight is also lopsided, Just a thought-- Have you tried putting your hair
                                Message 15 of 30 , Jun 2, 2004
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                                  So with the hair twisted into the turban, I get a rather
                                  > bulky outer rim of the turban, noticeably thicker on the side that the
                                  hair went to first. The weight is also lopsided,

                                  Just a thought--
                                  Have you tried putting your hair into two braids, putting the center of the
                                  cloth over the top of your head, wrapping each braid separately with either
                                  end of the cloth, and then wrapping the two braids around your head from
                                  opposite directions? I've never tried this with a hair wrap, but I've done
                                  it with just my hair to get a more even around-the-head look under veiling.
                                  I can do this with two braids that start more or less straight down my back
                                  (the bulk ends up mostly at my neck then) or with braids that start over my
                                  ears.

                                  Pax,
                                  Elisa
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